For LemoN and other ppl who have problems with bocage.

[sburke]

So now I lob smoke over the bocage before Blasting. Saves my engineers with their precious loads of TNT but it does take an extra minute. Fortunately the scenario designers have been generous with the mission times so I don't mind too much.

Excellent tip. Another reason to keep visiting the forum. I really need to start jotting these down.

[Lurker765]

Funny, because in the last thread everyone reacted as if there were no limitations and as if I just made everything up or was too stupid to plot movement.

Also, I don't accept the reasoning behind "this is a tactical game" as everything that is easy in real life should be easy in a game like this. IRL the commander would simply tell the column which roads to take and where to turn, and this easily worked unless a vehicle bogged/broke down. As it stands now getting from point A to point B halfway across a map often takes up more time than the fighting itself. I play this game because it's a combat simulation, not because it's a traffic simulator.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys, looks like I'll simply have to put up with it and stop playing Bocage maps with loads of vehicles.

Pathfinding issues have been around this forum for a long, long time. The "accept the game limitations" advice is a good one. BFC is doing what they can to fix things, but they are a small shop with limited resources and lots of priorities. Either you can accept the game and learn to play it or you don't and find something else fun to do with your time IMHO.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=73223

[LemoN]

Not too likely that a lot of folks will extend their time, energy, or effort to help if there's a constant undercurrent of antipathy.

Especially if 20 *nice persons* jump in and spam the thread with useless crap, deliberately misread posts and build up baseless accusations, right?

[Cull]

Now that I see what LemoN is talking about, yeah....any of us that have been with CM for any amount of time must admit that moving columns of vehicles is a royal PITA in the game. Always had been, and apparently still is.

I'll further admit that I avoid having them as much as possible because I can't stand the tedium of moving them. Or, alternatively, I'll break them up as much as possible so that there's no more than a few together, if all possible.

I am surprised that it's not better at this point. Related, I'm surprised at the complete lack of collision-detection. The latter is really a non-issue for me; sure, it impacts the immersion but, well...there's so much more immersion in other ways that I can easily ignore it . Still, it's hard to avoid thinking "wow, what new games these days have such "clipping"issues?"

All that said, BF is quite clear about their philosophy regarding the allocation of resources and it's tough to argue with them when you step back and look at the overall results. Seeing how much data is getting jammed through the pipe at any given time in CMBN (a crap ton, by any measure), I am able to continue to forgive these annoyances in trade for the crazy amount of realism elsewhere.

My advice? Umm....avoid having columns of vehicles . Otherwise, what others already said.

EDIT: ^^^^Oh, LemoN.....*sigh*^^^^

[LemoN]

So, any suggestions on what to do with the dozens of HT's in the German campaign that continue to spawn and jam up your deployment zone?

In some maps I have found that dismounting the infantry and having them move somewhere (normal speed) is just way too slow for for the time-limit.

[Baneman]

My method is to break large groups/columns up into smaller chunks - ie. if I have, say, 12 vehicles to move down the road, I'll set the first 3 to go with smallish pauses between them, then a much longer pause before the next 3 go and so on.

This also gives the bulk of the vehicles a chance to "bug out" if the first couple run into trouble.

It's slower, but it takes less time, if you know what I mean.

[theFightingSeabee]

I use realtime, you can pause as often as you want. This makes it easier to deal with traffic jams.

[skelley]

One thing I do to help large columns is very the speed. Use the move command with small pauses for the first platoon. Use the slow command for the second platoon with small pauses. then as distance grows between the 2 platoons you can change the slow commands to move or hunt commands. Its a pain but it works pretty well.

Don't worry about the jackals that spring out every time you complain about a problem. They take as much time to get used to as it does to get used to the new game engine. A guy named Adam used to bring up issues with the game and the jackals would chew him a new one too. But I credit him with finding a lot of problems with the game engine and they eventually got fixed. But we always had the glass is overflowing folks giving him a hard time. So if you see a problem please point them out on the board...just know that some of the guys here are gonna act like you just said their baby was the ugliest baby ever to crawl this earth.

[LemoN]

One thing I do to help large columns is very the speed. Use the move command with small pauses for the first platoon. Use the slow command for the second platoon with small pauses. then as distance grows between the 2 platoons you can change the slow commands to move or hunt commands. Its a pain but it works pretty well.

That actually is a good idea! I've toyed with it before but didn't go all the way, I only varied the first half of the movement speeds, nothing in-between.

