Quick Battle Limitations

[HarryB]

I’m a little disappointed with the formations available for choosing when the player is doing his force selection at the beginning of a quick battle. Even for the smaller engagements I’m almost compelled to select a battalion level formation and then completely gut it. I would like to see more company and platoon level formations that are selectable. I primarily play quick battles and one of the things I liked best about CMx1 was that I could customize my forces to my liking; I really don’t care whether it is historical or not, I’m just looking for an interesting game. Maybe I want to add a platoon of Panthers to an infantry company, or add a company of grenadiers to a panzer battalion.

To me it almost seems like the people who selected the formations available for quick battles don’t play quick battles themselves. The way it is now, if I want to add a platoon of tanks I have to select an entire battalion and then pare it down as much as possible, which really makes it more of a pain than it is worth so I just end up selecting individual vehicles. I really don’t understand why company level formations aren’t available. Why should it be difficult to attach a company of Panzer IVs to a grenadier battalion? I also find it curious that you can’t even select what type of tank you want when you select a panzer battalion, sometimes you get Panthers, sometimes you get Panzer IVs.

The situation with infantry is much the same, if I want to add a company or platoon I must add the battalion and then pare it down as much as possible. I don’t understand the logic of this. If I can add individual vehicles to the chain of command, why is it a problem to add companies or platoons? The formations are there within the battalions, all it takes is someone to break them out and make them available for selection.

One additional thing I would like to see is the ability to adjust the force level of the defender like you now can for the attacker. I would like to be able to set up an evenly matched meeting engagement quick battle with more than the 7200 points currently available for a Huge battle, but the only side that can be adjusted is the attacker.

[panzermartin]

EDIT- misread the post sorry

[nik mond]

I was just thinkin that. Also in the scenario editor. Being a relative newcomer to the series, I would have thought formations for purchase would default at the company level. By the time you field 2 companies plus ats and dets the maps are very populated.

[SNAFU]

You can trim those options down to what ever level you want. Having just started messing with that myself, I'll let someone with more experience tell you how. The reason it is set up the way this is way is for historical reasons, displaying formations as they actually were set up. It's easier to trim down to a company that to "trim up" to a battalion...

[Cull]

I'd have to agree in principal. It seems that the new QB system, while amazing in scope, still doesn't make simple cherry-picking, well....simple.

I play "tiny" (or super-tiny) QBs about 75% of the time. I would love to just be able to jump in, grab a company of infantry, add a couple tanks, and play, not worrying about rarity limitations or having to pare down Battalion-sized elements, etc.

The first time I got the "please select a formation first" message I thought "Seriously?" *sigh*

I remember something in the manual explaining the logic behind the design; I'll have to go back and read it. Why not just let me pop open a Panzer Grenadier Battalion, yank a company out of it, and purchase it?

I was also wondering about the "force-balancing" thing. If I pick say 500 pts does the AI match me, or does it go ahead and pick to the default "Tiny" level of +-1500 pts? If it's the latter than it seems there's no way to get a "fair" fight in sub-Tiny QBs.

[flamingknives]

The people who selected the formations almost certainly did not play QBs, as the formations available are based on the deployed formations of the time.

With a bit of practice it is pretty quick to whittle the larger formations down. The added advantage is that you can see what support formation would typically be deployed in support of your chosen core unit.

[Rafter11]

I found the QB unit selection system to be a little intimidating at first, but if you start the delete process from the bottom of the unit list and work up, it works pretty fast. I have gotten used to it.

It would be nice to have a back button to take you back to the previous page

[HarryB]

I don't think 'historical reasons' explain the lack of options. Individual vehicles are selectable and attach to whatever formation you have selected. Why is that different than attaching a company or platoon?

[Cull]

The reason it is set up the way this is way is for historical reasons, displaying formations as they actually were set up. It's easier to trim down to a company that to "trim up" to a battalion...

