Demo charge and bocage glitch(?) + other questions/comments

[FragerZ]

1) Is this a glitch??

Before explosion

Side view. Note that it is clear that the front bocage has been selected.

After explosion

This has happened to me in 3 different scenarios so far, and it only happens when a road is placed between bocage. It seems to happen only in certain places of certain maps, and I haven't been able to notice a pattern as to which areas it happens in.

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2) I used to always ride squads ontop of tanks in CMAK. Are tanks completely un-ridable in CMBN?

3) When grabbing ammo from halftracks, I've noticed the difference between 7mm and 7mmAP ammo. Are they treated exactly the same, and can infantry fully use the 7mmAP ammo that they grab from half tracks?

4) Is there a "converging" move order? When I select several units, I want them to all move to the same location - not in parallel locations to where I click. Often when they receive this parallel move location, it will end up being on the other side of impassable terrain, and so they will plot wildly different move orders than the rest of the units. So, is there a movement modifier, say, "hold shift", that will issue a converging move order?

5) When I make a mortar team target area, is there a way to prevent them from also using their weapons, when they still have mortar rounds remaining? I played a game where they ended up giving their position away while firing both their carbines, and their mortar. If you do not think this is possible, I will append screenshots of this happening.

6) I have edited the hotkeys.txt file... But I can't edit the "cancel order" hotkey! When I look through the file, this seems to be the only button that can't be rebound

[Blackcat]

The dreaded blast command, always a bugger. I think your answer lies in your screen shots. Your engineers are lying tight against the hedgerow, so tight that the blast waypoint is behind them. What can the game interpret from that fact? Well he obviously means we should blow the first thing that is behind us, i.e. the opposite hedge.

The blast command works beautifully, first time, every time, provided the blast waypoint is put on the far side of whatever it is you want to blow your way through. The problems only seem to occur when one tries to make the breach but stay on the "home side". There were lots of discussions about this on the CMSF forum, including, I think, a sticky which gave precise and detailed instructions of how it could be achieved. I never got any of them to work but others did, apparently.

[LemoN]

The blast command works beautifully, first time, every time, provided the blast waypoint is put on the far side of whatever it is you want to blow your way through.

Not exactly true, I have yet to get a squad that occupies two squares to blow a hole in a hedge.

Try as I might, they just lie around doing nothing.

[Wodin]

Check the tactics sticky in CMSF forum to find out how to blast holes in bocage\buildings\walls....loads of good info there.

[Pak40]

You need to use the blast command ACROSS the hedgerow that you want to blow. Simply placing it near a hedgerow may not get the job done. The unfortunate downside to doing this is that your unit immediately goes through the blasted hedgerow whether you want them to or not.

Also, in answer to #5, try setting a small fire arc/radius so that the mortars will hold fire. If you're doing direct fire then take the arc off when you're ready for them to fire. If you're not doing direct fire then you should move them back out of LOS of the enemy and use HQs to spot. The arc is also a good thing to do for all HQ and spotting units if you do not want them to give away their position.

[JonS]

Not exactly true, I have yet to get a squad that occupies two squares to blow a hole in a hedge.

Try as I might, they just lie around doing nothing.

You must be doing something fairly basic wrong, though based on your short description it's impossible to say what that is. I have had no trouble, ever, getting multi-part squads to blast through a hedge (or building wall). Over the last couple of days I've been playing a campaign that had US Para squads blasting their way forward in almost every battle.

[Peregrine]

Blasting "away" from the target as the screenshot depicts seems to be safer for your guys but odd things like that do happen.

Blasting "sideways" almost always gets the right result but your troops will be more exposed. I tend to go with this. The main problem occurs with a second blast to widen a gap for a tanks. Sometimes the original breach is not enlarged and a new small one is made.

Blasting "across" the obstruction (exactly like the manual says) works fine everytime I have used it but can be dangerous or suicidal.

The game mechanics around this command are a little clumsy.

[Offshoot]

If there is a pattern to this, it could be used to overcome the desire of the breach teams to charge through the hole to admire their work in some situations. Simply set your team to blast the opposite bocage to that you really want to breach when the opportunity avails itself - work-behind as a workaround.

[TheVulture]

The blast command will blow up the nearest obstacle within 16 meters or so in the direction of the blast move. As others have said, in the screenshot the movement indicated by the blast command is towards the rear hedge, so that is indeed the one they destroy.

The way to do it without charging through the hole is to put e.g. a quick move to one action spot away from the hedge, then the blast move to go directly to the hedge but not past it. That sets the direction to the way you want your men to go, but doesn't plot a waypoint on the far side of the hedge so they don't chanrge through to their doom.

