Will the QB system have randomly generated maps...

[JonS]

So situations where you need this option:

1) Stealth situations

CM, in any version, was never AFAIK intended to be used for SAS/Commando/SEAL stuff. It's a conventional, force-on-force game, not Splinter Cell or Rainbow Six.

Using the editor it's easy enough to set up missions that superficially look like stealth missions (and with enough time and effort it's even possible to create 'stealth' scenario that play ok), but the game simply isn't designed to work that way.

2) Situations where your squad is too depleted of men to be able to split squad

Then get another squad, use some remote overwatch, or decide that going into that building just isn't a good idea. Sometimes you come across problems that just can't be solved.

3) Situations where you've managed to sneak your squad(s) into a good position and want your whole force to charge into a building(s) guns blazing instead of having your covering element open fire giving their position away to that tiger parked down the street so they can get decimated while your assault team is clearing out said building(s).

Then get another squad, use some remote overwatch, or decide that going into that building just isn't a good idea. Or fire from outside in. Or grip up your nuts, distract the guys inside somehow then pick your moment and try your luck. Sometimes it'll work. Mostly not, but sometimes yes.

If you want certainty, may I suggest chess?

[noxnoctum]

I just like options, and not seeing retarded looking animations . Another cool animation BFC has done is the hunt animation. Very nice. I'm sure they're capable of doing an "assault building" command complete with throwing a grenade in through the window/door first and having it look great but they already have enough on their plate... like I said... maybe in CMx2:Ostfront.

[hoolaman]

1) Stealth situations

2) Situations where your squad is too depleted of men to be able to split squad

3) Situations where you've managed to sneak your squad(s) into a good position and want your whole force to charge into a building(s) guns blazing instead of having your covering element open fire giving their position away to that tiger parked down the street so they can get decimated while your assault team is clearing out said building(s).

I almost never split squads and I never ever use the assault command.

Are you running into a building because you have already spotted and identified that the building contains enemy troops? If so the game can simulate intel and give a better chance to spot the units inside. But ultimately if you barge into a building you still have to locate the enemy inside before they locate you, even if you know they are in there. If you don't know they are in there, then two guys with AK's concealed in the corner may very well cause a lot of damage if they have not been supressed. It may look goofy, but the internals of buildings are simulated to some degree, and the results seem plausible to me most of the time.

So I don't understand your problem because you actually can do those things to a reasonable approximation.

In CMSF you can sneak up on a building unobserved, then open fire with grenades and rush in. And I note that your linked video actually showed the suppression happening from outside with grenades, not kicking down the door guns blazing. They also had covering fire from other units across the river.

One thing that will never be simulated in CM is off-duty troops that are making dinner or on the toilet and totally unready for combat.

[noxnoctum]

I almost never split squads and I never ever use the assault command.

Are you running into a building because you have already spotted and identified that the building contains enemy troops? If so the game can simulate intel and give a better chance to spot the units inside. But ultimately if you barge into a building you still have to locate the enemy inside before they locate you, even if you know they are in there. If you don't know they are in there, then two guys with AK's concealed in the corner may very well cause a lot of damage if they have not been supressed. It may look goofy, but the internals of buildings are simulated to some degree, and the results seem plausible to me most of the time.

So I don't understand your problem because you actually can do those things to a reasonable approximation.

In CMSF you can sneak up on a building unobserved, then open fire with grenades and rush in. And I note that your linked video actually showed the suppression happening from outside with grenades, not kicking down the door guns blazing. They also had covering fire from other units across the river.

One thing that will never be simulated in CM is off-duty troops that are making dinner or on the toilet and totally unready for combat.

Yes of course you can sneak up to a building and then start lobbing grenades/shooting at it. But what I'm saying is different, I'm talking about storming a room.

As it is now, what you have to do as Paper Tiger pointed out is suppress with one element, then target light once you're right next to the building and THEN move in and hope they aren't elite troops who aren't cowering in the corner. The problem is simply this: When a squad is ordered into a building they sprint in to the action/area waypoint or whatever it's called (you know how you cannot give precise waypoints within buildings, it's just, go to this building, on this floor), they get to the waypoint and THEN they scan for targets. Now this is not how it should be, it should be like the video I posted.

As for the video, it was a prisoner snatch, hence the no shooting. They wanted them alive. The rifle grenade was just to scare crap outta the Germans inside. And then the second guy threw ANOTHER grenade in through the other window and busts the door open (unfortunately for him his own grenade kills him).

Sadly, that video (from Band of Brothers as I'm sure you know) cuts out the part where they're shoving their garands in the terrified Germans' faces and yelling at them to get on their knees. That's what I'm talking about. A squad moving into a building with their guns prepped and and ready to fill with holes anything that looks hostile. As for the suppressive fire from across the river, like I said, it only happened AFTER they were running back to the boats to get back to the Allied side. (in the full scene they're blowing whistles to signal the machine gunners to start firing)

Anyways, I'm going to stop arguing/debating now. I always feel like a retard arguing on the internet, it's kinda pointless, especially when it's unlikely this feature will be implemented, especially since so many seem to not see the need for it.

