Bocage + pathfinding = rage

[Sgt Joch]

I like Steve's way. If DK wants to start his own forum, game company and design his own tactical games, go ahead and show us how its done.

Back to the OP:

1. Bocage is tough! The americans found that out in 44!

2. Its hard to move armour through Bocage! The Germans found that out in 44!

3. Why did bfc choose Normandy 44? Bocage is tough! Wargamers on this forum have been screaming for bfc to go back to Normandy 44 since 2005.

Bfc has been working on CMx2 for about 7 years and CMBN for about 2 years. The game itself has been out for 3 days! its a bit frustating when gamers who are newbies to CMx2 in general and CMBN in particular make blanket statements that the game is irretrievably broken when the real problem is that they are not taking the time to learn how the game works and how to take advantage of its features.

armour pathfinding through tight country has always been tough. Its tough in real life, it was a nightmare in CMx1, it is easier in CMx2, but it still requires some planning.

You want an easier theater? Try CMSF, its a great game.

[LemoN]

The pathfinding on itself isn't too bad, it simply can't handle the narrow bocage properly. I'm an CMx1 "vet" and know how to plot movement. I started off with somewhat cruder orders (simply one waypoint along a straight road) but that led to even more clogging so I had to gradually adjust my waypointing until it's in the same league of Cmx1 WEGO waypointing.

To anyone who thinks I'm "simply clicking on somewhere on the map", no I don't. I carefully plot movement for vehicles along roads only, with normal move or slow exclusively, using the pause function to send them off one by one (I play RT) and leave at last 10 seconds between each vehicle. And they STILL decide to simply drive right into a wall/hedge that's nowhere near their plotted course along a straight road without obstacles. They STILL randomly decide that it's best NOT to take that turn and then only later realise that they have to take it so they do a 180° turn on the road, clogging up passing vehicles.

This is especially true for the SdKfz.250/251's which have a really low turn ratio which the path-finding doesn't recognise and often sends them off on turns too late.

Oh and in response to Mr. LOLtester:

Please read my second post again in order to understand that I think the game is great, it's just the theatre which is opening a couple of engine flaws that otherwise wouldn't be so prominent. For instance I planned an infantry assault in which a gap in the bocage off to my front-right plays a key-role. I open fire, send the infantry through the gap aaannnddd... they turn around! After plotting a waypoint right next to that gap twice I realise that the infantry simply can't go through (it was at last 2-3m wide). Anyway, whenever someone voices criticism the fanboys on here will always accuse the poster of saying the game is broken, that he doesn't have enough experience, that's he's too stupid, etc.

@Steve How could it possibly be that there's something wrong with MY game?

Get over yourself and please take a few lessons in customer relations. Never have I seen a developer trying to drive away customers THAT hard. And if you don't treat me with respect then I won't treat you with respect either. Simple.

[Sitting Duck]

I guess everyone has a different "style" of response, yes? One person's "rude attitude" is another's "refreshing." As long as everyone abides by the forum rules, then the only thing left is to not participate.

@LemoN - can you take a screen shot showing your plotted movement and where the actual movement is going wrong? That would clear up any misconceptions and might move the conversation forward.

[LemoN]

I guess everyone has a different "style" of response, yes? One person's "rude attitude" is another's "refreshing." As long as everyone abides by the forum rules, then the only thing left is to not participate.

@LemoN - can you take a screen shot showing your plotted movement and where the actual movement is going wrong? That would clear up any misconceptions and might move the conversation forward.

Don't have fraps.

But then, do I really want to go through the hassle of downloading and installing a program for a developer that doesn't deserve (or want) any help with finding bugs?

[Stalintc]

Does *print screen* not work?

[LJFHutch]

While I certainly like the blunt to-the-point approach it can sometimes seem a bit aggressive, it's just text and sometimes the meaning can be lost. If you're in a certain mood you'll see different meanings to that text.

I can certainly see how someone might interpret things said as aggressive, though I tend to assume jest in place of anger or aggression.

Edit: I usually use Taksi for video and screenshots but it doesn't seem to work with CM:BN

[Frankster65]

Well for a start you can address the perfectly valid criticisms of a customer in a less aggressive manner. I'm afraid you don't make this forum a particularly welcoming place for new and potential fans.

*Braces for impact*

His criticisms are not valid. I would describe them as silly.

[Reaver]

LemoN, I can understand your frustration with what you regard as unhelpful responses earlier in the thread, but Sitting Duck has just made an offer to see if he can assist you in your enjoyment of the game.