Now, this is what I'm going to try:

"-" is Normal, "." is slow

First one:

---------------

Second one:

.----.----.----

Third one:

.---..---..----

I have to try that again, although it makes plotting moves even more complicated than it already is. :-/

[Sgt Joch]

Especially if 20 *nice persons* jump in and spam the thread with useless crap, deliberately misread posts and build up baseless accusations, right?

Dont restart LemoN, you are new here and obviously excited about the game, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but there are some ground rules you should be aware of:

1. Dont bring up issues from a locked thread. To paraphrase another famous saying "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas".

2. Dont use personal insults against another forum member.

Abide by a few ground rules and you will find your stay here is a pleasant one.

[JonS]

As a general rule, I try not to move more than 4 or 5 vehicles (i.e., a platoon) down the same restricted route in a single 'convoy'.

Also, be aware that vehicles do have momentum (or is it inertia?). If you zip them up to a way point then give them a sharp turn to execute, they will overrun the waypoint and cause you all sorts of grief. For 90° turns I set a waypoint 10-20m back that is 'wide' on the corner, put another two or three short ones no faster than 'Move' leading up to and around the inside apex of the corner, then another 10-20m past the corner and 'wide' again, then carry on moving down the road. Sort of like the way F1 drivers approach a corner - slow and wide coming in, tight around the corner, then accelerate and drift wide on the way out.

I had some beaut traffic jams till I figured that out

[sburke]

Don't worry about the jackals that spring out every time you complain about a problem. They take as much time to get used to as it does to get used to the new game engine.

So if you see a problem please point them out on the board...just know that some of the guys here are gonna act like you just said their baby was the ugliest baby ever to crawl this earth.

OR learn to post in a constructive manner instead of provoking "the jackals". LemoN has a genuine question, but you aren't helping him figure out how to get the most out of the forum by just acting like it's everyone else's problem.

How come the guys who complain about how people respond NEVER seem to assume that they actually are in the driver seat and can set the tone? I do actually try to respond in a more conciliatory tone to take the edge out of some of these threads, but always playing the victim card gets real old when you post a like a nine year old throwing a toy at the wall. And I mean that generally not specifically - there are far too many threads that start with complaining about a game item with no attempt to understand why something is the way it is - "If I can't understand it, it must be wrong". BFC has already pointed out many things they see they want to work on and many of these threads are regurgitating the same items. The game has been out 3 whole days, let's give the play testers the benefit of the doubt that after playing sometimes for years, they just didn't overlook something blindingly obvious that you found in your first battle. Ask - the answer might be enlightening or maybe there is something wrong, but ask.

There are dozens and dozens of threads on perceived issues and very few generate so much angst. Overwhelmingly the community is very happy to respond with suggestion, tips etc. All you need do it just take it down a notch, put your thoughts or issue in a more constructive tone, provide some detail to help folks understand better what you are having an issue with and I can guarantee your whole experience will be better.

[LemoN]

Dont restart LemoN

Wait, he restarted it.

[Sgt Joch]

Wait, he restarted it.

It's all up to you big guy, locked and loaded here.

[Cymru]

Wait, he restarted it.

If there is one thing I have learned in 68 years it is that sometimes, even if you think you are right, just let it go.

[LemoN]

If there is one thing I have learned in 68 years it is that sometimes, even if you think you are right, just let it go.

I was joking, hence the smiley. :cool:

[skelley]

OR learn to post in a constructive manner instead of provoking "the jackals". LemoN has a genuine question, but you aren't helping him figure out how to get the most out of the forum by just acting like it's everyone else's problem.

How come the guys who complain about how people respond NEVER seem to assume that they actually are in the driver seat and can set the tone? I do actually try to respond in a more conciliatory tone to take the edge out of some of these threads, but always playing the victim card gets real old when you post a like a nine year old throwing a toy at the wall. And I mean that generally not specifically - there are far too many threads that start with complaining about a game item with no attempt to understand why something is the way it is - "If I can't understand it, it must be wrong". BFC has already pointed out many things they see they want to work on and many of these threads are regurgitating the same items. The game has been out 3 whole days, let's give the play testers the benefit of the doubt that after playing sometimes for years, they just didn't overlook something blindingly obvious that you found in your first battle. Ask - the answer might be enlightening or maybe there is something wrong, but ask.

There are dozens and dozens of threads on perceived issues and very few generate so much angst. Overwhelmingly the community is very happy to respond with suggestion, tips etc. All you need do it just take it down a notch, put your thoughts or issue in a more constructive tone, provide some detail to help folks understand better what you are having an issue with and I can guarantee your whole experience will be better.