However, although that works fine when dealing with an isolated wall / hedge / building, when you have .e.g two parallel hedges down either side of the road it hasn't proved 100% reliable for me. I haven't yet done the testing to find out a set of commands that will always work. There will be one (I hope...) but it might take a bit of care.

[womble]

2) I used to always ride squads ontop of tanks in CMAK. Are tanks completely un-ridable in CMBN?

Yes. It has been decided that troops in Normandy did not ride tanks into combat, only to the edge of combat, where they dismounted before getting into the ruck. Any anomalous occurrences where troops hitching a lift did come under fire are considered insufficient reason to prioritise the coding of animations and such over other things that did make it in.

4) Is there a "converging" move order?

Nope.

6) I have edited the hotkeys.txt file... But I can't edit the "cancel order" hotkey! When I look through the file, this seems to be the only button that can't be rebound

Indeed. I think this is because the default (direct) key is 'Del' which is the kind of key that can't be mapped in the hotkeys file.

[FragerZ]

Yes. It has been decided that troops in Normandy did not ride tanks into combat, only to the edge of combat, where they dismounted before getting into the ruck. Any anomalous occurrences where troops hitching a lift did come under fire are considered insufficient reason to prioritise the coding of animations and such over other things that did make it in.

Nope.

Indeed. I think this is because the default (direct) key is 'Del' which is the kind of key that can't be mapped in the hotkeys file.

sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry. I didn't mean "cancel order". I meant "cancel target".

[Baneman]

I thought the way to stop your engineers charging through the gap they blast is to put your first blast command on the far side of the hedge and a second on this side ?

[WineCape]

You need to use the blast command ACROSS the hedgerow that you want to blow. Simply placing it near a hedgerow may not get the job done. The unfortunate downside to doing this is that your unit immediately goes through the blasted hedgerow whether you want them to or not.

Indeed Gents, thats how it's usually done if you want you troops to go through (auto).

WRT Engineers auto-movement through the blasted hole, due to the blast command being also a 'movement' command at same time during this specific exercise: If you want NO movement through the hedge automatically, do this:

and the result is if you want no auto-movement ..

The BLAST order on your own side of the hedge => abstracted, in that your troops will seek cover and so forth, so fear no friendly casualties due to this.

I tested it with many hedges and roads between 2 bocages as per your issue and used several engineer squads in various places along the various hedges to blast holes and it seems to work as intended, every time.So far unable to replicate this reported via a test scenario.

I thought the way to stop your engineers charging through the gap they blast is to put your first blast command on the far side of the hedge and a second on this side ?

That is what you do if you want to blast 2 holes for AFV's -- on the same spot/gap - as the 2nd blast command on the same spot or existing hole will now be big enough for a AFV to drive through; a single gap = too small for a tank.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

[Fetchez la Vache]

That is what you do if you want to blast 2 holes for AFV's -- on the same spot/gap - as the 2nd blast command on the same spot or existing hole will now be big enough for a AFV to drive through; a single gap = too small for a tank.

Can someone explain to me the mechanics behind blasting "little holes" (infantry only) and "big holes" (AVF and PBI)?

From my games I'm under the impression (wrongly or rightly) that it's either random or else there's a dependency on placement of the blast command and angle of 'attack'. Either way I end up getting a bit frustrated trying to consistently blast AFV-sized holes in WeGo mode. I admit that I often simply do a "save game" and keeping trying different blast combos until I get the result I want - that's not going to work in PBEM though. :-)

Any suggestions gratefully received. Thanks!

[futon river crossing]

Looks like another sticky for the non existent Tactics forum

[WineCape]

Can someone explain to me the mechanics behind blasting "little holes" (infantry only) and "big holes" (AVF and PBI)?

From my games I'm under the impression (wrongly or rightly) that it's either random or else there's a dependency on placement of the blast command and angle of 'attack'. Either way I end up getting a bit frustrated trying to consistently blast AFV-sized holes in WeGo mode. I admit that I often simply do a "save game" and keeping trying different blast combos until I get the result I want - that's not going to work in PBEM though. :-)

Any suggestions gratefully received. Thanks!

Well, what works for me, every time, is this, as explained above, but to be clearer:

To blast a hole (all first time holes on a specific hedge section will only be big enough for infantry movement) do as above in pictures.

To blast an AFV hole, you have to repeat the same procedure EXACTLY at the same spot of the previous blasted hole. An AFV hole can only, AFAIK with engineers, be accomplished by a 2nd BLAST command on the exact same hedge/bocage section where you effected your first BLAST (INF Hole) command.