Ah yes, that's (I believe) what the manual says. I should say that I do prefer to be historically accurate in my battles for the most part, but I see no harm (or difficulty) in letting me not be, if I choose.

Why not just put a "Pure Cherry-Pick" option in the "Formations/Single Units/Specialty" drop-down (with maybe a message that says "Yeah yeah, go ahead, you gamey loser, pick whatever you want!" ) and let us go to town?

Sometimes I just want to fire up a game as quickly as possible get at it. As it is, I find myself spending twenty minutes just trying to get the size of force that I want. Even then, I sometimes stymied by the "rarity" factor and have to adjust even more.

[drtechno]

With a bit of practice it is pretty quick to whittle the larger formations down. The added advantage is that you can see what support formation would typically be deployed in support of your chosen core unit.

While I initially agreed with the starting poster, I have come to the same conclusion as 'flamingknives'.. even on a small unit level, while a bit of a pain at first, its nice to see what typically might be seen with this particular formation.. it sometimes changes my picks to be more 'historical' (ex- oh.. I see they typically had an MG section, ok, let me grab one of those instead)

[akd]

I remember something in the manual explaining the logic behind the design; I'll have to go back and read it. Why not just let me pop open a Panzer Grenadier Battalion, yank a company out of it, and purchase it?

It takes one mouse click and 6 presses of the backspace key to go from a PG battalion down to a single PG company.

Sometimes I just want to fire up a game as quickly as possible get at it. As it is, I find myself spending twenty minutes just trying to get the size of force that I want. Even then, I sometimes stymied by the "rarity" factor and have to adjust even more.

Set rarity to "none".

[SNAFU]

Why not just put a "Pure Cherry-Pick" option in the "Formations/Single Units/Specialty" drop-down (with maybe a message that says "Yeah yeah, go ahead, you gamey loser, pick whatever you want!" ) and let us go to town?

Sometimes I just want to fire up a game as quickly as possible get at it. As it is, I find myself spending twenty minutes just trying to get the size of force that I want. Even then, I sometimes stymied by the "rarity" factor and have to adjust even more.

I would certainly support that option. It's the reason I'm still "checking out" how it all works!

[HarryB]

Not that I really care about historical fidelity in the formations I am using in my quick battle, but it seems to me that the way it is now is even less realistic. If I want to add a platoon of engineers I have to add the engineer battalion and then chop it down to a platoon. I could end up with five battalion commanders on the field commanding a very small force which is a bit ridiculous to me.

[Rocky Balboa]

If I want to add a platoon of engineers I have to add the engineer battalion and then chop it down to a platoon. I could end up with five battalion commanders on the field commanding a very small force which is a bit ridiculous to me.

I believe you can also delete the HQ's so this would remove the excess leaders ....

[HarryB]

I believe you can also delete the HQ's so this would remove the excess leaders ....

No, you can't delete the battalion level HQ units, you also can't delete the company commander that the platoon you added was attached to, so you quickly end up with a whole bunch of high level commanders and very few troops to command.

[7thGalaxy]

I think it's set up like this so that the C&C network works. This is why you can't just pick anything - they need to have the C&C relationships defined.

[Baneman]

Well, I do like the new method of showing the historical formations.

The only problem I've found is knowing where to look for something.

Eg. While trying to create a map just to test something, I wanted a platoon of Pumas.

Hmmmm, where would they be ? It took me a good 20 minutes of breaking down larger formations to find someone who had Pumas in their TO&E.

Yes, I know I could have just added some individual vehicles, but if you want something formation specific, it can take a while to learn where it is.

My REAL beef is that when you're selecting a unit in CMx1, mousing over it tells you what it comprises.

That would be nice in CM:BN for the more ... generically .. named stuff.

ie. what is a Medium AT gun ? Is it a Pak50 or Pak75 ?

Or are you meant to be the commander on the battlefield not sure what you're getting ?

