For LemoN and other ppl who have problems with bocage.

[Jaws]

To all, putt your effort in improving the game and help eachother.....

One thing to make things clear is a screenshot or a movie.

Windows Vista and Windows 7 have problems to make screenshots with PrtScn button.

Download a program like Fraps to make a screenshot or even a movie.

http://www.fraps.com/

Passing a hedgerow in CMBN.

1: Take the wooden fence/door

2: Hedgerows have infantry gaps (check them before you give an order)

3: Use an engineer team

4: Use a vehicle equipped with a Rhino

Check video.

I hope it helps.

[Waaarg]

"If theres no video, it didn't happen" - Random Forum Wisdom

There was nothing of substance to the last bash thread, so didn't post in it. If your going to rip a game apart at least do a better job then "NT!"

[Cull]

Gadwin PrintScreen is another excellent, lightweight screencap program, and free.

No movies though.

[~Viajero]

Excellent video Jaws! Thanks.

[General_solomon]

Jaws, love the video. can you record a couple scenerios. I have watched all the cmsf vids and would like to curle up with Video AAR on the weekends.

I personal do not have any issues with pathfinding. also, the bocage war fighting was tough so if there are any issues, a minor once in a blue moon isssu, i consider it as an added realism to the game.

I have also found that too many waypoints confuses the units. in your scenrio, I would have plotted one waypoint to the bocage and another to the other side. this way the unit does not make too many pauses.

[LemoN]

Thanks for the video Jaws, although that's not really what I've got a problem with.

Will post screenshots soon.

[Jaws]

Thx

@Solomon sorry I will leave AAR vids to Tyrspawn and others

@LemoN Ok will check the screen and see if I can help

[sburke]

To all, putt your effort in improving the game and help eachother.....

One thing to make things clear is a screenshot or a movie.

Passing a hedgerow in CMBN.

1: Take the wooden fence/door

2: Hedgerows have infantry gaps (check them before you give an order)

3: Use an engineer team

4: Use a vehicle equipped with a Rhino

I hope it helps.

Yeah actually having been a long time player of CMSF, now that I spend more time on the forums I am realizing how little I appreciated the command capability in CMx2. A lot of folks have complained about missing commands from CMx1. What I think the real problem is (at least I am finding this true for myself) is not understanding how to use the commands present in Cmx2. My game play is improving a lot simply by using shorter way points and utilizing pauses and target arcs at each waypoint to have my units prepared for likely axis of attacks.

The second aspect is being more patient. Get some eyes on the next field before you send anyone through that gap and even then send the scouts first. In addition when using Rhinos I tend to set them to slow just to break the gap and then reverse. Gives me an opening before I commit my tank to sticking it's nose all the way out there. You can also fire smoke first to obscure the view of anything that may want to plug a hole in your nice little Sherman if you suspect then enemy has any AT assets waiting.

If you think about how you might approach the situation in real life, you can likely recreate that plan within the existing commands very well. I think that is one of the items I am really enjoying about the interface so much and it will likely cause me to revisit CMSF again.

[LemoN]

What I did was simply place 2 platoons wirth of HT's on a map with some rather wide and straight bocage roads, issued waypoints, set them all on pause and let them loose in a 5-8 second succession. One halftrack got immobilised later on, that's unfortunate but it shows the AI's evasion techniques very well.

Well, see the results for yourself.

[LemoN]

[LemoN]

[Fredrock1957]

Another good program that is free and gives you many of the photoshop and paintshop pro tools is Gimp2

[LemoN]

The result is that I need to be really careful about plotting movement and need to constantly monitor the moving forces and be ready to pause any following units every single second they drive. I simply can't rely upon them even moving down a straight road (let alone turns) without clogging up. Note that this scenario here doesn't even roughly resemble the extremely confined roads and spaces of the German campaign missions 4 and 6, which quite increases the amounts of traffic jams and of course the amount of micromanaging and babysitting the units along a road. Also note that it took more than 12 minutes to get to the target area, in the realm of a normal scenario with more confined spaces moving up to my staging area consumes almost 50-60% of my entire mission time... it even went as far as 80%.

[George MC]

In CMX1 for moving vehicles in convoy I typically gave them at least a 10 second pause - 20s was better. Also I plotted shorter sections from decision point to decision point (decision point = road junction; possible ambush spot etc). I also kept speeds down if the road network was twisty turny, if it was twisty turny and I wanted stuff to move fast then I'd take care when plotting moves at corners. I find in CMX2 that the same drill works.

I don't plot such long movement chains as you did Lemon and I leave longer pauses (your speed looks good i.e. move) - several reasons.

1/ enemy action may KO one vehicle snarls the others and you are stuck in a godawful ambush.

2/ easier to control errant behavior if it happens - maybe vehicle bogs or spots enemy and stops/reverses etc

So not plotting such long convoys means you don't spend so long plotting such complex movement chains and if something goes wrong in your movement plan you ain't buggered up all that time spent plotting the plan.

So my advice would be:

• short movement plans from decision point to decision point.

