About to finally dip my toe in the pool....

[Phantom Captain]

Hey fellas!

Been awhile since I contributed to these here boards. Never gave up on CMBB or CMAK and still play with a regular PBEM partner all the time. I used to be "Lord Dragon" before changing my handle and was around for all the old games, tournaments and sneak peeks at Rune's house.

Have to admit though I never got sucked into the new games as I was always sidetracked by the WWII goodness that CM is/was and then some other Civil War stuff. Always meant to but seemed to always just put it off, don't know why. I have the feeling that I'm going to get drawn into this now just as bad as the old CM.

Anyway, I'm finally gonna take the plunge! I dl'ed the demo and want to start playing around with it this evening. I'm thinking I'll buy the SF and Marines bundle pack shortly.

So what am I in for? What are going to be the big stumbling blocks for an old school CM player? Obviously I know we have real time now among other things but I'm just curious what to be aware of from the start. I'm hoping my familiarity with the old CM will ease me into this to some degree. Any tips for an old schooler still caught up in the eastern front?

Have to say I'm pretty excited and really looking forward to this now, way more than I have been since it was released. At first the whole modern era just wasn't my thing but I must admit I'm digging the idea and change presently. I am concerned though that everything I know and have done with CM and it's WWII combat and tactics is about to be rudely thrown out the window.

[phil stanbridge]

Hi there. I was in much the same boat as you until a year or so ago. I did eventually turn to the dark side but only really since the last patch.

Shock Force is a completely different game in many ways, other than the blindingly obvious. I'm not really qualified to offer you much in the way of advice, all I would say is watch out for ATGM's and RPG's if you play with Blue (or the campaign, as in my case).

You will discover the perils of modern warfare. Enjoy.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Welcome back.

Well, expect spotting to be trickier. No more automatic frontline wide smackdown on an ATG that opens up. Excellent control over very lethal artillery and you better keep moving because the AI is more handy with it now too. Also, you are likely to be more adverse to casualties as bodies now litter the battlefield like so many accusing fingers.

And craptastic QBs.

[Scipio]

Victory conditions are handled very differently.

If you play PBEM, expect larger files. 'Larger' means up 40+ MB in large battles.

QBs are crap.

[MikeyD]

Asking what's different compared to CMx1 is like asking to describe the differences between a 1950s Ford pickup and a 2010 Masaratti Quattroporte. Well, they both have four rubber tires and an engine, but besides that...

[Phantom Captain]

Asking what's different compared to CMx1 is like asking to describe the differences between a 1950s Ford pickup and a 2010 Masaratti Quattroporte. Well, they both have four rubber tires and an engine, but besides that...

Yeah, I guess I kinda figured as much. I suppose what I really wanted were generalities.... Like will I feel intimately familiar with the new system or is going to be strange and completely foreign? I'm guessing my first few experiences will consist of getting the taste smacked out of my mouth as it was with the first CM's. I'm hoping my years of experience with the previous incarnations will lower the learning curve a bit.

Modern combat, equipment, and TO&Es are going to be a whole new realm for me. I'm really excited to start taking the plunge though and start adapting to it.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Unless you edit the .txt, the orders themselves will feel odd, as many of them use different letters, plus there are quite a few different commands.

You will have to get used to the fact that you cannot click destinations exactly where you want a lot of the time, because of the nature of the maps now. If you played CMx1 in height 3 or 4 typically, you will be in height 2 or 3 now.

You will miss the ease of determining LOS, but love the extra targetting options.

Calling arty is wildly different and a big improvement.

Some troops in a squad having LOS and some not takes getting used to.

There are millions of others, but thats a few things you will notice quickly.

Of course, the biggest difference is the absence of Mr. Borg, for which we give thanks.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Oh, yes, that's a good one. Get a custom hotkey.txt. Default is rubbish.

[Jonny(FGM)]

You will miss the ease of determining LOS, but love the extra targetting options.

Actually apart from the units which cannot target (which are quite limited in number) i find determining LOS a lot easier in CMx2 as you can determine it from the destination as well as the start point.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

True enough. It just seemed easier in the original. Not complaining mind you, I'm happy with it.

[AkumaSD]

Anyway, I'm finally gonna take the plunge!

I'm interested in your opinion after you play through the demo.