[Ron]

Anyways, I'm going to stop arguing/debating now. I always feel like a retard arguing on the internet, it's kinda pointless, especially when it's unlikely this feature will be implemented, especially since so many seem to not see the need for it.

What feature is that you are arguing for/against? That you shouldn't have to target a building to suppress the occupants? That you should model an effect based on a TV series? That the game should do everything for you? CMSF tends to model the simulation side of things, perhaps that's why so many seem not to concur with your vision of things.

[Mord]

Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

Mord.

[umlaut]

No, it isn´t

;-)

[TheGreatRadish]

Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

Mord.

I told you once.

[MeatEtr]

Damn, and here I was hoping to argue with somebody about CMx1 Ops Vs. CMx2 Cams. What a big letdown, it's as if nobody even noticed my post. :mad:

[ChrisND]

Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

Mord.

No no, this the abuse room!

[ChrisND]

20 steps forward? LOL. Like the the removal of a real QB system? (yes I know it will added in CMN thank God), the fact that you can't play wego over tcpip (and will be able to in CMN but only without replay according to one of Steve's posts), the fact that the linear campaigns unequivocally suck compared to the "Operations" of CMx1. It's like I'm playing an RTS campaign practically..

Others have addressed the other points before I could get to them, but this is a classic example of confirmation bias. You've already picked your position, and nothing will steer you from it. Notice that the only things that get mentioned here are negatives. You are also confusing facts with your opinions (operations vs. campaign).

I'd say a good 80% at least of the forum agreed with me on this point in the past, but it seems that they've just "accepted" it now, since BFC have made their decision, as misguided as it is.

Opinion with zero evidence to support it. Not that the game's de/merits are ruled on by forum committee anyways.

[Dietrich]

I split squads up and give the overwatching split teams Target Light fire commands while the assault team approaches the building, often using infantry-placed smoke to boot. But I don't just rush the assault team in there. I stop them outside the door and give them a Target Light command for a few seconds and then go in.

When did I say I didn't provide cover fire when assaulting?

noxnoctum,

When you say covering fire, do you mean suppressing fire? Because having overwatch units standing by to deliver fire on enemy units that suddenly appear (often after they've inflicted casualties on the actual assault element) is not the same as delivering suppressive fire on suspected enemy positions immediately before and possibly also during the assault.

The point is here though, that it shouldn't be necessary.

So basically you're saying that the Assault command should make pixeltruppen move swiftly but with good situational awareness, deliver suppressive fire on whatever location/area corresponds to the waypoint, lob grenades into each building/room before entering, and fire on the move while entering. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Wengart]

In answer to the original complaint: 1:1 prevents random maps. I believe it was the step from 20 meter tiles to 10 meter tiles combined with the ability to mix terrain (woods on rocky ground with small bushes) that prevents the use of random maps.

[hoolaman]

Yes of course you can sneak up to a building and then start lobbing grenades/shooting at it. But what I'm saying is different, I'm talking about storming a room.

As it is now, what you have to do as Paper Tiger pointed out is suppress with one element, then target light once you're right next to the building and THEN move in and hope they aren't elite troops who aren't cowering in the corner. The problem is simply this: When a squad is ordered into a building they sprint in to the action/area waypoint or whatever it's called (you know how you cannot give precise waypoints within buildings, it's just, go to this building, on this floor), they get to the waypoint and THEN they scan for targets. Now this is not how it should be, it should be like the video I posted.

Remember that the inside of buildings are abstracted, so marching into a room does not mean marching in then scanning, that is not what happens in my experience anyway. It is an abstracted room clearing thing, where there is some element of chance, but I frequently see my own more experience troops spot and kill first, especially if they have <?> contacts.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

In answer to the original complaint: 1:1 prevents random maps.

Does it? What does 1:1 have to do with this:

I believe it was the step from 20 meter tiles to 10 meter tiles combined with the ability to mix terrain (woods on rocky ground with small bushes) that prevents the use of random maps.

[noxnoctum]

noxnoctum,

When you say covering fire, do you mean suppressing fire? Because having overwatch units standing by to deliver fire on enemy units that suddenly appear (often after they've inflicted casualties on the actual assault element) is not the same as delivering suppressive fire on suspected enemy positions immediately before and possibly also during the assault.

So basically you're saying that the Assault command should make pixeltruppen move swiftly but with good situational awareness, deliver suppressive fire on whatever location/area corresponds to the waypoint, lob grenades into each building/room before entering, and fire on the move while entering. Am I understanding you correctly?

Ah finally a man who understands. Ok I'll post one quick last thing before I start feeling like a retard again for arguing on the internet. (but in your case my friend, I'm not arguing )

Yes when I said covering I meant suppressing as in shooting at a suspected enemy occupied building prior to the assault team moving in.

