A Quick Battle AAR: Shermans vs Pz IVs, Not Your Fathers Combat Mission

[Khane]

Not sure if you got an answer already. This might help:

http://www.ditii.com/2011/03/06/imageshack-serving-frozen-frog-blocking-certain-countries/

Thanks, that makes sense now.

Yeah, in Sth Korea we only get the froggie, but if I right click on it (in firefox) and select 'view image' it rather annoyingly opens up the image only in my screen. But if I then backspace, the image shows up in text as it should.

This only works if I'm signed into imageshack, mind.

I have already tried this but it does not work for me (and I am also signed into imageshack)

How does this work for everyone

This one works for me.

Khane

[gunnersman]

About the crew abandoning with backpacks. That's an M20 troop carrier, you're seeing 'passengers' abandoning, not crew.

Oh hell. I didnt even think about that. Didnt even notice the 37mm was not on it.

[Vark]

From most of my sources the commander had an MP-40 clipped beside his cupola, sometimes the loader did as well. The thinking behind this was that the Commander would be the most likely person to be able to defend the tank, in close combat, though in a training video, for Panther crews the loader uses the MP through a firing port. The video also show the commander lobbing an egg grenade at a Soviet tank hunter, so will crews have grenades? The manual stated that the hull machine gun could be dismounted, but this would take time, perhaps if the crew knew they would be ersatz foot sloggers, for sometime, they might do this.

Talking of carbines, in an interview with a Jagdpanzer IV crewman he remembers a crewman leaning out and firing at an AT gun, with his "assault rifle", needless to say he lost the fight!

For the uniform grog, the German tankers rarely wore traditional holsters (they might snag when entering/exiting the fighting compartment), but either wore shoulder ones or slipped the pistol into their tunics, attached with a lanyard around the neck.

Actually, looking at the video

at 1:00 min the crew start pre-contact drills including the loader passing two egg grenades to the commander and loading an MP-40. Interestingly, the commander declines the MP-40 and it is stored next to the loaders firing port. At 3:35 the egg grenade is thrown and at 3:50 the loader fires the MP-40.

Finally, I do hope tanks will be able to collapse fighting positions, as at 3:00, it was an important tactic mentioned many times in combat reports.

[Kilroy Lurking]

Picture posted by Bil Hardenberger *192 works for me - as did flikr

(I shoot tanks on a PC/Windows 7 but I spend (waste) time on the internet using a Mac)

David

[Wrath of Dagon]

german fire brigades. i can buy that. what book was it i read that some german tanks actually got in a column with exploiting russian tanks, then destroyed them all? heh..

That was during Kursk, there was so much dust the Russians didn't realize the tanks driving next to them were German, so the Germans took out almost the entire column at point blank range.

[WillyPete2171]

gunnersman, don't forget this is still a BETA and not evrything you see is finalalized yet.

Thanks for an awsome AAR! By the way, I picked up on a few things reading through this thread. I love how the side skirts of the PZIV are randomly hanging off or have none at all. I wonder does that has any effect of diminished protection compared to a panzer with all its skirts on and in the right place, or is it strictly cosmetic?

The other very small thing I picked up on is that it seems that all the panzer commanders have their earphones over both ears. It's not a big deal, but was under the impression that it was common practice for Panzer commanders to keep one ear open so they could be more aware of their surroundings. They listnend to the sound of the engine, for other tanks, rounds firing, ect. Just something to think about to add more variety and attention to detail... thanks!

[George MC]

That was during Kursk, there was so much dust the Russians didn't realize the tanks driving next to them were German, so the Germans took out almost the entire column at point blank range.

Errmm Mr Picky would like to point out ... not quite - you're referring to Bäke's 'Ghost Raid'. Major Bäke led an armoured Kampfgruppe in a daring night raid to seize a bridgehead over the river Donets at Rshavetz during Operation Citadel. It was at night, they slipped into a Soviet convoy but were stopped by some T34s coming the other way. Bäke KOd a T34 with AT mines. Bäke was awarded the Oakl leaves to his Knight's Cross for this campaign.

[Piecekeeper]

I wonder, what version of the game are you playing in the AAR? Is it the one with the updated textures like in the latest screenshots, ore is it an earlier build. I think this one has been answered before but are you able to shoot the skirts off the PZIV?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Errmm Mr Picky would like to point out ... not quite - you're referring to Bäke's 'Ghost Raid'. Major Bäke led an armoured Kampfgruppe in a daring night raid to seize a bridgehead over the river Donets at Rshavetz during Operation Citadel. It was at night, they slipped into a Soviet convoy but were stopped by some T34s coming the other way. Bäke KOd a T34 with AT mines. Bäke was awarded the Oakl leaves to his Knight's Cross for this campaign.

