CMSFII: Battle in the Balkans

[Sivodsi]

Edit to add: Whoops I mean "Baltic"

This sounds promising:

Nine Nato divisions – US, British, German, and Polish – have been identified for combat operations in the event of armed aggression against Poland or the three Baltic states. North Polish and German ports have been listed for the receipt of naval assault forces and British and US warships. The first Nato exercises under the plan are to take place in the Baltic next year, according to informed sources.

According to the Guardian

[SaberSeven]

Hmm, intriguing. I saw the Balkans subject line, and had to look it over. Baltic? I thought what, is he nuts? The link/article was very interesting though. Love this scenario. A campaign like this is offered, and I can see myself buying the NATO module.

[BlackMoria]

So, it seems the cold war is not over ... it just took a long overdue vacation.

Makes a good case for a possible default campaign setting for CMSF II. Which would make a number of people happy because many people are hoping that CMSF II would feature a NATO vs Russia/NATO vs Warsaw Pact campaign.

I support this, as long as it is current or near future. I would be less enthusiastic about a 1980s-1990s era NATO vs Warsaw Pact showdown.

[Sivodsi]

So, it seems the cold war is not over ... it just took a long overdue vacation.

Makes a good case for a possible default campaign setting for CMSF II. Which would make a number of people happy because many people are hoping that CMSF II would feature a NATO vs Russia/NATO vs Warsaw Pact campaign.

I support this, as long as it is current or near future. I would be less enthusiastic about a 1980s-1990s era NATO vs Warsaw Pact showdown.

You are thinking along the same lines as BFT, as they have mentioned that CM:SFII will feature modern armies from Russia and China as well as modern western ones. I'm looking forward to this.

But an older, historical NATO vs USSR cold war battle is something that I would prefer. Modern stuff is so precise, it doesn't leave much to chance. For example, try advancing into the face of a prepared stryker force and you'll find yourself obliterated by javs. And modern tanks are fire once, hit once.

But go back a few years and you have more of a contest. Early wire guided missiles were not as accurate, and the heavy metal match ups are intriguing: centurions, challengers, pattons, sheridans, leopards, the occasional m103 vs T54/55s, the odd T10, and the more modern T-62,64,72 (without mentioning lighter armor matchups).

Cold war, anywhere between 1950-80 encompasses a fantastic array of weaponry. Who could not be entranced by the prospect of such engagements?

[noxnoctum]

^^^I'm with this guy. Modern weapons suck, funwise, compared to the older stuff.

[Bulgaroktonos]

So, it seems the cold war is not over ... it just took a long overdue vacation.

The baltics and Poland are spazzing out over a Russia that has radically shrunk its military and shows little interest in expansion. NATO has drawn up a token plan to calm them down. This is not a new cold war.

[BlackMoria]

The baltics and Poland are spazzing out over a Russia that has radically shrunk its military and shows little interest in expansion. NATO has drawn up a token plan to calm them down. This is not a new cold war.

Really? From the article:

"Nerves were further set on edge last year when the Russians staged exercises simulating an invasion of the Baltic states and a nuclear attack on Poland"

Interesting that. Not gaming out defensive strategies, which is to be expected if the cold war is truly over. Gaming out offensive operations - not offensive operations in Georgia or Chechena or Ukraine. Offensive operations into NATO territory. That implies a lot.

Of course, if Wikileaks reveals that NATO has been gaming out the invasion of Russia, then I would say you are most likely correct though that type of paper exercise is not prudent in my opinion. Exercises simulating the invasion of your so called 'ally' can only be considered in the worst possible light.

Putin says one thing and does another. I wouldn't take the downsizing of the Russian army and Putin's rhetoric as anything other than cost cutting and the usual political rhetoric of saying one thing while contemplating another.

[Sergei]

That is hardly the same thing as a cold war.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

the armed forces of the baltic triplet is not overly impressive. other than the platoon of finnish instructors located in eastonia that singlehandedly defeat the first wave of russkie hordes.

[BlackMoria]

the armed forces of the baltic triplet is not overly impressive. other than the platoon of finnish instructors located in eastonia that singlehandedly defeat the first wave of russkie hordes.

Well, in 1939. I think CMSF II will be set in a much later time period.

[Lethaface]

Russia and Europe are quite dependent on each other, so invasions are not really on the table of any sane strategic mind. I think it is Russia that is scared at this time, not the other way around. They have been showing force for a couple of years, in my eyes as to let the world know that they are still there and intending to remain a important force in the world.

The clash of civilizations is no longer between capitalism VS communism, and neither between 'Sovjets' and 'The West'...

[vincere]

Russia and Europe are quite dependent on each other, so invasions are not really on the table of any sane strategic mind. I think it is Russia that is scared at this time, not the other way around. They have been showing force for a couple of years, in my eyes as to let the world know that they are still there and intending to remain a important force in the world.

The clash of civilizations is no longer between capitalism VS communism, and neither between 'Sovjets' and 'The West'...

I'd buy into that analysis, with an exception. An iron leader takes the helms in tough times and is bent on armed expansion. That said, Russia has remained a logical player in brinksmanship for a long time.

At some point China may look more like a threat to Russia, and as communism and capitalism got into bed to see off Germany then under some improbable but possible circumstances why not do it again.

[LongLeftFlank]

At some point China may look more like a threat to Russia

That's where my particular WWIII bet is placed (hope it's 00, not Red/Green).

