Any sentiment for WEGO turns ||e?

[hoolaman]

Just out of curiosity, what is the thread title supposed to say?

[Tactical Wargamer]

WEGO is the only way to go.... RT that is not pausible or does not have a varibale speed setting wrecks games IMHO. I find I am rushed and can only control minimal units. The game has an arcade feel to it in RT. Too bad though RT seems to be "in" now a days with WEGO getting less and less development time

<sniff>

[WimpB]

Ambiguity over whether CMSF had WEGO turns or was real-time basically turned me off from buying it.

I wouldn't mind if you could adjust the length of WEGO turns, but I'm really not interested in another real time game. For me at least, WEGO turns added a lot to the game.

[norvandave]

You are FORCED to accept the results of your tactics while you watch the replay phase. Too bad if you told a whole squad to advance into a kill sack.

I couldn't agree more c3k. CM is about commanding troops. In reality it takes troops some time to react to new commands. They have to first receive the order, acknowledge the order then assess the new situation to determine the best way to carry out the order.

In my opinion CM should not be a clickfest with robotic troops instantly doing exactly as you request. You give an order and see the effect. That to me is the beauty of CM.

[Paper Tiger]

Wow! Three posts complaining about the implementation of RT. You don't see many of us RT guys complaining about the attention that has been given to WEGo. We're very happy that folks have that option to play with. Why can't you just be happy for us too.

[ChrisND]

Wow! Three posts complaining about the implementation of RT. You don't see many of us RT guys complaining about the attention that has been given to WEGo. We're very happy that folks have that option to play with. Why can't you just be happy for us too.

Didn't you know? WEGO is what TRUE wargamers play. Anything else is a clickfest.

[Destraex1]

are you saying a true wargamer is an inept, clumsy, indecisive person that in real life takes an hour to decide whether to shoot when presented with an enemy? A person that cannot handle combat not being perfect, but instead an art and a jugglers skill.

You have advantages over our real life brethren in an almost god like view of the battlefield, use it. In RL sometimes commanders lose men before they can radio they are even under fire.

What I am really waiting for apart from CM Normandy is coop vs the AI. I regularly do this with Company of heroes battle of the bulge mod atm. Its a real blast. The problem in this game would be that their are only so many AI programmed routes and so it would get stale fast?

[Thomm]

Why can't you just be happy for us too.

Command delays have been removed because of RT, e.g.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Jonny(FGM)]

And by making the engine real time and then fudging it for WEGO (yes i know it would be a lot harder to make the engine real time and then fudge it for RT) inevitably means some things don't work as well in WEGO as RT.

[LongLeftFlank]

I say again, if the troops behaved like real men under fire (i.e. when taken under fire took immediate action to minimize further casualties) without the need for intervention by the player, RT would be all I'd play. But since they don't I have found that there is a definite limit on the "span of control" that RT allows before there's so much pausing that WEGO is a better option.

[Phantom Captain]

I'm gonna have to cast my vote in for WEGO as well. The earlier WW2 CMs conditioned me to it. Playing almost all CMBB or AK or even BO as PBEM refined it. Now I can pretty much only play CMSF in WEGO. I have no problems at all having a battle take a week and really enjoy it that way. I find myself contemplating and thinking about my tactics and next moves between time in front of the computer. It's just naturally how CM works for me.

I tried to play RT when I first got the game but it just didn't do anything for me, felt like too much of an overstressful click fest and too much out of my control. Then again I, like some other old fogies here, cut my teeth on table top wargaming and was never a huge fan of RT strategy games in the first place. CM always felt "like home" to me.

[ChrisND]

I play both ways. My basic rule of thumb is:

- If it is medium sized to small, there aren't two or more totally separate units to control at once, and I'm not on a strict time limit, I play Real Time. Contrary to how some like to envision Real Time, I'm not yelling leet speak at the the top of my lungs while clicking on everything as fast possible, building more workers to gather crystals, and using hot keys to research my unit powerups. I actually take my time in Real Time and move units carefully, taking advantage of the facts that if a unit rounds a corner and something mean is there, I can instantly order them the heck out of there, and also the fact that I can move units in baby steps without waiting around for a whole minute to move them again.

