Find this a tad disturbing...

[Erik Springelkamp]

You still get to see the action, it's just not stored so you cannot hit rewind and watch again.

Which sounds strange to me because if I watched the damn thing, it's on my PC in some form somewhere, isn't it? So why no playback? But then I know nothing.

So maybe they implemented it as RealTime with pauses at whole minutes, where you give all the orders, and you are not allowed to give orders during that minute of realtime play - which is your one and only replay.

That would mean there is no blue bar when you hit go! but I have never played that way, so I can't confirm that.

[hdemarcellus]

This doesn't mean the feature isn't important, nor that we're oblivious that to some people this is the defining thing they are waiting for. It just means what we've always said... we can't be all things to all people all the time. Someone will always be disappointed with any decision we make. But if I had to hazard a guess, more people would be upset to have the game delayed even by one day for TCP/IP WeGo than will be upset to have the game ship without it.

Steve

I just joined the forum so I could answer this. Combat Mission is the best game I've ever played, and I've been waiting for a version to come out that was compatible again with my newer operating systems.

While it is true that you can't be all things to all people, presumably you do like to get feedback from hard core users. In my opinion, TCP/IP WeGo is the soul of the game. I haven't played it with a RealTime option, but I imagine it becomes just another game where mouse clicking skills and peripheral hardware setup means more than tactical skill.

I've been waiting for years to play Combat Mission again, and I am happy to keep waiting until I can play against my friends, online, using WeGo.

Henri

[hdemarcellus]

I'm starting to get the impression there will be no tcp/ip wego, flamethrowers, flames or nonprolific/rare/exotic tanks. Did I miss anything? This is getting old.

Mac support. (I'm assuming.)

[jeffsmith]

Mac support. (I'm assuming.)

Normandy will likely ship for the Mac on the same day as the PC.

Steve

See what hapens when you assume

[Battlefront.com]

You still get to see the action, it's just not stored so you cannot hit rewind and watch again.

Which sounds strange to me because if I watched the damn thing, it's on my PC in some form somewhere, isn't it? So why no playback? But then I know nothing.

Erik has hit the nail on the head. The compromise system is simply RealTime with the Commands UI locked out for 60 seconds and an enforced pause just after. The action is streamed and purged, not stored. Which means there is nothing on your system that can be replayed.

Put another way, what we call the Compromise solution leverages a huge amount of code that already exists. The Full solution requires a ton of very complicated code that currently does not exist. Both are technically possible, but one is vastly easier to implement than the other.

While it is true that you can't be all things to all people, presumably you do like to get feedback from hard core users.

Yes, obviously or we wouldn't have this Forum or the daily presence on it The point I keep coming back to is we already have the feedback. Repeating the same feedback over and over and over again doesn't provide us anything we don't already have. Nor will repetition change how it fits into our overall development plan. Therefore, additional feedback on this one particular point serves no practical purpose.

In my opinion, TCP/IP WeGo is the soul of the game. I haven't played it with a RealTime option, but with RealTime, it becomes just another game where mouse clicking skills and peripheral hardware setup means more than tactical skill.

And you are not alone in your opinion. Just like there are guys here who passionately want CM's AI handle tactical decisions (like SSG's games) or have the entire game based on a massive strategic level campaign system (like Close Combat). As I said before, we can't be everything to all people all the time, therefore we aren't fools enough to try. It's simply not possible.

I've been waiting for years to play Combat Mission again, and I am happy to keep waiting until I can play again my friends, online, using WeGo.

Your choice, of course, and it makes no difference to our plans. We are doing what is in the best interests of 99%+ of our customer base by not holding it back for the extreme minority. If we had to delay the game's release for every minority request people come up with we'd never ship the game at all.

Long ago, in the CMBO days, there was an informal poll of players when we asked the question if people thought we should hold up CMBO's release for TCP/IP WeGo or ship without it. The response was clear and without any room for misinterpretation. And considering that the majority of our customers don't even post here, or play anything but solo play, it's a no brainer to ship as soon as the game is ready without TCP/IP WeGo.