Because I've watched too many threads degenerate in to attacks on people just because that person has the audacity to bring issues they find wrong with the game, to the forefront. While Adam may have overdone it when he got banned....he brought up great issues that most ended up getting resolved. All he ever got from the community here was grief. I'm just saying take a step back.... you've got no dog in this fight. Don't attack somebody because they raise issues. You may not see an issue with what is raised but the person who raises it does.

Over and over I see people use hyperbolic analogies whenever somebody says something is missing or wrong. Like... this feature is missing....Then you get somebody posting something like "yeah and we're missing the space lobsters too". Its as though far too many want to shut down any debate! Debate and complaining is why the engine is so much better than it was 4 years ago. Do you think BFC would have invested so much energy into making it better if we all would have been mind numbed robots droning on about how CMSF 1.0 was the best tactical game engine and everything was perfect. I'm not a business major but I think that would fall under the "If its not broke don't fix it, business model." Well it was broke and we let them know and they fixed it.... YAH complainers! We all want 1 thing....the best game possible.

I have been a loyal supporter of BFC since '99 and I love CMBN. I just don't want to stiffle debate. The issues raised are real issues. Maybe they are impossible to code, but they are issues.

How about a moratorium on attacks all the way around. Debate all aspects of the game with logic, reason and respect. If you can't convince somebody you are right....oh well, life goes on. This is a game don't take it personally.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Oh god, not this debate AGAIN.

Stop pretending that bringing up issues is treated as a crime here, punishable by written abuse. It is not. I recall c3k brought up quite a few issues in the past. He states clearly and calmly what he is seeing, what is wrong with what he is seeing, and where possible how it can be improved. And I would like to think this community hasn't abused him (much) for his troubles.

But people who make unhelpful posts... well, they get subjected to unhelpful posts in reply. That seems not too unjust. This community is wonderfully self correcting that way.

Don't like it? I fear that is just too damn tough, because it is a key factor in this forum remaining worth reading up upon. Try just about every other games related forum and you will discover they are generally populated by a bunch of hooting baboons that makes us look good, I assure you.

[skelley]

Oh god, not this debate AGAIN.

Stop pretending that bringing up issues is treated as a crime here, punishable by written abuse. It is not. I recall c3k brought up quite a few issues in the past. He states clearly and calmly what he is seeing, what is wrong with what he is seeing, and where possible how it can be improved. And I would like to think this community hasn't abused him (much) for his troubles.

But people who make unhelpful posts... well, they get subjected to unhelpful posts in reply. That seems not too unjust. This community is wonderfully self correcting that way.

Don't like it? I fear that is just too damn tough, because it is a key factor in this forum remaining worth reading up upon. Try just about every other games related forum and you will discover they are generally populated by a bunch of hooting baboons that makes us look good, I assure you.

No pretending at all. Look at most posts that are critical and you will see a whole cadre of people lining up to bust their nuts. How bout, if you don't have problem where the thread starter finds one...you move along to the next thread without flaming them. Seems simple but apparently not! The way I see it both sides of the aisle need to relax. Snarky comments tend to make both sides dig in their heals and get more adamant. And to prove the point...If my post bother you, well thats too damn tough...Deal with it.

[WillLight]

No pretending at all. Look at most posts that are critical and you will see a whole cadre of people lining up to bust their nuts. How bout, if you don't have problem where the thread starter finds one...you move along to the next thread without flaming them. Seems simple but apparently not! The way I see it both sides of the aisle need to relax. Snarky comments tend to make both sides dig in their heals and get more adamant. And to prove the point...If my post bother you, well thats too damn tough...Deal with it.

Oh so you're allowed to be bothered by how other people post but Elmar isn't? That's pretty cool!

[hoolaman]

The biggest issue with pathfinding is when a vehicle makes a decision to go around another vehicle or gets auto-pathed around some other obstacle. I'm not sure exactly what triggers this because generally they will follow your waypoint and pause if they hit another truck. But they will go around flavour objects like telephone poles and stuff.

Just remember that those jaggy diagonal roads are not "straight" in game terms. If you cut the corner and hit a bocage base you trucks will move off your path and get into trouble. Good spacing and multiple waypoints should always get you where you are going, It does take some time to set up but persistance will allow you to plot orders that you can be confident will work over long distnaces. Then you only have to do it once!

I'm of the opinion that the scenarios in the game shouldn't force you to march vehicles long distances through crappy labyrinths, but its unavoidable sometimes.

[Battlefront.com]

Oh so you're allowed to be bothered by how other people post but Elmar isn't? That's pretty cool!

Something that has always amused me as well.

