Randomly Generated Maps

[stikkypixie]

250? Damn. That's a lot. My concerns about lack of QB maps just went out the window.

And these are MAPS you're talking about right? Not scenarios?

Yep, maps. Just check the CMSF QB folder (if you have it of course ).

[James Crowley]

James Crowley: "I tended to do the opposite and have the AI pick for both sides, thus forcing me to 'make do' with what I had to hand, against an 'unknown' opponent."

You, sir, will be in for some fun. It's the way I test the QB Maps.

Excellent news; Thank you.

The anticipation around the release of CMBN takes me back ten years, to that surrounding CMBO. If only I could go back 10 years to various other aspects of life!; where on earth has that time gone?

[Sixxkiller]

And after release of the game, your first QB game ends, you guys might want to consider getting on here to thank the guys for designing the maps and Mark "QB" Ezra for compiling and fixing start points on many of them.

[Michael Emrys]

Hmmm. You've just sparked a thought. I am guessing that it is possible to take an existing map and modify it in the editor to produce a new and to a greater or lesser degree different map, thus saving yourself some work compared to starting from scratch. This would not be appropriate for all scenarios, but for a QB might work quite well enough.

Michael

[GSX]

Me too, which is why QBs were almost the only thing I played in CMx1. Although sometimes they were a kind of hybrid between QBs and scenarios insofar as I would select the forces for both sides. But placement of the opposing force was still left to the AI, so there were always plenty of surprises.

That said, I am assuming in CMx2 that non-random maps DOES NOT equate with canned scenarios. Once again, I am expecting that the AI can, if allowed, choose its own forces and placement for them. So each engagement, even if played on the same map, can be unique. If I am incorrect, I hope someone with definite information will correct me.

Michael

Correct me if Im wrong here anyone but Im not sure the AI is up to non-scripted scenarios in QBs. I dont think you will get much, if any enjoyment except possibly in an attack type scenario (where you do the attacking).

In CMSF the AI notoriously just tends to sit there in Meeting Engagements etc. I rather think the QBs are for man V man PBEM or RT enjoyment.

[James Crowley]

Correct me if Im wrong here anyone but Im not sure the AI is up to non-scripted scenarios in QBs. I dont think you will get much, if any enjoyment except possibly in an attack type scenario (where you do the attacking).

In CMSF the AI notoriously just tends to sit there in Meeting Engagements etc. I rather think the QBs are for man V man PBEM or RT enjoyment.

I sincerely hope that is not the case!

Perhaps MarkEzra could throw some light on this, assuming that it doesn't impact on his NDA?

[GSX]

I sincerely hope that is not the case!

Perhaps MarkEzra could throw some light on this, assuming that it doesn't impact on his NDA?

Everything Ive read here makes me believe that the AI in QBs will be the same as we see in CMSF. So unless QB maps are somehow scripted for solo play (and I cant see how they would be) I dont envisage much, if any difference between CMBN and CMSF.

If you have CMSF try it and see what happens. In my experience you wont get much of a game out of the AI, with any kind of battle.

[Guest]

QB maps *are* scripted for solo play. I'll leave it to Mark to comment further on this, as he does the AI scripting for Quick Battle maps, but yes, you can profitably play QBs against the AI.

So: James, no, that is not the case. You absolutely can play QBs solo. And GSX, you'd do well to try CM:BN's QBs before losing hope.

[Thomm]

So unless QB maps are somehow scripted for solo play (and I cant see how they would be) I dont envisage much, if any difference between CMBN and CMSF.

The last months I have only played QBs solo, with unit auto-selection, and I was never disappointed.

The AI plans (and there are multiple ones per map, if I understand correctly) are scripted with great skill, and the AI will perform very challenging flanking manouvers.

Solid fun!!

Best regards,

Thomm

[James Crowley]

QB maps *are* scripted for solo play. I'll leave it to Mark to comment further on this, as he does the AI scripting for Quick Battle maps, but yes, you can profitably play QBs against the AI.

So: James, no, that is not the case. You absolutely can play QBs solo. And GSX, you'd do well to try CM:BN's QBs before losing hope.

Excellent news; thanks Phil.

[Michael Emrys]

Yes, a big hand of applause.