Perhaps it is an, as yet, unrecognised bug. Or perhaps there is a technique or style of play that could be employed so that you would again find enjoyment from this game. Many a time I have sat thinking "What on earth? Why did that happen?!?" only to find out that it was either something that I was doing wrong, or that I had misunderstood something within the game environment.

I am not critising you, or saying that you are playing the game incorrectly. All I am saying is that I am sure that (whatever the solution) you would rather enjoy the game than be on the forum continuing to post about something which is causing you to not enjoy it. I am also absolutely certain, without wishing to speak for others, that Steve and all the team at Battlefront would prefer that you enjoyed the game also. With that in mind, faced with (what seemed to me to be) a genuine offer of assistance, I think it would be a shame to turn it down.

Again, not being critical, just wishing to help.

[Chops]

I think that BFC has done a masterful job at re-creating the challenges and frustrations that commanders had to deal with while mucking around in the bocage. If you are frustrated as a player trying to work your way through this nightmarish but beautiful terrain, imagine what the real commanders must have felt, while their losses of real people mounted.

[The_Capt]

Two points,

Big thing with vehicles in bocage is to remember that they all have a turning radius. I just did this last night with some M8s. Plotted some moves and the damn things wobbled around a waypoint. Scratched my head because tracked vehicles didn't have any problems....then it hit me....no pivot turn. You really have to baby some of these vehs thru tight turns. Pain in the ass no doubt but real drivers had to as well.

Even tracked vehicles need turning radius. It can be frustrating but then again so was bocage from all accounts.

Second point, Bocage is puzzle combat, which makes sense because you are really fighting in a freakin maze. Not for everyone though, I for one hate Suduko with a passion but people love it. If you tire of bocage there a couple hundred QB maps out there that have no bocage on them at all, lot of room for play. I also suspect the community will start rolling out scenarios outside of bocage country soon, so lots of room for future play.

[Sgt Joch]

Yes, if you post a screenshot, it would be easier to figure out what you are doing wrong and how to help you out. CMx2 is different from CMx1. Moving vehicles through tight terrain is a lot easier in CMBN than in CMx1, but it still requires some planning.

[~Viajero]

So there's another option. Everything but that last part is neither kissing ass, nor breaking out the banhammer, and I think it gets across 100% of what you were trying to convey with 0% of the attitude, which does pervade some of your posts, though you might not be aware of it. You would sound much more professional if you composed yourself like this more often imo. Gamemakers have always behaved like this in the other game forums I've frequented. It's just being diplomatic.

Thanks Dark Knight! You beat me to it. Was actually typing exactly the same kind of response, no need anymore.

What many fanbois here fail to realize is that steve an co. have had a captive market (Im included in it!)for the most part of a decade and it shows. They are too proud of what they ve built and it shows. As a consequence it also shows a very unprofessional and condescending communication attitude that were it not because of that captive market it would have probably been corrected long ago.

What BFC desperately needs is a couple good competitors threating to steal some of that captive market from them. Then you ll see either steve changing his attitude or risking going under. Alas so far and for the foresseable he can get away with it. The most outrageous part is that when someone tries the same style with them they or their fanbois call it "unconstructive".

[Sitting Duck]

Don't have fraps.

But then, do I really want to go through the hassle of downloading and installing a program for a developer that doesn't deserve (or want) any help with finding bugs?

Actually, I was just looking for a screen shot, not a movie. I was under the impression that taking a screen shot did not require installation of any software - but that might depend on your OS. Are you using Windows?

[LemoN]

Does *print screen* not work?

Nope, black screen.

LemoN, I can understand your frustration with what you regard as unhelpful responses earlier in the thread, but Sitting Duck has just made an offer to see if he can assist you in your enjoyment of the game.

Perhaps it is an, as yet, unrecognised bug. Or perhaps there is a technique or style of play that could be employed so that you would again find enjoyment from this game. Many a time I have sat thinking "What on earth? Why did that happen?!?" only to find out that it was either something that I was doing wrong, or that I had misunderstood something within the game environment.

I am not critising you, or saying that you are playing the game incorrectly. All I am saying is that I am sure that (whatever the solution) you would rather enjoy the game than be on the forum continuing to post about something which is causing you to not enjoy it. I am also absolutely certain, without wishing to speak for others, that Steve and all the team at Battlefront would prefer that you enjoyed the game also. With that in mind, faced with (what seemed to me to be) a genuine offer of assistance, I think it would be a shame to turn it down.

Again, not being critical, just wishing to help.

Thanks, at last one friendly person on this board!

Next time I play in a bocage scenario with a lot of vehicles I'll see to it and do a couple of screenshots.

[Stalintc]

Damn... didnt realise that!

