Will artillery be more flexible this time around?

[DaveyJJ]

If you have a look at the Liverpool demo thread you'll see the AI used on-map mortars effectively to kill two greyhounds.

Poor, poor animals. Bet there was nothing at left of them, not even little bits for soup.

For example I recently read a great account of a single day battle by an British infantry regiment at Rauray at the end of the Epsom battles. Over 10,000 rounds of Artillery ammunition was spent during the defense against 2nd and 9th SS attacks over a 12 hour period, including 3000 rounds by the regimental mortars (5 guns each firing 600 rounds).

That's light arty. At Vimy, there was a density of one heavy gun for every 20 yards and one field gun for every 10 yards of Canadian Corps frontage. That's almost 250 heavy guns and about 600 lighter gauged field guns. Plus the Brits added another 132 more heavy guns and 102 field pieces. The Canucks rained down more than 2,500 tons of shells every day for three weeks proceeding the main attack, more than 1,000,000 shells day and night for 21 days. Then the arty rolling barrage preceeded the attack. The German forces refer to the last week before Easter Sunda at Vimy as the "week of suffering."

[Michael Emrys]

Lots of arty and ammo was not something the Allies had problems with.

I understand what you are saying and for the most part you are right. But there were two critical junctures of the period 1944-45 where there were serious shortages of arty ammo. The first was during June, following the D-Day landings. The Allies were having difficulty getting enough into the bridgehead, partly due to mistakes in planning and problems with the weather, and partly because the German defense was more dogged and effective than had been anticipated.

The second instance was in the autumn of 1944. The Allies had assumed that the war would be essentially over by this point, so production of arty ammo had been curtailed earlier and it took time to ramp that back up again and move it into the theater.

On both those occasions artillery batteries were limited in how much they could fire each day, sometimes stringently so.

Michael

[Blackcat]

A couple of more thoughts on this topic. Steve said that rolling barrages once set in motion could not be changed in real life. In fact they could. There are eamples on the Somme where forward observers were able to call back artillery to deal with stromg points that had not been neutralised, not many, it is true, but it did happen. With the advances in radio communication that had occured since 1916, artillery was much more responsive in 1944.

That said I think Steve has a very good point. It is possible to create a scenario which would give the full effect of a rolling barrage, but who would want to play it? Just how much fun would it be?

[JonS]

Those two sentences are so utterly wrong, as anyone who has done any serious reading on the Somme would know, that the author's credibility must be open to serious doubt.

Yeah, I agree. The link was to an example of the US using rolling barrages, not to a stellar example of research and writing

[JonS]

It is possible to create a scenario which would give the full effect of a rolling barrage, but who would want to play it? Just how much fun would it be?

That depends, doesn't it? Any tool in a design toolbox can overused, underused, or abused. It can also be artistically integrated as part of a pleasing whole.

But only if it exists

[Lt Belenko]

Rolling Barrage Scenario.

Create a map with a hill on one end and some tall building on the hill for clear observation.

Create a scenario with 300 FOs place them in the buildings. Don't forget and plenty of TRPs.

Now design the rest of the scenario as normal - a company or two of attackers and a company or so of defenders.

Make it 3 hours long (if possible).

Then give orders to 10 FOs to fire every other minute for the first hour - each group shooting a little farther down range than the previous.

The attacking troops show up as reinforcements as the last cannon bombs fall.

Really Fun.

[Pešadija]

Rolling barrage? As in that awesome things the brits did in a bridge too far against the forest-entrenched jerries?

[Erik Springelkamp]

1 FO can order all the barrages, and he doesn't even need LOS to the target areas for pre-plotted fire, but starting time can only be chosen on multiples of 5 minutes.

[Erwin]

So, for a small barrage rolling every minute, you only need 5 FO's. Problem solved.

[hcrof]

Shifting fire takes about 5 minutes in CMSF but for 3 of those minutes, the artillery continues to fall on the original location, there is only a pause of 1-2 minutes while the guns shift.

Assuming you have an observer with LoS and loads of ammo you can get a pretty good rolling barrage with only 2 artillery modules. Of course, to be realistic you would need at least 10 modules and by then you can dump as much smoke on the flanks as you like

[StellarRat]

I don't know. I just hope you can specify WP or proximity fuses when available. And maybe your firing pattern.

[Erik Springelkamp]

So, for a small barrage rolling every minute, you only need 5 FO's. Problem solved.

No, because you cannot get fire starting at minute 1, 2, 3, and 4.

And fire that is not pre-plotted is less predictable.