No, that was a different incident, this one happened a bit earlier I believe, as Zukkov said it was during a day light break through by the Russians.

[Vark]

Bil, thanks for the reply, good to see your guys won't be firing at seaguls! Now a few more questions!

1. I have seen footage of Tigers/Panthers slowly moving forward and halting to shoot (classic CM hunt command), did the Germans change the doctrine for the heavies, as they were less vulnerable to counterfire?

2. I always use hunt in CM1 as fast has seemingly no effect on enemy accuracy, does moving fast have a noticeable effect, especially if at an angle to the shooter, in CM2?

3. Your comments about trees was heartening as trying to reproduce historical AFV tactics just led to slaughter, are tanks hidden, from observation, by trees better?

4. Can you dismount part of the crew (split squad-like) as often commanders and loaders used to recce ahead, not the whole crew? This was one of the reasons they had small arms available, in case they were ambushed.

Really appreciate the report, I'll be rooting for the Amis but do like commanding German armour in QB's, especially Panthers, swarmed by T-34's, in fog bound snowscapes (their vulnerable side armour makes it a nail biter!)

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil, thanks for the reply, good to see your guys won't be firing at seaguls! Now a few more questions!

1. I have seen footage of Tigers/Panthers slowly moving forward and halting to shoot (classic CM hunt command), did the Germans change the doctrine for the heavies, as they were less vulnerable to counterfire?

Sorry I can't answer that question... haven't read anything that mentions heavy tank doctrine specifically.

2. I always use hunt in CM1 as fast has seemingly no effect on enemy accuracy, does moving fast have a noticeable effect, especially if at an angle to the shooter, in CM2?

Hunt is too slow for my taste.

Hard to be sure exactly what factors actually effect targeting.. I've seen a lot of misses at moving targets, and I've seen a lot of hits. I think it depends mainly on the movement status of the shooter, distance, terrain, smoke in between, etc...

3. Your comments about trees was heartening as trying to reproduce historical AFV tactics just led to slaughter, are tanks hidden, from observation, by trees better?

I don't want to ruin any of the upcoming action, so I will only say.. yep.

4. Can you dismount part of the crew (split squad-like) as often commanders and loaders used to recce ahead, not the whole crew? This was one of the reasons they had small arms available, in case they were ambushed.

You can't split a crew, but yes you can dismount, do some foot recon then remount later.

Thanks!

Bil

[The Instigator]

More pixs more pixs more pixs more pixs!!

Thank you.......

[finalcut]

Is it the end of April yet? We are dying out here.Must play,Must play soon please.:mad:

[Bil Hardenberger]

Rubber Bullets

Part 1

Minute 3

I now know that there is at least one surviving M-20 armored car and at least one mixed Sherman Platoon moving down AA3 (two M4A1, one M4A3, and at least one unspotted tank). On the other side of the field AA1 is quiet and no movement has been noted. I still need to get eyes on AA2 and see if Warren has anything on that approach.

1st Platoon Orders

I decide to move Tank 2 slightly behind and to the left of Tank 1, which seems to have a fantastic spot behind two or three tree lines depending on which way he looks. That should complicate any return fire. The HQ tank is to move forward and take up the position Tank 2 is vacating, ready to move forward if a shooting or maneuvering opportunity presents itself.

2nd Platoon Orders

With the need to try and reconnoiter AA2 I move Tank 1 forward slightly and give it a covered arc down to AA2, while still covering AA1. Tank 2 will remain in its present position to cover this move in case something does appear on AA1. If I don’t see anything on AA1 this turn I think it’s safe to say that Warren probably is not using that route and that flank will be clear for me to start maneuvering.

1st Platoon Resolution

Tank 3 starts off the action this turn. Right away a couple of previously unspotted tanks make an appearance. Another M4A3 and an M4A3(76)W. So I now know that the Sherman Platoon consists of the following tanks:

Sherman HQ: M4A1

Sherman 1: M4A3

Sherman 2: M4A1

Sherman 3: M4A3(76)W

Sherman 4: M4A3

An interesting mix to be sure and Sherman 3 with its 76mm gun is worrying.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Rubber Bullets

Part 2

Tank 3 decides to take a few shots at Sherman 4 (M4A3) (in the white circle of the picture above) and the following sequence shows that for his trouble he scores three hits, two of which shatter on the hull front while the final hit bounces (this final image is a composite of two to show the bounce).