Thus:

1 x BLAST = INF HOLE

2 x BLAST = AFV HOLE (on exact same spot/section as above)

Alternatively, American Rhino-fitted AFV's (patch v1.01 will give additional Rhino-fitted AFV's for month of Aug44) can plough through bocages - also in reverse, a known bug. Charles cannot fix this easily at moment. But be careful: every time a Rhino-fitted AFV goes Rambo style through bocage, there's a chance the AFV's tracks will get damaged, progressively so.

Hope this helps.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Not sure reversing through bocage would have been recommended in combat. :-)

Thanks for the info. This certainly chimes with what I'm seeing in the current game I'm playing (Deville). But sometimes I have definitely seen "big holes" blasted in one go, in both large and small bocage - maybe I was widening an existing hole without realizing it?

I think some further Blast practice is required...

[Fetchez la Vache]

Just spent 20mins blowing up bits of bocage on Les Licornets (not Deville, I got mixed up).

I can definitely blows AFV holes with one charge. The size of the hole doesn't appear to be random since you can save-load and repeat a blast path the with same result each time (well up to times 10, which is when I got bored). But the exact angle of the blast path does seem to affect the size, but not in any way I can easily predict since some bits of bocage seem to blow in different ways.

When my patience levels are back up I might conduct a more complete test with a combination of different paths and action points. Or I might not. Playing is more fun. :-)

[Jonny(FGM)]

The size of the hole doesn't appear to be random since you can save-load and repeat a blast path the with same result each time (well up to times 10, which is when I got bored).

Perhaps the size isn't random, but the strength of the bocage is? certain spots of bocage are set to be weaker and will blow a vehicle sized hole every time.

Best way i've found to get a vehicle sized hole in one charge is to blast diagonally across an existing mini gap in the bocage

[para]

Just spent 20mins blowing up bits of bocage on Les Licornets (not Deville, I got mixed up).

I can definitely blows AFV holes with one charge. The size of the hole doesn't appear to be random since you can save-load and repeat a blast path the with same result each time (well up to times 10, which is when I got bored). But the exact angle of the blast path does seem to affect the size, but not in any way I can easily predict since some bits of bocage seem to blow in different ways.

When my patience levels are back up I might conduct a more complete test with a combination of different paths and action points. Or I might not. Playing is more fun. :-)

I was getting totally frustrated with the blast command and only getting a small hole. Then I placed a 1 x blast command along the bocage on my side and the blast left a hole big enough for tanks to go through.

[Erwin]

USUALLY a single charge will only blast a small hole - it does depend on the angle of attack. SOMETIMES, you can order a blast at an angle to the bocage and one charge will give you a hole big enuff for an AFV. This is important as one usually does not have as many charges as one wants.

USUALLY you can widen an existing small hole with a single charge to make an AFV-sized hole.

However, SOMETIMES you can use two charges in succession and you still only get a small hole! Very frustrating when that happens.

Also frustrating is when you use a charge at an angle and get a small hole. Then you use another charge back at an angle over the same hole, and get a second small hole a few meters away - now requiring a third charge to widen one of them!

[para]

USUALLY a single charge will only blast a small hole - it does depend on the angle of attack. SOMETIMES, you can order a blast at an angle to the bocage and one charge will give you a hole big enuff for an AFV. This is important as one usually does not have as many charges as one wants.

USUALLY you can widen an existing small hole with a single charge to make an AFV-sized hole.

However, SOMETIMES you can use two charges in succession and you still only get a small hole! Very frustrating when that happens.

Also frustrating is when you use a charge at an angle and get a small hole. Then you use another charge back at an angle over the same hole, and get a second small hole a few meters away - now requiring a third charge to widen one of them!

Had all of the above and isn't it bloody annoying? Anyway, Erwin i used the engineers to place a blast command in a line along my side of the Bocage and it blew a large hole. Large enough for AFV's to pass through. Normally i only ever get a single small hole which infantry can only pass through.

When i did it again it blew another hole the same size. See below e=engineers B=bocage -----= move to and x blast

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

eeeeee-----------x

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB__large hole__BBBBBBB

--------------------eeeeee

[Erwin]

That's what I meant by "an angle to the bocage". But, there must be some other parameters like the angle of the bocage itself(?) as sometimes it does not work as you described. In CMBN there are quite a few effects that are not 100% repeatable.

[para]

That's what I meant by "an angle to the bocage". But, there must be some other parameters like the angle of the bocage itself(?) as sometimes it does not work as you described. In CMBN there are quite a few effects that are not 100% repeatable.

I will get chance to test it further I am just about to start a PBEM and it's all Bocage.