[Erwin]

Don't forget India-China. One of the few strategic decisions the Bush admin made that made sense was to help India with nuke tech. (ie: Let these two competitors for global dominance destroy each other.) India and China are already tense as they are direct competitors re massive amounts of people and cheap production, and need oil (from the same places).

[WillyPete2171]

Edit to add: Whoops I mean "Baltic"

This sounds promising:

According to the Guardian

Promising? Lol - promising for our next world war? I imagine that if Russian were to get a little pushy it might want to take back the Baltic states. Keep in mind that the Baltic states have experienced an amazing amount of economic growth over the past twenty years. I think thats quite realistic for Russian wanting to get them back under its control. Going after Poland though is going a bit too far.

[Sergei]

Keep in mind that the Baltic states have experienced an amazing amount of economic growth over the past twenty years. I think thats quite realistic for Russian wanting to get them back under its control.

How is that realistic? How could Russia benefit from past economic growth in the Baltic republics when most of it comes from tourism and trade? It's not like there are valuable natural resources or huge production facilities that you could just occupy for profit. Compared to the cost of a war and occupation and losing all trade with the west, it would make no economic sense at all.

[Lethaface]

And since they are in NATO, it doesn't make military sense either.

[Erwin]

I find it hard to imagine anyone going to war with Russia to save the Baltics this time around - any more than they were saved last time.

The problem is that the Russians have always had the hots for the Baltics, their ports (St. P gets frozen in during winter), strategic location etc.

Both my and my wife's families come from there (and still are there) - Estonia and Latvia. The social problem is that the countries were resettled by hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Russians, so there is a built-in 5th column and desire to have Russia take over again.

[Sergei]

I find it hard to imagine anyone going to war with Russia to save the Baltics this time around - any more than they were saved last time.

Oh come on, now. In 1939 the Baltic republics were not allied with anyone, and they accepted their fate without a fight unlike Finland. There never was a war that could have been joined!

In contrast, today they belong to NATO. What is the purpose of NATO if not to defend its members from foreign aggression? To send young men to die in Afghan clan brawls?

Waterways to St. Petersburg may get frozen in the winter, but that was in the days of Peter I. Nowadays there are icebreakers to allow shipping all year round. One might as well mention that the Balts are heathens that must be converted to Orthodox faith, it would be just as plausible cause for a war in the 21st century!

[Sequoia]

I thought we were going to war with North Korea? Oh that was last week.

[vincere]

That's where my particular WWIII bet is placed (hope it's 00, not Red/Green).

Yeah, pretty high on my list. But I keep thinking about great wars of the past.

The examples of the two biggest kids on the block.

And examples of personalities being drivers of events that would have had very different predictions 5 or 10 years before they peak.

Also the dark horses, events and economic shocks that are that are not planned for.

[Alan8325]

If we are talking "near future" for CMSF2 my personal opinion is that China is the easy RED side, given their economic growth and nationalism. The biggest pro for Russia, if there has to be a decision to pick one relatively evenly matched "bad guy" over the other, is that much of the work on their equipment is already done. I'm not familiar with China-Russia relations to know if it would be realistic, but a hypothetical conflict with a China/Russia alliance vs. U.S./NATO would be interesting, as long as a game like that wouldn't take 10 years to develop. Of course the initial game wouldn't necessarily have to have everybody in it as there would presumably be at least 3 modules.

Another option is to split it into different games like the WWII series. The first game could include the U.S. and Russia and involve conflict in eastern Europe with subsequent modules adding European nations and/or new elements of the Russian and U.S. militaries. The second game could then be U.S. and China and take place near the Korean peninsula or eastern China. Modules may include Korean or Japanese forces, given a hypothetical scenario where Japan throws out article 9 of its constitution to develop a larger military capability. IDK how far BF would like to take it but if we are talking hypothetical then there's pretty much an infinite number of possibilities.

[hellfish]

I think China would be the most fun. PLA/US Army core (US stuff is basically already done), then modules adding North and South Korea, USMC (also done, except maybe add EFV/MPV) and PLAN marines, Russia, NATO/EU...

It would be a lot of fun just from the combinations offered.

[finalcut]

I think the next war will be Zimbabwe invading Russia.

Seriously though,there will be no more wars in the future,after all,the United Nations was created after World War Two to make sure there will be lasting World peace and an end to Warfare and Human suffering.They have done an outstanding job the last 60 years.Don't ya think.

[Lethaface]

I find it hard to imagine anyone going to war with Russia to save the Baltics this time around - any more than they were saved last time.

The problem is that the Russians have always had the hots for the Baltics, their ports (St. P gets frozen in during winter), strategic location etc.

Both my and my wife's families come from there (and still are there) - Estonia and Latvia. The social problem is that the countries were resettled by hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Russians, so there is a built-in 5th column and desire to have Russia take over again.

Well, remember Kalinigrad? Its Russian with sea access. I'm 1/8 descendant from 'Konigsbergers', which was the Prussian name for Kalinigrad.

Although you are from the Baltics and therefore have more insight about the region, I don't think that Russia will try to gain the Baltics. Perhaps if they were going for all of west-europe, but they won't risk all out warfare for three marginal states. Not to be insulting here, but that's how it is. Hell if The Netherlands were there, I would say the same. We even have the Rotterdam port, but our country isn't worth it to start a major conflict. Now if you are going for the whole of Benelux and France, then yes the Rotterdam port is useful, especially when you are owning Germany. But Russia has little no none advantage over owning the Baltic states. Sure, they feel its their sphere of influence, but this ain't no CIV game...

Georgia's pipelines and other area's are way higher on the list, so if I were you I would enjoy my nightrest..