Steve

[Mord]

In my opinion, TCP/IP WeGo is the soul of the game.

LOL back in 2005 when they weren't sure about PBEM, THAT was the soul of CM...I guess it all depends on what they haven't done as to what is the soul.

All I can say is at least there is WEGO PBEM and it works much better than the old CMX1 PBEM. One file per email...every email you playback and give orders. Not bad.

We've got TCP/IP RT and WEGO PBEM that's better than nothing and covers both types of players...A good solution would be to get your buddy on an IM and play through email.

Anyway, I'd almost wager money that everybody will end up with what they want...just like the huge PBEM uproar and the blue bar and a few others. They usually treat us pretty good when this kinda stuff comes up. Have heart!

Mord.

P.S. I am really pissed that Steve took a pass on Real Time PBEM...punk!

[sfhand]

Hey, I'd be more than happy to tell Charles "don't bother with TCP/IP WeGo if there is no replay". It would be one less major task for him and we could fill the month or so for that feature with lots of other interesting things. But I'm pretty sure that won't put the issue to rest and I'm also sure that people saying it isn't good enough aren't really thinking it through clearly.

TCP/IP WeGo in CMx1 offers two things that TCP/IP RealTime in CMx2 doesn't offer:

1. WeGo play without having to mess around with PBEM files

2. Replay of the action

For those who don't want to play RT the compromise solution addresses the biggest problem, which is the method of play. It does not, obviously, provide the replay capability. Of the two the replay is the less important feature, as desirable as it might be.

So while lobbying for us to get in TCP/IP WeGo sooner than we can won't change anything, if enough of you TCP/IP WeGoers complain you could convince us to not put in the compromise solution. Therefore, I am advising you guys to be careful for what you ask for.

Steve

Wow, we are miles apart on this... for me the most important feature of the current PBEM and CMx1 TCP/IP WEGO is the replay. The replay is what allows me to have full situational awareness, I can be zoomed in close enough to see the action in different areas of the map with replay rather than trying to remember which icons were flashing while trying to watch the entire battlefield at once.

So it's not that I'm not thinking it through when I say I'd rather have other features, flamethrowers, troops riding tanks, moveable waypoints, than to invest time in a WEGO TCP/IP solution that doesn't move you any closer to WEGO TCP/IP with replay (if I understood your description of what you're going to put in).

[ChrisND]

...but I imagine it becomes just another game where mouse clicking skills and peripheral hardware setup means more than tactical skill.

I'm getting pretty tired of this myth being spread around. It simply isn't true. Real time =/= Starcraft.

True, it's not exactly like WEGO. You have to have some sort of reaction time, but this is mitigated by putting your troops in the right place in the first place, with supporting fires. Which you should be doing anyways. Get into your opponents decision loop. It's almost like real life in some ways! if you actually need to make split-second changes to your troops positions, then you've been doing something wrong in the first place.

Just for the record so there are no misunderstandings, I prefer WEGO. But for smaller scenarios, at or below company size, RealTime is perfectly acceptable to me. There's even a benefit in that there is nonstop action, so you get a great flow of the battle.

[moneymaxx]

Personally I think that WEGO without replay is not worth the effort, since it's the replay that's important. Even against the AI I would prefer RT if it had a replay function.

Since it is obvious that TCP/IP WEGO with replay will not be done (anytime soon), how about "leveraging the existing code base" of PBEM and combine it with TCP/IP. So that while being connected, the computer handles the PBEM-file exchange via TCP/IP instead of email. While waiting for another turn one could watch the replays and with an added chat function it would somehow feel like TCP/IP WEGO with replay. At least for me that would be the better work-around.

If the above seems to much trouble, a similar result could be achieved if the game automated PBEM-file sending and receiving like undead reindeer cavalry suggested. Instead of naming the file, saving it, sending it, scan if a new file has arrived, loading it...... the game would do that for me and without leaving the game it notifies me of a new file. That would make the PBEM crowd happy as well.