[wokelly]

Using 5 to 100 FOs to create a like effect is kinda placing the burden on the player to go out of his way to represent a common tactic among CW forces IMO. Some kind of option to dictate the width of the barrage, direction, speed per 100 yards (ie barrage moves 100m after 4 minutes) and where it should pause, would be the more user friendly option. Personally I would hope for the Devs to do something for the CW module.

[Michael Emrys]

Personally I would hope for the Devs to do something for the CW module.

And it is your prerogative to do so. I would hope that you can get it. However, we all have to admit that development time is limited, and to get one thing usually means having to give up another. BFC has to set priorities and one criterion of what to work on now, what to work on later, and what to leave on the side of the road is just how much a particular feature is going to get used, taking into consideration the play habits of the whole spectrum of users. If it's only going to be used by a handful of players now and then, unless it's something trivially easy to program, it probably will get set aside in favor of a more often used feature.

Michael

[Destraex1]

Using 5 to 100 FOs to create a like effect is kinda placing the burden on the player to go out of his way to represent a common tactic among CW forces IMO. Some kind of option to dictate the width of the barrage, direction, speed per 100 yards (ie barrage moves 100m after 4 minutes) and where it should pause, would be the more user friendly option. Personally I would hope for the Devs to do something for the CW module.

WoKelly.

I have only skimmed this thread... so I am not exactly sure if its just rolling pre-planned barrages you want.

But would it not be possible to suspend your dis-belief by assuming that pre-planned barrages had happened just ahead of you loading into the map. Broken buildings and damaged vehicles being placed on the map for effect?

Steve is their any kind of marker that indicates pre-laid arty fire zones. That can be called in at any time?

[Lt Belenko]

WoKelly.

I have only skimmed this thread... so I am not exactly sure if its just rolling pre-planned barrages you want.

But would it not be possible to suspend your dis-belief by assuming that pre-planned barrages had happened just ahead of you loading into the map. Broken buildings and damaged vehicles being placed on the map for effect?

Steve is their any kind of marker that indicates pre-laid arty fire zones. That can be called in at any time?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1235004&postcount=48

[JonS]

Lt B,

what you say in the linked post is correct, but it has fairly limited application. If the scen designer does not do that ... then what?

What if I, as a player, want to try attacking that hill (or forest, or village) behind a rolling barrage from within the resources I have available. Sure, I can do it, sort of, as long as the scen designer has given me enough bits and pieces to set it up. But what if alternately I want to attack that hill (forest, village) by using the artillery available in a timed series of concentrations against known or suspected enemy locations? Well, again, I might be able to do that, as long as I've been given the tools. But all that designer-created rubble and destruction is going to look a little odd. And what of the third choice (which is largely the choice that CM expects players to use) which is to just advance and attack targets of opportunity as they pop up?

In other words, it's not that rolling barrages absolutely cannot be done in CM. They can. But they can really only be done if the scenario is specifically set up to cater for them. For that reason they're not really a viable tool in a players tactical toolkit, to be pulled out whenever the tactical situation suggests one might be useful.

Whether the different techniques of applying indirect firepower have any place in CM is an interesting question.

[wokelly]

WoKelly.

I have only skimmed this thread... so I am not exactly sure if its just rolling pre-planned barrages you want.

But would it not be possible to suspend your dis-belief by assuming that pre-planned barrages had happened just ahead of you loading into the map. Broken buildings and damaged vehicles being placed on the map for effect?

Steve is their any kind of marker that indicates pre-laid arty fire zones. That can be called in at any time?

Massive preliminary bombardments can be simulated by broken buildings and craters on the map when you start, but rolling barrages can't. Rolling barrages are not even meant to really kill and destroy, its suppressive effect and concealment which are key. You can't simulate that with a pre-map barrage, the suppressive effect will wear off within a minute before your troops have moved more than 20-30 yards. You basically simulate what did happen when troops missed their barrages or fell behind, the enemy recovers and inflicts heavy losses. The barrage only works if the troops are on its heels. The barrage hits the Germans for 4 minutes while the infantry move up behind it, it lifts and the infantry move in and occupy the ground while the defenders are still dazed and confused (ideally). You need the barrage present during the battle for the effect to work.