Right at the end of the turn Tank 3 takes a hit from a Sherman, the shooter is unidentified as I have lost the LOS to the entire Sherman Platoon due to all the smoke they have popped. This hit doesn’t seem to have done any damage.

Tank 1 is the only other tank from 1st Platoon that gets in on the action this turn. It targets Sherman 2 (M4A1) achieves two hits, both of which failed to penetrate, grrrr. The Sherman popped smoke, reversed and eventually made it out of harm’s way. Here is the sequence:

By the end of the turn all that was left on AA3 was a bunch of UI contact icons and a lot of building smoke. I love how units will pop in and out of LOS in this game when behind a smoke screen. At this point in the game the Sherman Platoon is popping smoke all over the place.

With a full Sherman Platoon and the armored cars (only two have been seen and one of those destroyed last turn). It is looking like AA3 is a main avenue of approach for Warren. However, this can’t be his entire force. There should be another tank platoon or two, and possibly some infantry too (although I was under the impression that Warren had an all armor force too at this stage in the game).

Meanwhile at 2nd Platoon

Tank 1 moved up to its new position, Tank 2 maintained its position and covered AA1. However, at the end of the turn a unit from across the map spotted this sitting fat and happy on AA2:

I can’t spot him yet with Tank 1, nor do I think can he spot me. I’m going to have to try to do something about this M-10 next turn, but I’m going to have to be careful, that M-10’s gun is very dangerous.

I know Warren said last turn that his M-10’s were hulldown.. but this one certainly looks like it is sky-lined on that hill, and he also didn’t take advantage of those beautiful trees right beside him.

Next: Minute Four

[Vark]

Great, I can't see the last two pictures, just get a box with a red X!

[Bil Hardenberger]

I'm hating on flickr right about now... it was a pain to use and my images were all downsized.

[Gryphonne]

Uhm, wow... how did all those rounds fail to penetrate Shermans at that range? :eek:

I thought the 75/L48 would be a tad more effective? I can't even remember a 75 bouncing off any Sherman in CMAK!

[Bil Hardenberger]

Gryphonne stay tuned. This is where this AAR is going to get really interesting!

Bil

[The Instigator]

Nice detail with the Gerries bent rear fenders! This is great!

[Gryphonne]

Gryphonne stay tuned. This is where this AAR is going to get really interesting!

Bil

You have me on the edge of my seat already

[Vark]

75mm L48's bouncing off M-4's, at close range, what is going on here? I don't think I have heard historical accounts ending this way, it should be two M-4's burning, surely. As for the M-10, can you area fire close buy it and then fast move to get LOS and finish it off, or have they done away with the shocked = frozen reaction. SU-152's hunting in pairs, were quite lethal at that gambit, but it often relied on gamey borg spotting to work!

[ChrisND]

75mm L48's bouncing off M-4's, at close range, what is going on here? I don't think I have heard historical accounts ending this way, it should be two M-4's burning, surely.

I think you and many others are going to find some misconceptions about about armor destroyed by CMBN, and I believe that's partly what this QB demo is about.

[Sergei]

75mm L48's bouncing off M-4's, at close range, what is going on here? I don't think I have heard historical accounts ending this way, it should be two M-4's burning, surely.

The M4A3 and the late M4A1 had a quite a lot thicker armour in the front than original M4 or early M4A1, so depending on the part hit (lower hull was the weak point) and the hit angle there was a much greater likelihood of ricochet.

[The_Capt]

Ok, following up on Bils post. At this point I knew I had at least a Pz IV platoon to my front. My shermans were popping smoke which I could use to advance thru and I knew Bil was down a Pz IV from last turn. My decision was to press up AA3 and settle this thing but still had 2 x M10s covering my right flank. Obviously missed hull down on the one Bil showed pics on, that hull down skill really eluded me until Bil showed me a trick which I hope he will post after the game.

As to the forest, the reason I didn't go into it was because it was heavy forest and impassable to tanks, or so I thought. What you can do is access the outside edge of heavy forest and tuck armour in there...wish I knew then what I know now.

So as you can see my Shermans are taking a lot of hits and shrugging them off. This actually raised a lot of debate in the Beta Tester forum but Charles showed us the numbers and I have to admit you can't (or at least I can't) argue with them. The old CMx1 Sherman who was just aching to be blown up has changed. The Sherman M4A3 is no Panther but it is a lot tougher in CMx2, more than a match for Pz IVs, particularly the 76s.

I let the staff explain more on the mechanics.

At this point by my estimate Bil had shown me 4 of what I assumed was his 8 (now 7) tanks and fully expected a push on my right. Basic plan right now was to push onward. Bil had the same plan..which you will see was a bad one on his part.