The tone on this Forum is about as good as it can get. People are very tolerant of communications issues, especially since so many are using English as a 2nd or 3rd language. There are millions of posts on this Forum, right? I bet if a someone got a grant to analyze these posts they would find an EXTREMELY low incidence of constructive criticism being jumped on by anybody. Unconstructive criticism (e.g. rants, hyperbole, doggedly defending demonstrably incorrect statements, personal attacks, etc.) are nearly always at the root of problematic threads.

There are always those who say that it's the other way around, but it's not supported by the evidence. Such accusations are usually accompanied by derogatory terms and insults towards people. It's easy to spot and such comments have their own entertainment value in a way. Especially when I know how viciously some of these people act on other Forums which have near zero standards for decorum or respect for others. Kinda like a married minister/pasture preaching about the sanctity of marriage to his congregation and then going off to diddle his secretary at a pay-by-the-hour seedy motel. The holier-than-thou attitude can't be taken seriously.

If criticism wasn't allowed here, not to mention encouraged, the list of people banned would be in the thousands over the past 12 years. The real number is probably a few dozen for the tens of thousands of registered users here. Not a bad record to stand on, me thinks.

Steve

[Fetchez la Vache]

I have to disagree with some of the posters here and say that I do not think posts that criticize are jumped on by people refuting the issue. In fact I would say the precise opposite. I currently see several 'critical' posts with constructive discussion and no descent to the pits of flaming Peng. However I can see why it might be appear that way and I suggest it's related to visibility - flame war posts are more easily remembered and dominate.

It is important how criticims are expressed. As in Real Life it is better to couch posts on this Forum with a certain degree of decorum (and that is a general observation and not a commentary on anyone in particular). Maybe it's related to the 'older' demographic* here? Maybe it's a hangover from too many nerfed-Russian-armour and bren-tripod discussions. Maybe it's simply because there are some damn knowledgeable people posting here so it's always better to perform a recon probe before launching a Corps-level offensive. :-)

* I find myself in the that category now, much to my horror. Fatherhood has aged me rather more quickly than I like to admit...

[Battlefront.com]

My 2 cents worth on "convoy movement" issues...

Historically road marches are the most difficult for any military force to pull off successfully. Especially when enemy activities so much as threaten the force while on the move. Which is to say people should keep in mind that in real life coordinating a bunch of units moving down a twisty road is not an easy thing to do in real war. I'm saying this just to frame the problems within CM in context of the real world rather than to justify the game's shortcomings (and there most definitely are shortcomings).

CMx1 and CMx2 both have difficulty dealing with masses of units moved within tightly confined terrain. ESPECIALLY when the player has very specific expectations about where each unit should, or shouldn't, move. The standard work arounds in CMx1 are mostly still relevant for CMx2, though there are some new ones available. In general I would say there are three methods:

1. In WeGo use the Pause function to space out advances. In RealTime move one unit, then click on the next. Plot movement but don't finish plotting. This effectively keeps the unit paused. When the vehicle ahead has progressed a little bit, plot the remaining waypoint and go to the next unit.

2. Plot reasonably short movements when in tight situations. Smaller paths equals more certainty of outcome. And since we don't have Command Delays in CMx2 you WeGo players don't need to worry about the old CMx1 penalty for plotting units each turn.

3. Make sure to plot the next unit's waypoints "behind" the more forward unit. This way they don't try to enter the same exact spot.

By and large #2 is the key to not only better unit movement but better combat results. Less is often, very often in fact, more when it comes to slowing down tactical movement. #3 is also very important since trying to get 10 units to go to the same exact spot is just asking for trouble. #1 isn't too much of an issue for either WeGo (compared to CMx1) or RealTime, it just has to be paid attention to when things are congested.

Pathfinding is one of those types of things that programmers take special classes on at school just to get their end results not suck too badly. It's extremely difficult to do, and it can be crushing to the CPU. We do the best we can with the variables we have to work with. Players need to do the same to get the best results. Meaning, we've given the player a lot of tools to use in order to get reasonably consistent and desirable outcome, but if those tools aren't used or used well... inconsistent results will be the likely result.

Someday I hope we finally get a chance to implement the long desired "Follow" command. It's been a request since 1999, in fact. Since it's really only a major benefit to congested road movement, and yet is quite an investment to code/test, it keeps getting pushed off the immediate ToDo List. Maybe next major release it will finally happen.

Steve

[Dragotin]

Has anyone tried just giving a single waypoint to the leading vehicle, another to the second with 30 second pause, then continue in the following turns for the rest?