• longer time delays min 10s; 20s better

• keep speeds slow when roads are not straight.

Hope this helps

[Fredrock1957]

Hi Lemon

In your first post "1 Halftrack" MEYER is immobillized and the trailing HT is plotted to move through it... I have learned you must issue a cancel to its previous movement order and reverse and then plot new movement around '1 HT'... The AI will do strange things if left up to its own with a waypoint say 60 meters down the road plotted through '1 HT'

The result is that I need to be really careful about plotting movement

Yes and I keep reminding myself to remember that the scale is different than CMx1 and therefore my 'distance' should be the standard 25-40 meters between vehicles traveling in column... but once one goes and 'breaks' down, then all hell can break loose especially in tight bocage country...

Hope this helps

[LemoN]

• short movement plans from decision point to decision point.

• longer time delays min 10s; 20s better

• keep speeds slow when roads are not straight.

Hope this helps

Well, I've started doing No.1, although that means it's consuming even more time. IE. I spend even more time plotting movements.

No.2, I adjust the pause according to terrain. If there's a load of twists and turns in a road I go with at last 10 seconds. I thought that 5-8 would be enough for these long and straight roads.

No.3, I've tried using slow on turns but it didn't change the outcome. It actually somehow increased the risk of vehicles bunching up in corners.

@ Fredrock1957

I'm aware that the halftrack got immobilised and I wrote as much. I didn't interfere with the whole movement in any way trying to showcase how the units react when moving down a couple of straight roads with some (wide) turns thrown into the mix if you don't babysit them through.

I sometimes spend 20+ minutes setting up the movement paths for all units in a convoy and getting them ready with pause and then letting them loose in succession only to have them clog up a in a straight road because one HT decided it just has to go ramming speed and crash into the bocage randomly. Which is exactly my problem with the pathfinding as it consumes most of my play-time as it stands now. Which isn't exactly desirable for me.

[sburke]

The result is that I need to be really careful about plotting movement and need to constantly monitor the moving forces and be ready to pause any following units every single second they drive. I simply can't rely upon them even moving down a straight road (let alone turns) without clogging up. .

I have had mixed results with this. I have some situations where if one vehicle took longer than expected to negotiate a turn the following vehicles would automatically just pause waiting for the vehicle in the lead. I think I tend to put in more way points than you did here however. I have also found that on longer way points I am more prone to end up with a vehicle further towards the shoulder than I expected which then slows them down (sometimes to the point of hitting the hedgerow and almost coming to a halt.)

I think the reality is, as you have found, having a lot of vehicles confined to the road ways means you are going to have to manage them more. Too many vehicles moving at once seems to get me into more frequent traffic snarls...kind of like real life. What I have tended to do is move a platoon at a time so the spacing between groups is longer. The side benefit to that is if I run into opposition I can more readily respond with a flanking move. If they are all in column too close I end up having to reorganize the column losing precious time.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Roads are usually broad enough to let two vehicles drive side by side. So I send the first vehicle down one side, the next one goes starts to the other side a little later and so on. If they run in to some kind of trouble trouble they won't get in the way of the next vehicle driving up

Even in that zig zag example above you could probably get away with that staggered approach, though the tolerance for error would undoubtedly be less.

But all in all it is generally unwise to send larger formations down the same road. Ten vehicles down such a winding road in one go is pretty much asking for trouble. Avoid it if you can.

[Jaws]

Accept the game limitations imo. I learned it the hard way just like you. George MC gave some usefull tips. Create temporary objectives between your main objective and your starting position. When a platoon arrives at the temporary objective plot new moves. This game is not a RTS it’s a tactical game with a RT option .

[LemoN]

Accept the game limitations imo. I learned it the hard way just like you. George MC gave some usefull tips. Create temporary objectives between your main objective and your starting position. When a platoon arrives at the temporary objective plot new moves. This game is not a RTS it’s a tactical game with a RT option

Funny, because in the last thread everyone reacted as if there were no limitations and as if I just made everything up or was too stupid to plot movement.

Also, I don't accept the reasoning behind "this is a tactical game" as everything that is easy in real life should be easy in a game like this. IRL the commander would simply tell the column which roads to take and where to turn, and this easily worked unless a vehicle bogged/broke down. As it stands now getting from point A to point B halfway across a map often takes up more time than the fighting itself. I play this game because it's a combat simulation, not because it's a traffic simulator.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys, looks like I'll simply have to put up with it and stop playing Bocage maps with loads of vehicles.

[Jaws]

Funny, because in the last thread everyone reacted as if there were no limitations and as if I just made everything up or was too stupid to plot movement.

Also, I don't accept the reasoning behind "this is a tactical game" as everything that is easy in real life should be easy in a game like this. IRL the commander would simply tell the column which roads to take and where to turn, and this easily worked unless a vehicle bogged/broke down. As it stands now getting from point A to point B halfway across a map often takes up more time than the fighting itself. I play this game because it's a combat simulation, not because it's a traffic simulator.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys, looks like I'll simply have to put up with it and stop playing Bocage maps with loads of vehicles.