[hoolaman]

My biggest tip is to fire up a mission in the editor and experiment with deploying infantry squads in different terrain, rideglines, walls, around and inside houses etc. (if you only have the demo you can do the same in the setup zones). The elevation changes and facing of infantry in each square makes them do very different things and this is a good way to learn how to be confident that your waypoints will send your men where you hoped they would go. Checking LOS by selecting and using TARGET on the terminal waypoint will make sure you are in a useful place.

The action spot squares are the basis for the spotting system and the pathing system and sometimes this means there is less resolution placing waypoints and deploying troops compared to CMx1. Buildings too are always one tile, no matter the size. Just be aware of this and don't expect it to be like CMBB where you could place a waypoint with exact precision. Of course the flip side is that the terrain squares and topography in CMSF is a much higher resolution and the squads actually occupy some space instead of existing as a single point.

Other than that, the game is clearly the descendant of CMBO. Learning modern weaponry and tactics will take you some time, don't let the game mechanics get in the way of enjoying a really great tactical game.

The manual is mediocre at best as a technical document, it omits or only briefly mentions (or at worst is completely wrong) some really critical stuff, so be sure to ask or search on the forums for anything you have trouble with. The strategy and tactics forum has a wealth of info.

[Jonny(FGM)]

The action spot squares are the basis for the spotting system and the pathing system and sometimes this means there is less resolution placing waypoints and deploying troops compared to CMx1. Buildings too are always one tile, no matter the size. Just be aware of this

While the 1:1 representation may make the resolution seem less than CMx1, i think it is just explicitly showing what CMx1 abstracted, or at least i think of it that way

The manual is mediocre at best as a technical document, it omits or only briefly mentions (or at worst is completely wrong) some really critical stuff, so be sure to ask or search on the forums for anything you have trouble with. The strategy and tactics forum has a wealth of info.

While it is true that the manual is hardly a comprehensive guide to playing the game it's certainly worth a good read.

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, learn to stop stressing out when one or two of your stray infantrymen wander senselessly out into the middle of the street and get cut down. Pretend it's only a flesh wound and they'll recover quickly.

And definitely check out some of the mods. Scipio's explosions, Mord's faces of Syria and uniform mods by M1A1TC (VladTemplar), Ryujin and others.

Beware of any quarrel, but being in / bear it that the opposed shall beware of thee!

[Battlefront.com]

I guess I should chime in too

Good list of stuff from everybody. I'd say the biggest difference is the overall feel of the game. All technical points aside, and it's obvious roots in CMBO, it does feel like a very different game even from CMAK (i.e. a similar physical environment). A lot of reasons why have been listed, but Relative Spotting, 1:1, higher resolution terrain, and a few other things are probably the big ones. There is, however, the nature of modern warfare and equipment.

My advice on the combat side of things is to take things a LOT slower in CM:SF than in any CMx1 game. Recon is more important, so is not freaking out and over-investing your forces the first time someone takes a pot shot at you. Because the Borg is greatly absent (not completely dead, of course) you may find yourself doing the enemy a favor by showing off where all your positions are without getting much back in return.

Lethality is WAY up. Suppress the enemy as much as you can before doing anything that could get yourself killed. Because you don't you will

Oh, and have greatly different tactics when playing Red vs. playing Blue. It's akin to playing with Conscript Soviets in CMBB vs. high end German forces. If you try to do a bunch of fancy stuff you'll find out that won't work. Lower your expectations, change your tactics accordingly, and you can still beat Blue just like you can beat Germans with the poorest of quality Russian force.

Enjoy!

Steve

[Phantom Captain]

Wow,

Thanks everyone! Great stuff!

Steve, I'll say it feels different!! Strangely familiar and somewhat intuitive, I'm sure because of my experience with the old games, but VERY different at the same time.

Ok, dl'ed the demo, read the manual tonight and went through the first two demos. I'm really really impressed if a bit overwhelmed to say the least. Totally loving it though and feel the new addiction coming on.

First impressions... So much to take in all at once and the real time really puts me at a disadvantage. I feel so disjointed in the way I am moving and trying to overwatch and cover. Maybe I should work in super small jumps and leap frongs but that doesn't really feel natural either. I always seem to feel like I'm trying to keep up with the units already moving and suddenly everything is going on at once. With CMBO, BB and AK the breaks between turns kept things uniform for me, it was that breather to reassess, take stock and build on my next move. Not so in real time. How do you all do it??

I was successful in both the first (simplicity) demo and the second moving into the town to take the three objectives but again I felt so disjointed. I lost one of my 105mm IFVs right off the bat. Have to learn how to move and overwatch etc like in the old CM.