[Battlefront.com]

As I said, if people would rather play PBEM instead of TCP/IP WeGo without replay, fine with us. We don't like investing time into half measures either. But that doesn't mean TCP/IP WeGo with replay will come any quicker. As I said, it's not even on our minds to attempt it. There are no shortcuts to implementing it. Automating PBEM to be a very inefficient TCP/IP substitute is a big time sink as well as being a half measure.

As for the RT = Clickfest statement, I've pretty much given up on correcting this. People have their minds made up and no amount of reasoning will change the equation in their heads. Part of the reason is that many WeGoers would quickly turn a CMx2 RT game into a clickfest because they feel they have to micromanage. If you're a micromanager there is no way RT will ever be anything but a painful exercise in futility. For those of us who aren't micromanagers, we probably click less in 10 minutes of RT play than most WeGoers click for 1 minute of play.

Different strokes for different folks. Thankfully we can support both types, regardless of the ignorance of one type about the other

Steve

[MikeyD]

Hey, I'm back. Did miss anything? I was over on a discussion forum for "The Sims" mindlessly bashing that game though I don't play it. You know, just on principle.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I find that a tad disturbing.

[ChrisND]

Hey, I'm back. Did miss anything? I was over on a discussion forum for "The Sims" mindlessly bashing that game though I don't play it. You know, just on principle.

Man, go to the World of Warcraft forums. The very worst here have NOTHING on some of the guys over there!

[noxnoctum]

Wow looks like I kicked a hornet's nest.

TCP/IP WeGo, without Replay, was intended for CM:BN. However, here we are... nearly a year over schedule, and this feature isn't in. We're not interested in keeping everybody waiting so a feature that appeals to a minority can be added. If we prioritized things like that the game would never be done.

This doesn't mean the feature isn't important, nor that we're oblivious that to some people this is the defining thing they are waiting for. It just means what we've always said... we can't be all things to all people all the time. Someone will always be disappointed with any decision we make. But if I had to hazard a guess, more people would be upset to have the game delayed even by one day for TCP/IP WeGo than will be upset to have the game ship without it.

Life is all about compromises. Players can choose not to compromise, but we can't.

TCP/IP WeGo without playback will be in the game at some point. I'm hoping it can be added to CM:BN as it was to CMBO. But I can't make any promises because we have honestly not detailed what will be added post release. We're too busy at the moment.

Steve

That's reassuring, thanks for posting. I'd probably be one to say "delay the game another 6 months to get in tcp-ip WEGO with replay!", but I know I'd probably be in the minority there . That said, I'm not one of those who would say "tcp-ip wego with replay or none at all!" Of course replay is nice, and hugely advantageous and would be especially fun now that it's 1-1 so I could rewatch that dude getting picked off by my sniper over and over ; wego without replay would still be FAR better for conducting large battles then RT. At least I could see what's going on at the end of the turn... I personally would just zoom out to watch it and make sure I don't miss anything. Then take my time issuing my orders to each individual unit and not feel like I have to rush rush rush.

And for the love of everything good don't listen to those who say "tcp-ip wego with replay or none at all!"

[noxnoctum]

Hey, I'm back. Did miss anything? I was over on a discussion forum for "The Sims" mindlessly bashing that game though I don't play it. You know, just on principle.

If that's directed at me (well anyone here actually), it's pretty low. For one, you're a beta tester, so you should conduct yourself with a little more civility towards customers. Every single time I post a thread bringing up a valid issue (see my LOS thread from a while back...the problem with infantry not being able to see like they should if they're on a cliff edge), or asking for a feature/ETA on a feature, you flame me.