Anything larger than a medium size battle, or if I have to control more than one separate unit though, and I go WEGO. I don't like multitasking usually. And it's fun to plot out lengthy and intricate orders and watch the AI pull it off.

[Paper Tiger]

Thomm

CMx2 having no Command delays is a design decision and not an engine limitation. A bit like the deploy/set-up times for various weapons systems in the game. I'm sure it could be coded in if Steve wanted them in the game. So that's not one of the 'Reasons to be Miserable Part 3'.

John(FMG)

In your opinion. what has been fudged? The WEGO experience is considerably better for the game being based on a RT engine. Since the v1.11 patch, nearly two years ago, you've had CMx1's WEGO functionality restored.

Just be happy, guys. It's a game...

[Battlefront.com]

Shesh... this topic comes up almost as often as "my daddy is better than yours" or "your mom is a slut, mine is a virgin" threads. Or somefink like that

People have their own preferences for which method to play with. Each method of play has its own quirks, pros, and cons. Neither one is "realistic" because both allow the player vastly more control and coordination than any real world commander has. So most of the arguments I read about why WeGo is better than RT, or RT is better than WeGo, usually boil down to personal preferences and not any sort of empirical reason.

The other thing that makes me chuckle in these discussions is people LOVE to emphasize the pros of their chosen method of play and the cons of the other method of play. As if there are only pros on one side and cons on the other. That's complete bunk There are plenty of things to compliment and gripe about in both methods of play, even if a person chooses to overlook them so as to not question their own play preference.

A few comments...

Command delays have been removed because of RT, e.g.

A common, but inaccurate, statement. Command Delays were left out because they never really worked right in CMx1 and were, to some extent, unpopular. We consciously decided to exclude them from CMx2 and continue to do that. However, we will probably put in a replacement feature for it sometime down the road.

And by making the engine real time and then fudging it for WEGO (yes i know it would be a lot harder to make the engine real time and then fudge it for RT) inevitably means some things don't work as well in WEGO as RT.

No, it would be impossible to make a WeGo engine RT and not just harder. But it doesn't really matter. Whenever I hear the statement "things don't work as well for WeGo because the engine is RT" the reasons given always fall into two categories:

1. Factually incorrect

2. Not related to the RT nature

Thomm's repetition of an often cited urban legend is an example of something that is both factually incorrect and not related to the RT nature

I say again, if the troops behaved like real men under fire (i.e. when taken under fire took immediate action to minimize further casualties) without the need for intervention by the player, RT would be all I'd play. But since they don't I have found that there is a definite limit on the "span of control" that RT allows before there's so much pausing that WEGO is a better option.

Scope complexity (which is more than unit counts) is absolutely one of the things that can make RT impractical, and therefore it absolutely can be counted as a "con" when compared to WeGo. Just like one of the cons of WeGo is it takes a lot longer to complete a game compared to RT. It is also true to say that RT discourages unrealistic micromanagement, WeGo encourages it. As I said above, I could go on and on and on about the pros and cons of each side because both have plenty of them to choose from.

And finally, something PaperTiger said...

Wow! Three posts complaining about the implementation of RT. You don't see many of us RT guys complaining about the attention that has been given to WEGo. We're very happy that folks have that option to play with. Why can't you just be happy for us too.

Not going to happen Back when we first put out CMBO we had the IGOYOUGO and RT people attacking Combat Mission for being neither. WeGoers developed a knack for being hyper defensive and slamming everybody else as being inferior. It's a very hard habit to kick. Still, it is fun to see the RT guys being the calm, rational, patient ones in these discussions and the WeGoers pursuing some sort of Holy War against a feature which, whether they know it or not, helps the WeGo experience be better than it was in CMx1.

Personally, I think all things considered WeGo is still the best overall, all purpose method for playing wargames. Yet for some reason I can no longer play CMx2 in WeGo mode for more than the occasional reason (usually testing). Which underscores that there is a certain "something" that SOME people get from RT that can not be duplicated in WeGo.