I definitely need to learn the capabilities and effectiveness of the modern units. What they can and can't do and what's baby steps and what is asking too much. Casualty wise I didn't do too bad so I must be doing something right but I really did feel overwhelmed. Where is the fire coming from?? Who's shooting at me?? Then I would focus too much on one unit or two to the neglect of the others. Joint command is going to be very different in real time.

I need to learn to use my Strykers as they are designed. Not sure exactly how that is yet though! Are my IFVs support vehicles or should my infantry support my IFVs?? CMBB and AK definitely showed me the wisdom of recon and I still want to dismount and get the infantry on the prowl before moving any vehicle to uncover ambushes etc.

The commands and combat are pretty self explanatory and in that sense it still feels familiar like the old CM. I do have to get used to having every man represented instead of abstract squads and have to get used to how they deploy.

I like the line of sight but i'm still getting a feel for it, how it works, how cover works etc. It's strange using it on the fly though for sure.

I LOVE the idea that Borg spotting is dead!! Playing the demo in training mode though doesn't show it but I get the idea and do see how it will implement. LOVE IT. Artillery is very new too but seems to just take a little getting used to.

Really I think the biggest obstacles I'm facing right now is learning the TO&Es and their capabilites and how they should be utilized. Half the fun though right?? I'm super super impressed and am really looking forward to getting into it more. I'll buy the CMSF and Marine (can't wait to use US Marines!!) bundle pack in the next few days after I've gone through the demo more. I think it's just going to take some time to get comfortable and familiar and I'm sure things will smooth out.

In a word, awesome.

[hoolaman]

If you aren't loving RT, don't play it! WEGO is still there and as good as ever, aside from a few niggles, everything can be done in WEGO, but WEGO also requires a thorough understanding of how to queue orders.

I play WEGO in all but the smallest engagements. RT neccesitates a birds eye view of the field that isn't very satisfying, or you miss a lot of action, spotting contacts etc. You also miss the ability to replay those awesome near-misses and feats of heroism.

[theFightingSeabee]

Yeah Phantom Captian... you can still play in WEGO!!! I use RT but you may use the Esc button to pause as much as you'd like. Sounds like WEGO is for you.

Use your IFV as support for your infantry. Beware of RPG's and other guided missiles. A single RPG can destroy any tank, so respect them.

Oh, and I think you'll love the Marines. Get a few Marine squads to open up at the same time to see some fireworks!

[Alan8325]

Generally when playing as BLUE against RED, the biggest threat to your IFVs of any type is the RPG. Enemy tanks usually either get to go up against your Abrams tanks or your endless Javelin ATGMs, both of which are really bad news for any tank in the world. RPG effective range is 200-300 meters and as long as you keep your IFVs that distance from likely RPG locations you likely have them in good overwatch positions.

Once you start playing with the Marines you will be capable of much more complex movement options with the squad splitting capabilities of their large squads. Their IFVs though, are about the size of a house and should be kept even further from the enemy.

[c3k]

The learning curve can be steep, but this game is well worth it.

As Alan8325 mentions, above, the lethality of modern ATW's is huge. Keep your vehicles about 300 meters back; use the infantry to clear that zone around them. Area target, by vehicles, into suspected ambush sites.

Your casualties will eventually be reduced as you learn what to do.

[stoex]

Yeah, learning CMSF is a long haul, even for a CMx1 veteran. After a year of playing, I still feel I'm improving my tactics with every battle (not least since I just recently started playing a lot of PBEMs). But as stated before, it's a game worth the effort invested into learning the ropes, as the better you get, the more your successes will make you very proud!

I strongly suggest taking things in small steps to get acquainted with the way CMSF works:

-) Start out by playing only BLUE to learn their strengths and weaknesses (not many of the latter). Find out how to move around and use your assets to max effect. Switch to RED when you have a good feel for BLUE and see how they work, it improves your understanding of how to fight against them as well.

-) Start by playing in WeGo, then switch to RT when you have gotten a bit of a feel. Keeps the initial stress level down, though I find overall RT has undeniable advantages over WeGo.

-) Start with small battles, and don't go for too much combined arms action at first. Learn how to use individual formations and assets before trying to synchronize them.

-) Play battles before you start a campaign. A lot of them, preferably. As a newcomer you may be somewhat successful during the early campaign stages but may well find yourself losing later on because battles become harder and your core forces are depleted. Sucks to find you have wasted a lot of time just to have to start over.