I will of course buy the game, simply because it will undoubtedly be the the best tactical wargame currently available, its only competition being Panzer Command: Ostfront (which might turn out really good, remains to be seen). Plus I want to support BFC in the hopes of one day getting tcp-ip wego without replay, then with replay, and finally (I can only hope) a multiplayer lobby and co-play (though the former is more important to me). Lobby hardly needs to be fancy, just something simple... like what tripleA has. (can't post links even though it's open source, just google it).

Secondly, it was not "mindless". I own CMSF, I own Marines, I own NATO (Brits just looked boring, sorry ). Although CM:BfN will obviously play very differently, on every level, CMSF: NATO without wego tcp-ip is identical to CM:BfN without wego tcp-ip, in that I can ONLY play tcp-ip multiplayer in real time, i.e. no big battles (at least no big battles with a decent level of control). So respectfully, at least while you're representing BFC, please watch your mouth. If they boot you off the team for flaming people then by all means, feel free to insult me as you wish, I'll even give you my personal email address .

And Steve, I apologize for bringing it up in two threads at the same time (a bit more "vigorously" in the other ), I was just extremely disappointed at the time since, as you said, you guys were planning on putting it in.

Anyways.... question's been answered (thoroughly and promptly... thanks), so maybe the mods should just lock this thread?

[noxnoctum]

wait and see, the player that gets more input in less time through to his man will win any RT game.

Sun Tsu said that already long time ago

Yes it's called APM (actions per minute---whether that be keyboard clicks or mouse clicks/drags):

(that's Starcraft 1 in the video, but the best players in the world at Stacraft 2---i.e. the ones getting payed to play and practice 10 hours a day---average 300-400 APM a game... absolutely insane... the very best averages 500)

And in case you're wondering, no those shots of them playing are NOT sped up.

Now imagine doing that with a battalion of mech infantry supported by a company of medium tanks, where unlike in Starcraft, you have to account for angles, cover, etc... (Starcraft they're more concerned with microing units to best use their abilities, outrange enemy units and then run off then do it again and again, and so forth... all while managing their base+economy, and keeping in mind the "overall situation" and their plans of attack/defense which can change at the drop of a hat; as an SC2 player I can say it's rather exhausting , and I'm no where NEAR the level of those guys)

[panzermartin]

On RT, CMSF is not by any means a click fest. You have to be fast but what counts more is the accuracy of your clicks and not their number. I've encountered good players and tried the "shock and awe" approach of rushing units. They've beat me with ease simply by not allowing themsleves to be dragged in a fast game but rather make some calm and well thought out planning.

But, its not always the same and you face players who think fast is better and the game turns into a shallow rushing tank/vehicle fest which is an insult for what CMx2 stands for. So, some kind of pause would help to eliminate this and leave some breathing space to collect thoughts and enjoy the depth of the game more. I would prefer a pausing RT to a WeGo without replay, since I think this will combine best of both worlds (How on earth, after the RT fun can someone go back to the "you can watch but you cant touch your units for 1min" thing??? )

[noxnoctum]

On RT, CMSF is not by any means a click fest. You have to be fast but what counts more is the accuracy of your clicks and not their number. I've encountered good players and tried the "shock and awe" approach of rushing units. They've beat me with ease simply by not allowing themsleves to be dragged in a fast game but rather make some calm and well thought out planning.

But, its not always the same and you face players who think fast is better and the game turns into a shallow rushing tank/vehicle fest which is an insult for what CMx2 stands for. So, some kind of pause would help to eliminate this and leave some breathing space to collect thoughts and enjoy the depth of the game more. I would prefer a pausing RT to a WeGo without replay, since I think this will combine best of both worlds (How on earth, after the RT fun can someone go back to the "you can watch but you cant touch your units for 1min" thing???)

Yes some kind of pause thing would be nice. Like an auto-pause every 60 seconds.

I disagree with you on the clickfest thing, being fast is CRUCIAL in RT. Granted, so is making the right tactical moves and not "rushing". The issue is, for example, I can't conduct a good assault with one company on this one block of buildings with supporting fire, etc... while at the same time managing my other company.

