RAMADI (Iraq): Mother of All MOUT Maps

[SoopSandwich]

Little off topic. I may be in the minority but I think all told the Rangers fared fairly well in the Battle of Mogadishu. I know the mission went sideways but Delta and the Rangers fought well and actually completed their objective. I believe between the Rangers and Delta there were 11 KIA but they inflicted heavy losses on the enemy (estimates range from 500 - 1000 killed and over a 1,000 wounded) with the help of the 160th little birds. During that time period the American Public was not used to that kind of battle after a long period of peace. I wonder how that battle would be viewed today after years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan....

I read the book "Joker One" and I am really looking forward to your Ramadi scenarios!

[LongLeftFlank]

Armoured (vs small arms) humvees were a critical element not available in Mogadishu. I thought the total US dead were more like 70 but it's been many years since I read BHD. Also, unlike Ramadi where the insurgent core had military training, the Somalis didn't use anything much in tbe way of tactics (except in hindsight). It was more like a mob with AKs. Could be wrong on that too though.

[LongLeftFlank]

Donovan Campbell himself admits in JOKER ONE that he didn't have a "big picture" view of the battle, although he gives the fullest account of what was happening at the pointy end. Seems like virtually everyone in that fight claims credit for being the ones to actually rescue JOKER 3/1. And if you read closely, it looks like a couple of the Marine squads involved didn't act as decisively as they should have.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

There were 18 or 19 KIA at Mogadishu IIRC. Possibly the 70 figure includes wounded?

[Erwin]

Re Ramadi, I am impressed at the small number of US considering the size of the area.

And I thought that most CMSF scenarios were kinda BS (in order to make a balanced game) since the Blue forces are nearly always so outnumbered.

I can't quite get my mind around what it must have felt like to look around at a few dozen mates and be told to go clear what looks like miles of treacherous city blocks.

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, it really took some brass balls to go out every day in squad-sized groups on foot into a city of 300,000 hostile and well-armed people. The Army guys did do a little "I told ya so" when the Marine "community policing" approach cratered. After April 6, the Marines were a lot more cautious, going out mainly in platoon strength, with guntrucks once these became available.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Compare this with the 1940 conquest and occupation of the Netherlands by Germany.

For the first six month there was only a token occupation force present, yet these German soldiers went out to café's and cinemas completely unarmed.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well, to be fair the stolid burghers of Amsterdam did not each own a compact low-maintenance weapon that could (briefly) put out firepower equivalent to a WWI machine gun.

And ISTR for the first 6 months or so after the fall of Baghdad, Coalition troops were able to go more or less where they wanted in towns (albeit fully armed). That honeymoon rapidly wound down by 2003.

[vincere]

Correct. "No True Glory" by Bing West gives the numbers. These are corroborated by the other sources.

JOKER THREE was pinned down in 3 separated groups -- about 44 Marines all told but by game start they are Weakened or Unfit from exhaustion (90 minutes+ under siege in midday heat) and wounds, and ammo is critical.

(Penny drop moment)- Ah, the No True Glory Ramadi fight. Well that's just intensified my appetite even more.

If I recall there was a squad cut off at one point?

And would you suggest any other sources fro Ramadi?

[LongLeftFlank]

The Shootout: Ramadi A&E episode is available on YouTube, and will amply answer your question on the cut off squads of JOKER THREE. However, be warned: it gets the positions of the trapped squads completely wrong (forgivable, since the QRFs made the same mistake and ended up having to fight 20 blocks to find them).

The other problem with that documentary is that it barely mentions the actions of the relief forces, focusing instead on the ordeal of the besieged Marines.

If you're really interested, also Google up the medal citations of Marine Captain Chris Bronzi, SSgt Conde and Army Sgt Major Riling adding the keyword Ramadi. That also underscores my earlier point about everyone and his dog claiming credit for rescuing the JOKER THREE squads.

Also, the horrible ambush of 2/4 ECHO Company where LT Gary Wrobleski was killed fighting to rescue a squad that got slaughtered in their Humvee by 12.7mm was a separate action, taking place out in the eastern suburbs later in the afternoon. That was the one that yielded most of the US KIA on April 6 2004 and got the attention of the TV cameras. And since the insurgents bugged out pretty quick afterward, it doesn't make for a very interesting CMSF scenario.

[vincere]

Thanks LLF; much appreciated.

