RAMADI (Iraq): Mother of All MOUT Maps

[Erwin]

Thanks LLF. Those are very useful hints.

As I always use covered arcs I have never used the FACE command to enhance the effects of cover (or for any reason actually). I didn't realize that the FACE command had real value.

I also hadn't noticed the differences between the "pointed wall" feature and an entryway. They looked equally as bad to me. It was also a surprise to realize that whether the troops are facing the "stub" or "angle" also makes a difference.

This is a prime example of how knowing/understanding the CMSF game system, and how the AI treats positioning and facing, makes a huge difference in one's ability to play well.

It's why I think it's important to have a useful manual that explains some of this - esp for noobies, but even for players like me (who think they are experienced). Just as with CM1 there is always something new to learn...

Just having to learn to play without covered arcs is a strange feeling.

Am looking forwards to playing the updated version.

[abneo3sierra]

Alright, got a late start, but playing some now with this..just want to share an initial reaction.

The map is as stated many places above, phenomenal. Luck also plays a large part. I survived my first couple of (very intense) minutes with only 1 minor injury (the yellow coded players) despite the feeling for a moment that the entire city was attacking a'la Mogadishu. To be realistic, I also intend to follow Erwin's method of providing aid to wounded. I will let you know more later as I wrap it up, but all I can say now is WOW..helluva job LLF.

[dan/california]

I got some real time in with it yesterday and allow me to state that LLF is giving excellent advice above, in all particulars. When you go to the roof tops all #$%^& T%^&*** breaks loose and you cant possibly suppress all the bad guys in time.

The thing about staying in the street really works as well. You have to kind of retrain yourself from playing heavier forces on more open maps, where streets are suicide. It is really kind of a large mental shift. While the marines are under armed compared to most CMSF scenarios, so are the bad guys. It just requires a very different approach.

The map is amazing, and the whole thing is nail biting fun.

[dan/california]

If there was a couple of platoons of Syrian Special forces level bad people in there with heavy weapons you would have to level whole blocks to even attempt it.

[LongLeftFlank]

The thing about staying in the street really works as well. You have to kind of retrain yourself from playing heavier forces on more open maps, where streets are suicide. It is really kind of a large mental shift. While the marines are under armed compared to most CMSF scenarios, so are the bad guys. It just requires a very different approach.

Thanks for the kind words, guys, and for your hard work. Here is what I've been up to:

(1) I've rewritten the briefing to highlight the "must know" items and make it clearer what your forces are and when they arrive.

(2) "adjusted" a couple of the items that allowed BlackMoria to get through the entire thing with one casualty, although kudos to him -- he played it "right" (except for that early cross-map Humvee rush which he probably won't get away with again now. "Kekekeke!"), especially by hammering the counterattacks in the teeth head on and HARD. Oorah! Chesty would be proud!

(3) Added a "trigger" that denies you a Victory if you Cease Fire before a certain time, but also allows you to Cease Fire (and win) any time after that if you like.... the insurgents are basically withdrawing to fight another day, which is what they did historically. The rules are explained in the briefing.

For those who would like to build a similar condition into their own scenarios, the workaround is as follows: I give RED 30 bonus points to start (the same number BLUE gets if he keeps his casualties below a certain %, so a Victory would become a Draw, and a Draw a Defeat). At a certain time, a BLUE reinforcement (a Company HQ that plays no other role in the game) appears on top of a small Victory Location that awards 30 points for Touching it. So now the 30 RED bonus points are offset. The reinforcement message reads: YOU MAY CEASE FIRE AT ANY TIME YOU WISH

If anyone would like to test the "updated" version let me know.

[Erwin]

That's what my life is on hold for... Thanx!

[BlackMoria]

I'm up for trying out the new version, LLF. Email to the same address as before.

[LongLeftFlank]

If there was a couple of platoons of Syrian Special forces level bad people in there with heavy weapons you would have to level whole blocks to even attempt it.

And that would be Stalingrad. Or Aachen. Or Hue. Or Fallujah.

[snake_eye]

Hi LLF,

I would be very happy, from what I read, to try, test and report, your Ramadi Mout fighting. Having read about the tactics used during the Fallujah battles, however a bit less for the Ramadi’s, it could be challenging to have these known, tactical squads movements applied among your map, huge streets labyrinth; If you agree, send me a mail.

Thanks again for having done such a map that will stay as a monument dedicated to that area numerous fights.

Cheers

[LongLeftFlank]

I greatly appreciate the offer of help, but I'm trying to get this scenario finished and out to the masses by next weekend. I will be interested in hearing how your tactics work however, at any time.

I presently have 8 folks playtesting, and Black Moria and Erwin have given me AARs so far. So whenever I can get some feedback from the others, I can move forward with finalizing.

One thing I'm curious about: did anyone besides Moria try going in from 2 (or more directions)? Breaching the enemy defensive crust at 2 points in 45-60 minutes with smaller forces is intended to be very hard to do (though not impossible). Want to make sure that's true.

CLARIFICATION: ... As distinct from "1 direction" -- i.e. pushing Kennedy's force (MAP-3 now renamed "MOBILE 3") along Route Michigan to link up with JOKER ONE at or near Easy Street before pushing a single "fist" into the Mulaab for the actual rescue. Kind of like in my sample bitmap:

[Erwin]

"try going in from 2 (or more directions)? "

You mean in addition to the east and the west edge advances?