Because I've gotta keep track of:

1) Units suppressing the buildings ceasing fire at the correct time, and not wasting ammo if that's an issue.

2) Units suppressing the buildings changing targets if something of opportunity appears (i.e. a tank, and I need to get my Jav out quick!)

3) Assaulting units smoking, and falling back if they encounter too much resistance, or something unforeseen occurs.

4) Assaulting units taking up the best positions in the buildings based on their new field of view.

Try doing that while paying attention to the other company. It's hard. Speed is essential. Either you ignore the other company completely and then 2 minutes later look over and see that half of them are dead/wounded and you have no idea what did it, or you split your attention which results in both your companies operating at less than optimal effectiveness. That is, unless you're a Korean pro gamer .

[panzermartin]

Yes yes, there are so many thing you cant do in online RT. We need a pausing system, it will make the game 1000% better in H2H. I just dont find much sense in doing this in the form of WeGo with no Replay. I would prefer a time out system, a timer or something, that will allow the interaction and directness of RT, the ability to focus and plan more complex moves on more than one spot on the map at the same time, the "luxury" of a phone call break and the common sense option of letting the game roll uninterupted when nothing really happens instead of pausing and clicking GO every 1 min waiting for that 10min arty barrage to start your offensive.

Lastly, it will have the attractive "RealTime" label but with a timer pop up option instead of adding a 9th different way of playing the game. (Well, we can add the 9th when replay comes back )

Just my 2cents from my extensive online experience (pretty much the most time I have spent on CMSF)

[noxnoctum]

Yes, if auto-pause every 60 seconds is easily implemented (there's pause already, so maybe it is? But then, I'm no programmer), it would be fantastic. Actually in some ways superior to wego tcp-ip without replay as you could adjust your orders on the fly during every minute.

Make it so both players have to "un-pause" to recommence hostilities and you have yourself a great stopgap!

[hdemarcellus]

See what hapens when you assume

Well, that's great news! I had scoured the battlefront site and tried my best to search the forums. Thanks very much for letting me know!

[hdemarcellus]

The point I keep coming back to is we already have the feedback. Repeating the same feedback over and over and over again doesn't provide us anything we don't already have. Nor will repetition change how it fits into our overall development plan. Therefore, additional feedback on this one particular point serves no practical purpose.

And you are not alone in your opinion. Just like there are guys here who passionately want CM's AI handle tactical decisions (like SSG's games) or have the entire game based on a massive strategic level campaign system (like Close Combat). As I said before, we can't be everything to all people all the time, therefore we aren't fools enough to try. It's simply not possible.

Your choice, of course, and it makes no difference to our plans. We are doing what is in the best interests of 99%+ of our customer base by not holding it back for the extreme minority. If we had to delay the game's release for every minority request people come up with we'd never ship the game at all.

Long ago, in the CMBO days, there was an informal poll of players when we asked the question if people thought we should hold up CMBO's release for TCP/IP WeGo or ship without it. The response was clear and without any room for misinterpretation. And considering that the majority of our customers don't even post here, or play anything but solo play, it's a no brainer to ship as soon as the game is ready without TCP/IP WeGo.

Steve

Okay. I am grateful for your reply, Steve. I realize that just repeating won't change anything. I just didn't want people to think that it was only important to the originator of this thread. I know there are trade-offs. And I guess what makes the game so good is that different people find so many different aspects to be *crucial*. Good luck with the release!

[hdemarcellus]

I will of course buy the game, simply because it will undoubtedly be the the best tactical wargame currently available.

Wait, are you referring to the Sims here?

[noxnoctum]

Wait, are you referring to the Sims here?

Well durh. What else would I be referring to

[kulik]

Yes some kind of pause thing would be nice. Like an auto-pause every 60 seconds.

Brilliant idea that was suggested couple of times, yet i don't recall that battlefront ever replied to it.

IMO it takes the best from both worlds and would make company level games finally playable through TCP/IP. ...doesn't seems hard to implement either (In some of the module at least.).