I understand battlefront has limited resources, but rolling barrages were a big part of CW arty doctrine. You have rolling barrages leading the Canadian Scottish's counterattack on Putot-en-Bessin on June 9th against the 12th SS, you have rolling barrages in the British battles around Tilly vs the Panzer Lehr, you have rolling barrages leading the infantry attacks during Epsom, you have rolling barrages covering the Canadian attack on Carpiquet airfield and town as they crossed a mile of flat open ground, you have rolling barrages covering the advance of the armoured units for Goodwood and Totalize. This was a common tactic in major operations for company and regimental sized attacks, depending on the map size and battle size it should be available for use. Again the user should not get unlimited rolling barrages, only one and they plan it during the setup phase and lose control over it after like in real life for the most part. The CW module is not finished obviously, hopefully something can be done.

[JonS]

is there any kind of marker that indicates pre-laid arty fire zones. That can be called in at any time?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1225103&postcount=222

[Battlefront.com]

The two cornerstones of a rolling barrage are:

1. Suitable only for a very deliberate attack. Sometimes taking days to get ready for.

2. Required enormous resources to achieve, including copious amounts of ammunition.

Because of these two practical considerations, rolling barrages were a RARE thing on the Western Front proportional to the totality of the combat seen there. Anybody who knows anything about Combat Mission's design philosophy since the start knows that we avoid catering to narrowly applicable tactics. This is one of those cases, without any doubt.

Remember that "scope" is not the same as "scale". CM's scale is roughly a reinforced battalion down to roughly a reinforced platoon. But the scope doesn't include things like beach landings, setting up temporary bridges, clearing mines, opposed river crossings, bluffing the Germans into surrendering en mas, etc. While these things might be within CM's scale, they aren't necessarily within its scope.

Combat Mission can not be all things to all people all the time. The breadth and variety of combat situations precludes this as a realistic possibility.

And as I've said already, several times now, a rolling barrage can be reasonably simulated right now. Even with CM:SF. And you don't need 100 FOs to do it either. In fact, you don't need any FOs at all. While I'm not saying it's perfect, given the importance of supporting this feature TO THE DETRIMENT OF ALL OTHER FEATURES WE COULD ADD, I don't have a problem with it staying exactly as it is.

To me, arguing that the Commonwealth Module requires rolling barrages is as wrong as saying CM:BN requires beach landings.

Steve

[MikeyD]

This conversation reminds me of CMBB. While it was still in development posters said the game simply had to have sewer movement. Sewer movement was talked of as though it was a 'deal breaker'. So they put in sewer movement. Care to guess how often sewer movement got used? Oh, and giant cemetaries to fight in too. Care to guess how many giant cemetaries got built?

[Secondbrooks]

I just don't understand this. We can have like one Mortar platoon firing at spot X for 1 minute. Then another Mortar platoon starts to fire at terrain 100-200 meters behind spot X for another minute while own infantry starts it's assault at spot X. This is very basic method and doesn't demand loads of ammo, just two separate Mortar units. True, it ain't barrage.

More tubes, more ammo and we start to have really good set-up for swifting fires according to plan.

I admit i'm not sharpest tool in the box, but while reading this thread i find my self asking same question time after time after time: "Isn't this already possible?" I did it last time while playing CM Afganistan.

Not entirely as it would go in reality as swifting fires needs separate units, but currently i'm not whining.

[MeatEtr]

I would like to have lice simulated too. Every once in awhile there should be animation of our troops scratching themselves.

[scottie]

This conversation reminds me of CMBB. While it was still in development posters said the game simply had to have sewer movement. Sewer movement was talked of as though it was a 'deal breaker'. So they put in sewer movement. Care to guess how often sewer movement got used? Oh, and giant cemetaries to fight in too. Care to guess how many giant cemetaries got built?

God is that how sewer movement was derived !!! , i remember seeing it in the editor , never understood how to use it in the game or ever wanted too. What a waste of resource

Re rolling barrages , i agree this can be simulated now by pre-game order and linear strikes.

[Chainsaw]

I just don't understand this. We can have like one Mortar platoon firing at spot X for 1 minute. Then another Mortar platoon starts to fire at terrain 100-200 meters behind spot X for another minute while own infantry starts it's assault at spot X. This is very basic method and doesn't demand loads of ammo, just two separate Mortar units. True, it ain't barrage.

More tubes, more ammo and we start to have really good set-up for swifting fires according to plan.

I admit i'm not sharpest tool in the box, but while reading this thread i find my self asking same question time after time after time: "Isn't this already possible?" I did it last time while playing CM Afganistan.

Not entirely as it would go in reality as swifting fires needs separate units, but currently i'm not whining.

Should work. biggest troubble is that the Spotter will loose LOS to next barrage place because the first barrages dust and smoke will block the LOS. Only time this can work is if its done before the game starts so its "pre plotted".