Don’t fight the problem indeed . You are free to play any other game in the world CMBN alike. I can tell you tons of people were waiting 11 years to conclude there is none. I would say the glass is half full here so continue to enjoy the game as you wrote in other posts.

[gunnersman]

I'll second what Jaws said. I look at it as one of those features in the list that is good enough without spending too much programmer resources that could be used somewhere else.

I've employed all that is said here. I'd make a couple of more suggestion; On long straight aways, it seems to keep the vehicles on track if you put another way point midway. And turns; don't make sharp turns, but round them out with a couple of way points; one before the turn in the road and one after. I've never fully tested. But it SEEMS to help.

[sburke]

Funny, because in the last thread everyone reacted as if there were no limitations and as if I just made everything up or was too stupid to plot movement.

Also, I don't accept the reasoning behind "this is a tactical game" as everything that is easy in real life should be easy in a game like this. IRL the commander would simply tell the column which roads to take and where to turn, and this easily worked unless a vehicle bogged/broke down. As it stands now getting from point A to point B halfway across a map often takes up more time than the fighting itself. I play this game because it's a combat simulation, not because it's a traffic simulator.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys, looks like I'll simply have to put up with it and stop playing Bocage maps with loads of vehicles.

Not meaning to offend, but I think you need to calm down a bit. Part of the reaction you got was the way you started that thread. Not to excuse any other behavior, but it generally helps to get answers when you start with "I am trying this and it doesn't seem to work, any suggestions?" as opposed to "this is all hosed up, crappy game."

I am finding that most situations of real difficulty I am creating for myself and have decided to spend quite a bit of time trying to learn how to order my units around before starting a campaign or larger battle. I want the most enjoyment vs frustration I can get. The first thing I realized I needed to acknowledge was, despite playing CMSF for some time now, I really didn't make good use of the available command capabilities.

I don't consider it a limitation of the game that I can't order a full mech company down a country road and expect they will cruise along as if on the autobahn. This isn't a depiction of road march movement but tactical engagement. In rl I doubt you would find the Germans in a tactical 1 km or so battle ordering a full company to cruise on down a road. Maybe that is what you want to do, but it isn't necessarily sound tactically and it isn't what they have spent there time trying to get the AI to do.

That being said there is also a question of scenario design. Not having played the battle you were running into I can't say for sure. I am playing huzzar! right now and I have a full armor company, 2 Arm Inf platoons and a few recce elements. I did not send the full Tank coy down one road, but split them up along several roadways including one where a full platoon had to negotiate this tiny road between two hedgerows. It did take a lot of planning and other than one moment of frustration where one Sherman was taken out right at my exit from the tiny confined road. I was able to negotiate all those vehicles over quite a wide area.

[Fetchez la Vache]

The AI pathfinding isn't perfect. I know, I'm playing Ecoqueneauville and just asked a jeep to move through a blasted bocage hole. Instead it turned around and shot straight up the main road and into the waiting clutches of a 75mm PaK. Which is a double bummer: jeep flambe; and now the surprise of not knowing what was guarding the road has been spoilt. Ho hum.

As people are saying, you do have to manage road convoys rather carefully or else they get snarled up. I think as a result many players probably would avoid what LemoN tried - they knew it'd get snafu'd somewhere.

And I have a minor gripe myself concerning bocage, or rather blasting bocage. The only way to reliably blow a tank-sized hole is to place the Blast point clearly on the other side of the bocage, but then your engineers get chewed since they run through to have a look at their handy work. Dur.

You can place the Blast command on the same side of the bocage as you are located, but then I find that maybe 50% of the time the hole blown is only man-sized. Too narrow for a M4. I guess it's due to the 8x8 grids and action points, but it's annoying nonetheless.

So now I lob smoke over the bocage before Blasting. Saves my engineers with their precious loads of TNT but it does take an extra minute. Fortunately the scenario designers have been generous with the mission times so I don't mind too much.

Incidentally my double flanking movement on Ecoqueneauville is going rather swimmingly. Which means that things are about to pear-shaped once again... :-)

[c3k]

Not too likely that a lot of folks will extend their time, energy, or effort to help if there's a constant undercurrent of antipathy.

I will not quote your posts to show this.

Instead, I will congratulate you on posting screenshots. Those are very helpful. You've received some excellent advice here. Recognize that the AI will ALWAYS try to get to your waypoint. Be careful where you put them. The increased delays between multiple vehicles will solve a lot of the convey issues. Elmar's suggestion is one that I've learned the hard way: if there's a turn in a road, I alternate which vehicle takes the inside corner and which takes the outside of the corner.

Also, recognize that if the movement is not going the way you want, there may be a reason. That halftrack nosing into the bocage? You would be frustrated if you wanted it to go through the gate. What if I were planning to BREACH the bocage before the halftrack got there? The game supports my plan. It does not assume to know where I want to move. It follows what I say. The lack of a waypoint means "do whatever you want".

Having said all that, there has been a suggestion of having a "follow him" convoy command for, oh, about a decade.

Post more shots if you're still having issues.

Ken