Michael

[DaveyJJ]

This sounds very exciting, good news!

[MarkEzra]

Hmmm. You've just sparked a thought. I am guessing that it is possible to take an existing map and modify it in the editor .... but for a QB might work quite well enough.

Michael

Gee Now Why didn't I think of that. The Beta Campaign/Scen designers have been VERY generous with their work.

A Great Map can make an interesting QB Map. It is incumbent on the QB designer to appreciate the ground work when scripting the AI. If the QB designer fails to understand that each map must handle any and all types of force combinations, then even the coolest map will be a yawner. We learned a lot through all the trials and travails of CMSF but proof of the pudding (as always) is in the eating...

[MarkEzra]

Correct me if Im wrong here anyone but Im not sure the AI is up to non-scripted scenarios in QBs. I dont think you will get much, if any enjoyment except possibly in an attack type scenario (where you do the attacking).

In CMSF the AI notoriously just tends to sit there in Meeting Engagements etc. I rather think the QBs are for man V man PBEM or RT enjoyment.

Please stand Corrected.

All QB Maps have multiple plans for both attacker and defender. So they are scripted. The defender always has a "counter-attack" variable timed movement to Objective order. In Meeting Engagement the AI attempts to push beyond the objective. This is the case with CMSF QB's today.

The early days of CMSF QB's and the long...SLOW.... process of learning what makes a good QB map frustrated many CM fans. So changes made to QB Map design went generally unnoticed. I could sure understand why.

CMBN QB includes new functions NOT seen in latter day CMSF. Testing has been really fun.

My Personal Opinion: No AI can ever match the cunning of the human opponent, but the CMBN AI will give you a darned good run for your money.

[GSX]

Please stand Corrected.

All QB Maps have multiple plans for both attacker and defender. So they are scripted. The defender always has a "counter-attack" variable timed movement to Objective order. In Meeting Engagement the AI attempts to push beyond the objective. This is the case with CMSF QB's today.

The early days of CMSF QB's and the long...SLOW.... process of learning what makes a good QB map frustrated many CM fans. So changes made to QB Map design went generally unnoticed. I could sure understand why.

CMBN QB includes new functions NOT seen in latter day CMSF. Testing has been really fun.

My Personal Opinion: No AI can ever match the cunning of the human opponent, but the CMBN AI will give you a darned good run for your money.

I stand corrected then. My only experience with sole QB in CMSF has been dire.

Are you saying that CMSF QB solo maps have scripted AI as well? I played a couple of attack defend type games when I first responded to this post as I wanted to be sure I knew what I was talking about and honestly the AI didnt do much except sit there. There was certainly no placing of defenders etc in places where any human would defend.

However, I await CMN's AI maps. To be honest though this is the first time any of you Beta Boys have mentioned this, unless Ive missed it of course.

[noxnoctum]

Please stand Corrected.

All QB Maps have multiple plans for both attacker and defender. So they are scripted. The defender always has a "counter-attack" variable timed movement to Objective order. In Meeting Engagement the AI attempts to push beyond the objective. This is the case with CMSF QB's today.

The early days of CMSF QB's and the long...SLOW.... process of learning what makes a good QB map frustrated many CM fans. So changes made to QB Map design went generally unnoticed. I could sure understand why.

CMBN QB includes new functions NOT seen in latter day CMSF. Testing has been really fun.

My Personal Opinion: No AI can ever match the cunning of the human opponent, but the CMBN AI will give you a darned good run for your money.

Ya I've noticed this... on one mission where I was taking it slow (like always when ATGMs are in the area), half the enemy suddenly ran out of their buildings and into a hail of fire from my infantry across the street. Pretty dumb. I'd rather them just stay in place or only counterattack if certain conditions are met (i.e. 75% of the attacking force's armor is destroyed)

Just play against humans is my solution. Making decent AI for any game is incredibly difficult, for wargaming, it's almost impossible.

[Rocky Balboa]

Ya I've noticed this... on one mission where I was taking it slow (like always when ATGMs are in the area), half the enemy suddenly ran out of their buildings and into a hail of fire from my infantry across the street. Pretty dumb. I'd rather them just stay in place or only counterattack if certain conditions are met (i.e. 75% of the attacking force's armor is destroyed)

Just play against humans is my solution. Making decent AI for any game is incredibly difficult, for wargaming, it's almost impossible.