[LemoN]

Actually, I was just looking for a screen shot, not a movie. I was under the impression that taking a screen shot did not require installation of any software - but that might depend on your OS. Are you using Windows?

Win 7 x64 Ultimate.

Print screen for CM:BN results in a black screen.

[Volodnikov]

Black screen for me too, same OS. I have to use Fraps.

[Ssnake51]

No, Dark Night got it right.

Best regards,

Thomm

I agree. I couldn't have said it better than he did..

[The_Capt]

Not that I think this will make a lick of difference, but here's how you could have gotten the same message across a little differently...

So there's another option. Everything but that last part is neither kissing ass, nor breaking out the banhammer, and I think it gets across 100% of what you were trying to convey with 0% of the attitude, which does pervade some of your posts, though you might not be aware of it. You would sound much more professional if you composed yourself like this more often imo. Gamemakers have always behaved like this in the other game forums I've frequented. It's just being diplomatic.

I know I should stay out of this but...really?!

I gotta be honest this type of response ie the one you are paraphrasing here is really unappealing to me. Why? Because is smacks of those call centers, the ones you spend an hour on, with their politically correct and diplomatic responses but you know they really don't give a rats-ass about you are your problems. It isn't professional, it is a shining symbol of just how bad customer service has really become.

"I will be ever so polite to you because you matter to me on a deep and personal level. I mean this wholeheartedly. I may not sleep well tonight tossing and turning over your concerns, which I full respect but simply cannot agree with." When in reality they are reading from a script designed to wear you down to the point you go away from sheer frustration at the warm and tender indifference.

Just another example of this "we-all-winners-who-get-the-participant-medal" society we are building. Well we aren't all winners, I am pretty sure Steve doesn't "respectfully disagree" and for the love of God Almighty can we say what we mean and mean what we say!

[Fetchez la Vache]

I think trying to handle a battalion sized force in bocage country with CMBN is going to be extremely frustrating. Moving a line vehicles down the roads is a pain and has been ever since CMBO. I would love a "Follow Me" order now as I would have loved one 10 years ago.

On the other hand, I haven't yet found the quantities of armour in CMBN to feel any frustration at all in terms of handling tank movement. In fact it's handling all the sub-teams I create from splitting my infantry squads that I am finding rather tricky. Overall I am finding the level of detail about right for my platoon-company sized battles.

Then again I play only in WEGO. RT might be another matter entirely for all I know.

Oh, and adult argument has never been possible on the internet. Don't even try. :-)

[MikeyD]

I'm sorry to hear LemoN is so angry at Eisenhower for staging the landings where he did.

[LemoN]

I'm sorry to hear LemoN is so angry at Eisenhower for staging the landings where he did.

Fail......

[TrailApe]

I blame it on Monty.

[benpark]

The advice to me was to plot less waypoints- that has helped a bit. The area that I observed the pathfinding issue in was one of too many units packed into too small an area, coupled with a diagonal road that zigzagged.

That situation created two issues- first being congestion (which I think is handled well by autopausing) and map design. Secondly, Zigzaging roads with narrow hedgerows are tough for the AI to navigate, and since the road simulates (I would expect) a straight diagonal road, this can get sticky for the vehicles at the corners they need to be turning. The necessity of the vehicle to turn often, coupled with the speed hit of the hedgerow it inevitably hits seems to be the thing I was noticing most. The less I micromanaged the orders, the better it got.

How do you fix the latter problem without hurting the underlying purpose of the hedgerow, though? Vehicles should slow down when confronted by a hedge formation, so that shouldn't be changed. So the issue for me was the way the map design exacerbated the issue of something that should have been taking place. I'll need to re-familiarize myself with diagonal roads in the editor to see if there are straight varieties, but that might help that particular scenario of the German campaign (which is great in every other respect).

[Hiram Sedai]

Two points,

Big thing with vehicles in bocage is to remember that they all have a turning radius. I just did this last night with some M8s. Plotted some moves and the damn things wobbled around a waypoint. Scratched my head because tracked vehicles didn't have any problems....then it hit me....no pivot turn. You really have to baby some of these vehs thru tight turns. Pain in the ass no doubt but real drivers had to as well.

Even tracked vehicles need turning radius. It can be frustrating but then again so was bocage from all accounts.

Second point, Bocage is puzzle combat, which makes sense because you are really fighting in a freakin maze. Not for everyone though, I for one hate Suduko with a passion but people love it. If you tire of bocage there a couple hundred QB maps out there that have no bocage on them at all, lot of room for play. I also suspect the community will start rolling out scenarios outside of bocage country soon, so lots of room for future play.

QFT & couldn't have said it better myself.

regards...