If you get short of testers I'll raise my hand; but at this stage bit busy; late on a promised pbem; and more the truth selfishly don't want to spoil the balanced version for my jack self.

[LongLeftFlank]

One more major flaw in the A&E documentary: it looks like they used the same (Jordanian?) streetscape to recreate Ramadi as they did for other urban Shootout episodes set in Iraq.

It's too "commercial", with lots of shopfronts, narrow alleys, doorways and balconies fronting right onto the street, and 3 and 4 story buildings. That does exist in Ramadi -- in the souk (market) district which is part of my larger Ramadi map but isn't on this subsegment (the eastern third). As a battlefield, that's even more lethal since there are endless possible hiding places from which an insurgent could be pointing a weapon at you. The Ramadi souk was an area Marines were extremely wary about entering from 2004-2006, and usually only in platoon+ strength and at night, sticking to the wider streets.

The JOKER THREE forces were ambushed while passing through the Mulaab residential neighborhood, whose drab look-alike streets are, as you can see from the screenshots, lined with gated 8 foot compound walls. Both in RL and in the game, these walls actually protect troops on the narrow streets reasonably well from shooters (though not hand grenades) in the adjacent 2 story houses -- it's defilade that's dangerous (parked cars and various other flotsam is your only cover then).

Also, one game problem I'll never be able to resolve is that in CMSF compounds are too easy to enter from the street -- in reality you had to beat down a gate or blast off the lock, which isn't nearly as easy as it looks on TV. That creates a dangerous delay in RL.

[LongLeftFlank]

Still playtesting. And the reason you may need to revert occasionally in the event of a massacre (i.e. losing 5 guys at a single pop) is.... no matter how well you play, you're going to get a number of these. 2 guys wounded to kill a single sniper. My overwatch prepped the front top of the building but the SOB was in the back, waiting. I probably should have followed doctrine and "flooded" the building with at least 8 Marines.

[LongLeftFlank]

Gives me an excuse to show off my water tower, too. Nifty, eh?

[Boche]

wow thats some clever building right there! jaja

PS: i never really trust TV documentaries to be honest, the ussually get a couple or allot of things wrong, but atleast they are entertaining to watch to get some sort of a picture of what happened

[Romm]

very very good job on the scenario!

[Erwin]

WW2 documentaries have become a joke. The producers can't seem to tell the difference between a PzII or any other tank, a Tiger vs a PzIV and sometimes get Allied and Axis tanks mixed up.

Given there are groups like ours, you'd think just a little research effort...

Sample questions basd on "facts" from recent docs I saw:

1) What is the largest tank battle of WW2?

2) When did Rommel first encounter Allied Grants?

3) Typical Panzer type during Normandy?

4) The turning point of WW2?

Answers from Mil Channel docs:

1) The Bulge

2) During Rommel's January 1942 attack

3) King Tigers

4) El Alamein (well I suppose arguably maybe).

[LongLeftFlank]

Agree about shoddy history on TV. That's why I don't watch it -- bloody waste of time.

Alamein is nowhere close to being a contender for (4), IMHO, unless you are Viscount Montgomery's biographer. Even if the Germans had stuffed the Alamein attack at Halfaya and turned it into another Operation Crusader, the Axis forces didn't have the umph to destroy the British army and occupy Egypt by then. By late 1942, the Yanks were coming, the Arsenal of Democracy was already bolstering the British armoured, artillery and air forces, and there was now no prospect of forcing Britain to quit the war no matter what local miracles Rommel might pull off with his limited forces.

Stalingrad/Operation Uranus and Pearl Harbour are the only possible answers. Choosing one of these over the other would be tricky. But let's please not pursue that in this thread.

[heer witmann]

im chomping at the bit to play this bad boy

[futon river crossing]

This may keep me playing CMSF after CMBNs release - can't wait to play this one - well done!

[LongLeftFlank]

1:00. "

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[kipanderson]

LongLeftHook, hi,

That is stunning.....

I do have some idea how long it must have taken.... truly great work....

Congratulations... .

All the best,

Kip.

[Sixxkiller]

Yes you have been noticed behind the scenes too. Fantastic

[LongLeftFlank]

This beauty is getting pretty close to ready. VERY non-linear too -- no "right" way to win.

I just love the immersive feel of all that ambient smoke from the explosions - I wish it would last longer and cast a hazy pall over the firefight for at least several minutes.

[theFightingSeabee]

Well I can't wait to go through this! Your work is being highly praised on the inner board. Beautiful work, LLF!