-) Use area fire a lot. Hammer enemy positions with max firepower (if playing BLUE). You need to keep casualties low or you will lose battles despite achieving your terrain objectives and/or eradicating the enemy. Similarly, move slowly and methodically when attacking to avoid getting badly ambushed. Ambushes are what RED is about, it's how the Syrians can achieve victories.

-) Search and read the forums, there is an incredible amount of good info here. If you can't find answers using a forum search, feel free to ask.

Enjoy yourself above all else!

[Barkhorn1x]

-) Start by playing in WeGo, then switch to RT when you have gotten a bit of a feel. Keeps the initial stress level down, though I find overall RT has undeniable advantages over WeGo.

Not to hijack this thread - but - "undeniable advantages"? How so exactly?

[stoex]

For me the advantage of being able to give orders at any time, thereby timing my moves perfectly, outweighs the disadvantage of occasionally missing something due to bad camera placement or watching some other action too closely.

But it's a matter of opinion and play style, surely - what I meant was that for me, I can't deny the advantage that I get from playing RT. Despite my best efforts, I sometimes have the feeling in WeGo that some casualties that I took would not have occurred in RT thanks to closer coordination of units and timing their actions. Other folks may of course see this differently. Maybe should have been more clear about that in my previous post.

Definitely my primary intention was to say that starting on CMSF in WeGo dramatically lowers the stress level for new players and CMx1 vets unfamiliar with the RT system. I think most people will agree with me there, but again - to each his own.

[Barkhorn1x]

Understood. Agreed on less stress w/ WEGO. I tried RT w/ CMSF and found that I was missing too much and could not get ny orders in place fast enough.

To each his own then and I am glad BF gives us a choice.

[Phantom Captain]

More impressions....

stoex, great points there and noted. I'll take your suggestions thanks! Very much what I was figuring.

hoolaman, c3k, theFightingSeabee, Alan8325,and anyone else I missed, I'm listening and processing it all! Thanks for your input.

WEGO!?!! Brilliant. For some reason I was assuming everyone played CMSF in real time and thought I should jump in that way. Fired it up again this morning, before work, and ran through a few turns of the town again in WEGO. Honey, I'm home. Now that's what I'm talking about. I felt much more comfortable and controlled and this felt like my old CM. Now I can see and rerun everything and focus where I need to focus. LOVING THIS too much already. Definitely going to slow down and take things small. One objective and obstacle at a time.

I love how the soldiers move with the terrain instead of actually obeying their orders literally. I ordered a squad to move across an open space and they sidestepped left and hugged a treeline instead. Joy!

Other joyful moments, I ordered a squad to assault a trenchline in front of a building and it was awesome to see them split into fireteams and hit the trench with grenades before going in and clearing. Watching a squad throw grenades through a door before moving into a building. Watching bullets bounce and ricochet off walls in the corner of a courtyard!!!!

WEGO is definitely more my style and comfort zone for now, I'm sticking to it for the time being. It's much too chaotic and I miss too much otherwise. It definitely helps me slow down and take my time to do things right instead of getting spooked and overwhelmed and rushing in or forgetting assets.

More questions now...

Do my HQ units work like old CM? That is, do I need to keep them close to my squads or am I assuming correctly that their range and communication abilities are much greater. I guess I'm asking do I push these guys into combat with their squads or is it better to leave them back?

I do need to learn the parameters of the orders as they aren't as intuitive as the old CM orders. Like assault for instance, it's not just rushing in, guns blazing, but actually leapfrogging slowly concentrating on the objective. Do you all use hunt more or quick or just move? Curious. I soooo love the detail here though. It's super realistic.

Can I order different targets from different waypoints and if so, how? That is if I have a three point waypoint, like hunt, move, hunt, can I change the targeting line from the seperate three points? It seems people say you can but I haven't figured it out yet.

Facing, gotta get into and understand facing. I moved one squad up to a wall surrounding a courtyard and my men remained facing along the wall, the direction they had been moving in, instead of turning and facing to the courtyard. Had a man shot because of it. More learning curve stuff!

I need to go back over the manual too on spotting and line of sight. I believe the dots dim out for a selected unit meaning they don't see the dimmed units correct? How can I tell who is in command radius of who?

Ok, enough for now, I'm at work! LOL. Too many questions?? I hope not, I'm just excited and feel like a kid in a candy store again. And again, I'm really really impressed so far with what I'm learning and experiencing. I should have jumped in long ago! Oh well.

I'm sure there is more but this is just all off the top of my head at the moment. I was turning this all over in my head on my drive to work this morning.