[akd]

No, you can't delete the battalion level HQ units, you also can't delete the company commander that the platoon you added was attached to, so you quickly end up with a whole bunch of high level commanders and very few troops to command.

Yes you can. Forum search might be in order.

Well, I do like the new method of showing the historical formations.

The only problem I've found is knowing where to look for something.

Eg. While trying to create a map just to test something, I wanted a platoon of Pumas.

Hmmmm, where would they be ? It took me a good 20 minutes of breaking down larger formations to find someone who had Pumas in their TO&E.

Yes, I know I could have just added some individual vehicles, but if you want something formation specific, it can take a while to learn where it is.

My REAL beef is that when you're selecting a unit in CMx1, mousing over it tells you what it comprises.

That would be nice in CM:BN for the more ... generically .. named stuff.

ie. what is a Medium AT gun ? Is it a Pak50 or Pak75 ?

Or are you meant to be the commander on the battlefield not sure what you're getting ?

It is generically named because you can select many options after you purchase. You can decide if the unit should have PaK 38s or PaK 40s.

[HarryB]

I think it's set up like this so that the C&C network works. This is why you can't just pick anything - they need to have the C&C relationships defined.

I don't think you've really read the post. There is nothing in it about violating the chain of command. The way things are set up now you have the choice to add individual vehicles or battalions, with nothin in the middle. The whole point of the post is that you should be able to add company and platoon level formations to the chain of command without having to add their battalion first. If individual vehicles can be added to the chain, there is no reason that these formations cannot be added as well.

[Rocky Balboa]

Originally Posted by HarryB View Post

No, you can't delete the battalion level HQ units, you also can't delete the company commander that the platoon you added was attached to, so you quickly end up with a whole bunch of high level commanders and very few troops to command.

I was playing around with the QB setup the other day and I'm pretty sure I did just that, I selected a BN then deleted everything except 1 Co including all the BN leaders and support units. Then added some individual stuff.

Don't have the game in front of me at the moment but I'll check it out later....

I will admit it took me a few mins to figure out that I had to select the BN first then delete what I didn't want but I was doing it without the manual and just trying to figure it out on my own.

[HarryB]

Yes you can. Forum search might be in order.

Well, when I am in the force selection screen and highlight the battalion commander, the only option I see is 'rename', the 'delete' button has disappeared. If there is some funky way to delete the battalion commander that is not obvious, that is just bad design. I should not have to search the forums to figure out how to perform a simple operation like that.

[akd]

Well, when I am in the force selection screen and highlight the battalion commander, the only option I see is 'rename', the 'delete' button has disappeared. If there is some funky way to delete the battalion commander that is not obvious, that is just bad design. I should not have to search the forums to figure out how to perform a simple operation like that.

You need to delete the Batt HQ subordinate first (e.g. HQ support team, XO team, vehicles, and indirect assets that are directly under the Batt HQ; basically any units in white text).

[mjkerner]

You can delete HQ's, unlike CMSF. But sometimes, and I can't recall exactly under what conditions, it seemed like I needed to deminimize and then maximize the unit (clicking on the "-" then clicking on the "+" again) before it would allow me to do so.

[Thin Red Line]

Well, when I am in the force selection screen and highlight the battalion commander, the only option I see is 'rename', the 'delete' button has disappeared.

I think you need to remove the Battalion HQ staff before you can delete the Battalion commander himself.

[Fenris]

Now that's odd... I've played 3 or 4 QB's. Each time I had the as described above problem where the battalion HQ only had the rename option and I couldn't delete it. Am 99% sure I deleted all the directly sub-ordinate units.

Reading this thread I've just tested it and I can delete the HQ as long as all the unit's reporting directly to the BHQ are gone.

Can only conclude I'd attached some stuff that stopped me deleting them before.

So try it again, you can delete the extra HQ's. And thanks for the tip on using backspace, much quicker.

-Fenris