The good news is we will continue to support both WeGo and RT for the entire life of the CMx2 engine.

Steve

[Pvt. Ryan]

I like the moment by moment control I have with RT, but I miss the replays from WEGO.

[Paper Tiger]

Still, it is fun to see the RT guys being the calm, rational, patient ones in these discussions

I'm not sure that I fall under the category of 'calm, rational patient ones' . Maybe in this instance, yes.

[Dietrich]

Contrary to how some like to envision Real Time, I'm not yelling leet speak at the the top of my lungs while clicking on everything as fast possible, building more workers to gather crystals, and using hot keys to research my unit powerups.

"C'mon, XO Team, harvest carbon from that bit of shrubbery! . . . Why aren't you doing it?!?!?!?"*

*clears throat* Um, yeah, I like real-time. ' But not to the exclusion of WeGo. =)

* How's that for calm and rational? =P

[Thomm]

Thomm's repetition of an often cited urban legend is an example of something that is both factually incorrect and not related to the RT nature

Blah.

While I basically only play RT, there is one field where I cannot imagine RT ever becoming an alternative to WeGo: Multi-player.

Best regards,

Thomm

[ChrisND]

While I basically only play RT, there is one field where I cannot imagine RT ever becoming an alternative to WeGo: Multi-player.

Totally agree. Over platoon sized, and MP RT is too hard for me.

[Tactical Wargamer]

Didn't you know? WEGO is what TRUE wargamers play. Anything else is a clickfest.

Here here!!

[Phantom Captain]

I wasn't trying to disparage RT by any means! If you enjoy it that way, more power to you! I just find I'm more comfortable with the pace of WEGO and the turn replay as it's what I'm so used to.

Matter of fact I actually did enjoy some of the older RT strategy games when they first came out and could have fun with them (power ups and crystals and bases and tank farms, etc, etc, etc) for what they were. That was many many moons ago though. I just never got super involved in them.

All this talk has got me thinking about trying RT for a small engagement. But I know it will never replace WEGO for me.

[AkumaSD]

All this talk has got me thinking about trying RT for a small engagement.

I find a nice middle ground when I play in RT but use the pause key to issue my orders. This obviously doesn't work in multiplayer though. Playing the game in full RT is too fast for me and turn based is a little slow for my personal tastes.

[Tactical Wargamer]

I find a nice middle ground when I play in RT but use the pause key to issue my orders. This obviously doesn't work in multiplayer though. Playing the game in full RT is too fast for me and turn based is a little slow for my personal tastes.

I agree I think they would transition us WEGO (old timers) chaps to RT if they could just place a pause option or a variable speed setting of some sort.(I think it is on the list for Steve just not that hgih )

Paradox does this quite well for their platforms re. MP games that have both of the above features.

[sfhand]

A couple of thoughts...

If/when a command delay replacement feature is put in -what ever the heck that is- I hope it is an optional feature if it actually adds arbitrary command delays.

If the AI were "more powerful" a WEGO player wouldn't have as many items to "concern" him/herself with. (e.g., MOUT in WEGO really needs a high level of player micromanagement)

While I've seen a few others complain about RT I think the vast majority of us realize that having the game include both increases its customer base which, in theory at least, should result in more titles... and sooner!!!

Since I basically only play pbem I laugh at the notion that WEGO "takes longer" to play. More time to complete a scenario against the AI? Sure, but my game time is broken down into 1-5 minute sessions (granted more on the setup turn but my understanding is RT has a setup turn as well). If I want to play for longer periods of time I can fire up a scenario and play against the AI and then save it if it starts taking too long. The bottom line is the game doesn't dictate how long I play it.

[AkumaSD]

if they could just place a pause option

Hitting the ESC key when playing RT pauses the game but allows camera movement and issuing of orders. I hope I read your post correctly, seems like the game already supports what you're asking for.

I still enjoy playing WEGO on small maps with a 30min time limit.