Yeah, human v human is where its at if you want a challenge although don't discount the realism of playing against the AI. Lots of crazy stuff happens in war due to poor leadership, bad training and miss communicated orders. All of these things can sometimes be experienced when playing against the AI. Although I've also seen plenty of boneheaded moves made by human opponents and even made a few myself.

[Scipio]

I understand that a fully random generated map will not work in CMBN.

How about randomly generated contour lines for the map/scenario generator? With a simple click on this plus some manual adjustments if necessary you can give an existing map a very different character

[MarkEzra]

Are you saying that CMSF QB solo maps have scripted AI as well? I played a couple of attack defend type games when I first responded to this post as I wanted to be sure I knew what I was talking about and honestly the AI didn't do much except sit there. There was certainly no placing of defenders etc in places where any human would defend.

However, I await CMN's AI maps. To be honest though this is the first time any of you Beta Boys have mentioned this, unless Ive missed it of course.

All CMSF "Official QB Maps" were revised so you'd want to be sure to have the latest build (doesn't matter if you don't have any modules). Other maps...older maps, ect won't have this.

But even if you have all the latest:

CMSF was a training ground for the variable timed counter-attack. I'm sure to have set times too long into the game to make counter-attack even show up. Coupled with that is the very annoying inability to adjust the CMSF QB game length. And just to add insult to injury, the nature of the CMSF battlefield with all it's inherent imbalance, made the weaker OPFOR counter-attack often...well laughable.

CMBN benefits from CMSF's trial and error. Timing of counter-attack was looked at carefully and is subject to change once the game is released. CMBN QB will allow the player to set their own game lengths (thank the Gods!). And there are a couple of other improvements that have allowed increased flexibility in AI scripting.

By the way, you are right. While I did announce the changes in CMSF QB Maps, I avoided detailed explanation. My reasoning was simple. There are so many over arching problems with CMSF QB's (crappy unit selection-no map selector, no control of time) that banging a proud drum just seemed silly. But CMBN hold higher promise (jeez how could it not!) One thing is certain, when the game finally gets into the players hands BFC will be listening intently.

[nathangun]

..... But CMBN hold higher promise (jeez how could it not!) One thing is certain, when the game finally gets into the players hands BFC will be listening intently.

BFC always does, doesn't it ?

[Gromit]

So Mark, I have to ask... is there any chance you and other Beta testers that have made maps, both scenario/campaign and quick battle, would be willing to distill your knowledge into something all of us CM:BN virgins can learn from?

I for one would be eternally grateful to keep from:

a) reinventing the map wheel

embarrassing myself with poor contributions thru ignorance

c) repeating mistakes others here have learned

Thanks!

[GSX]

I'd go along with the above. It seems like a lot more skill is required to make good CMSF maps than a CMAK one. Ive played around with making some, but to be quite honest im not one of the guys with infinite patience.

When it comes to Normandy, its all about where the water flows that makes the terrain and good maps realise this.

But, how do you tell a randomly chosen AI force when and how to counter attack? I dont want to be attacked by a Mortar Platoon etc....

[stikkypixie]

I'd go along with the above. It seems like a lot more skill is required to make good CMSF maps than a CMAK one. Ive played around with making some, but to be quite honest im not one of the guys with infinite patience.

When it comes to Normandy, its all about where the water flows that makes the terrain and good maps realise this.

But, how do you tell a randomly chosen AI force when and how to counter attack? I dont want to be attacked by a Mortar Platoon etc....

You can reverse engineer the design process by examining the QBs made by BFC if needs be. Having said that I am really curious to see how they play out.

[Thomm]

IBut, how do you tell a randomly chosen AI force when and how to counter attack? I dont want to be attacked by a Mortar Platoon etc....

I think there is a mechanism for this, but I am not 100 % sure.

Best regards,

Thomm

[MarkEzra]

QB Map Design is somewhat different than a standard scen. I do intend to write up a basic tutorial on how to build a QB Style map from scratch and perhaps more importantly, how to convert an existing scen map to a QB map. I'll let others address actual scenario design.