And yes you summed up exactly what I want the assault command to be, or at least an "assault building" command to be. Thanks for expressing it in a clear concise way that I obviously wasn't able to do. I want it to be like the "clear room" orders in Rainbow Six Raven Shield and Swat 4.

Ok no more posts in this thread. I promise. I'm not going to argue with beta testers LOL. (kinda like trying to convince Bill Gates that Apple is a better company with better products... or maybe he knows it but doesn't care cause he resides on a giant tower of money)

[ChrisND]

Ok no more posts in this thread. I promise. I'm not going to argue with beta testers LOL. (kinda like trying to convince Bill Gates that Apple is a better company with better products... or maybe he knows it but doesn't care cause he resides on a giant tower of money)

So you run away when people actually challenge your opinionated posts. Got it.

[Paper Tiger]

Ah finally a man who understands.

Don't kid yourself! I knew what you were posting about and you know it. Further, your history of posts in this thread demonstrates that you are simply an opportunistic poster with little or no intellectual integrity. You've just been lashing out, hoping that someone would enter into the debate (the 80% brigade) and back you up. (1:1 representation, removal of a real QB system, can't play WEGO tcpip, linear campaigns vs operations, RTS simulation) Really trying to punch all the buttons.

Ok I'll post one quick last thing before I start feeling like a retard again for arguing on the internet. (but in your case my friend, I'm not arguing )

Dietrich has provided you with a face saving exit from this thread which you avail yourself of and give the finger to the brainwashed masses in doing so. You are SO transparent.

[Wengart]

Sorry it was unclear, I meant that 1:1 doesn't have anything to do with it.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Sorry it was unclear, I meant that 1:1 doesn't have anything to do with it.

Ah, OK! That makes a lot more sense, and I agree with you!

[stikkypixie]

I guess some extra routine where, before entering the building where enemy units have been sighted a couple of grenades are tossed would be nice. This could be done manually or automatically, I don't care. Right now you have to spend two turns to do this. One to throw and one to actually enter. This can result in a lot of wasted grenades.

As for the wandering around part. I just assume that's an abstraction.

Just my two cents.

[Battlefront.com]

Yesh, missed this one until now. Not that I really missed anything because, as Normal Dude correctly summed up...

Others have addressed the other points before I could get to them, but this is a classic example of confirmation bias. You've already picked your position, and nothing will steer you from it. Notice that the only things that get mentioned here are negatives. You are also confusing facts with your opinions (operations vs. campaign).

That's it, completely. Opinions stated as facts, facts stated as opinions... when someone starts to argue strongly with these things flipped around there's generally no room for rational discussion.

One thing that is quite factually incorrect (amongst most of the rest!) is the bit about 1:1 supposedly killing off random maps. The rest of you lot have got it right... 1:1 had absolutely nothing to do with this. At least not directly.

A simulation has to have a balance of elements for it to work. If the elements are too far out of alignment (scale) with each other then the simulation aspect falls apart. When we decided to do 1:1 we also had to increase the fidelity of the terrain over CMx1. Or perhaps when we decided to do higher fidelity terrain we had to go with 1:1. It's really impossible to say because we wanted to do both and we actually had to do both. One without the other would have been a disaster as well as a missed opportunity to improve the game experience.

The element that directly nixed random maps was the terrain fidelity. The CMx1 system was extremely crude by CMx2 standards, though not necessarily all that bad compared to most wargames of the time (Close Combat definitely excepted). Yet the random map generator for CMx1 was just "functional". Usually it made competent maps, sometimes it made really good maps. It sometimes also produced real turds The coding time needed to make an exponentially better random map generator to match the exponentially more complicated terrain was a no-go from the very start. It's simply not worth the investment in time, which in turn comes at the expense of other features. Since the likely end result would be a fairly crappy map generator, yet a significant chunk of development time, we skipped it on purpose.

As far as I can see, CMx2 will never have a random map generator. The MegaTile concept is definitely going to happen at some point. This will provide random maps from premade pieces. This is something that we think will come out quite well and people will be happy with, therefore it's worth doing.

Steve

[panzermartin]

Yes! Mega tiles! This feature will rock if done with some care. And I dont think many computer games have used this before.

I would be happy though with some *basic* random generator in the editor. I'm not lazy but it would be nice if you could have a base terrain with just hills and roads instead of starting from scratch. You could then go on and fine tune the details, adding buildings, vegetation etc. Sometimes a creator/artist can take advantage of a random "accident" that creates an interesting feature he can then extend to a great complete work.

But even just a click and drag road drawing tool will be invaluable!

[futon river crossing]

Will it be possible to have user made tiles for the "mega tile" system?

[TheGreatRadish]

Could someone please explain the mega tile concept to me (or direct me to a thread which does)? I mean, what would it mean to a bog-standard pick up and play fella like me? (I don't have the talent or patience to design scenarios myself). How would it differ from what we had in CMx1 and what we have in CMSF?