[abneo3sierra]

I greatly appreciate the offer of help, but I'm trying to get this scenario finished and out to the masses by next weekend. I will be interested in hearing how your tactics work however, at any time.

I presently have 8 folks playtesting, and Black Moria and Erwin have given me AARs so far. So whenever I can get some feedback from the others, I can move forward with finalizing.

One thing I'm curious about: did anyone besides Moria try going in from 2 (or more directions)? Breaching the enemy defensive crust at 2 points in 45-60 minutes with smaller forces is intended to be very hard to do (though not impossible). Want to make sure that's true.

Long story short, with AAR coming when I get a chance to get home and put it together.. I did it from 1 primary direction, though I looked at all options. The opfor is well put together, they get in their shots, don't really have staying power, but then, don't need too much as a few hits is enough to give them what they need. There really was nothing that I saw in the scenario that I would say needs changing. Loved it!

Ron

[snake_eye]

I greatly appreciate the offer of help, but I'm trying to get this scenario finished and out to the masses by next weekend. I will be interested in hearing how your tactics work however, at any time.

I presently have 8 folks playtesting, and Black Moria and Erwin have given me AARs so far. So whenever I can get some feedback from the others, I can move forward with finalizing.

One thing I'm curious about: did anyone besides Moria try going in from 2 (or more directions)? Breaching the enemy defensive crust at 2 points in 45-60 minutes with smaller forces is intended to be very hard to do (though not impossible). Want to make sure that's true.

Thanks LLF. As soon as you put it on the repertory, I shall try to apply to CMSF these tactical lessons of Urban fighting well proven over the past wars. However, these days, the only huge difference being in the improved communications at squad level giving, not all the times, but rather more often than never, a sound situation awareness to the SQL (not to speak about the small, 5.1 pounds Dragon Eye, platoon and sometimes squad used UAV, out of the scope of CMSF) and in the high cyclic rate of fire of the weapons. That rate of fire, being pretty handy to saturate and or trigger response of enemy likely hide out during, a move using the recon by fire movement.

Will let you know of the ending.

Cheers

[LongLeftFlank]

Long story short, with AAR coming when I get a chance to get home and put it together.. I did it from 1 primary direction, though I looked at all options. The opfor is well put together, they get in their shots, don't really have staying power, but then, don't need too much as a few hits is enough to give them what they need. There really was nothing that I saw in the scenario that I would say needs changing. Loved it!

Ron

Fantastic! Since you've done street time over there (and thank you for your selfless service to our civilization!!!), be very interested in your frank and honest opinions on the realism (within the limits of CMSF/wargaming, obviously).

Any number of talented people have put together fun and challenging CMSF "games" -- I am trying to create an experience that reflects and rewards ~real life MOUT infantry tactics.

[snake_eye]

The hardest challenge for me was advancing up streets where you couldn't dart into buildings and find covered routes and better positions to fire from (because the buildings do not have doors to each other, and high walls stop one moving from building to building). You HAVE to use the roads. This is what makes this scenario very unique as I had never encountered that in other scenarios.

.

It looks like LLF has perfectly retained the lessons of Fallujah where houses (in the areas the fighters wanted the fight to take place) had their doors locked and windows cemented to prevent squads infiltration from houses to houses, funnelling that way the squads in killing zones and some booby trap houses left open.

You guys went through a nasty street fight.

[LongLeftFlank]

No, on the contrary, the compounds are too easy to enter -- there aren't any compound gates or locked house doors (with bars). I had to choose one or the other.

[snake_eye]

No, on the contrary, the compounds are too easy to enter -- there aren't any compound gates or locked house doors (with bars). I had to choose one or the other.

I came to that, looking at the shot you posted. It looks from it, that if you get into a house and or its surrounding, besides the entrance, you have tall walls all around. You are going nowhere

So, if you want to move forward, besides having engineers to blast walls, between houses, you have to stick to the street to move forward don’t you ?

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, although you can occasionally move rooftop to rooftop or backyard to backyard. Not regularly though.

[abneo3sierra]

As the US force, you essentially have to take what you are given, and push forward, even if you find yourself in deep %^&*, you have to keep pushing forward, keep firing. Laying down enough covering fire can help, as even if you don't kill any of the Tangos, if you can keep their heads down it lets you move. I like that the mission is not dependent really on killing anyone...this is closer to our ROE there. Accomplish the mission, save your own guys, and only kill what is necessary to meet those two requirements. Therefore, for most of my mission, I did not use "aimed" fire very much, instead sporadic covering fire on overhead positions. If my guys picked up scent of a tango, every gun able, including those who could not see it, fired a few bursts in the general vicinity to keep their heads down, while speeding through as much as possible.

Ron

[Jingo]

Excellent work LLF! I just discovered this thread after starting to play CMSF after a longish hiatus. Your dedication to this project is amazing! Keep it up!

After reading this entire thread, I searched some of the Ramadi info available on the internet and saw the Battle Cry: Ramadi documentary on youtube. Amazing. I had never even heard of the action in Ramadi other than the cursory headline or two a few years back. I'm continually amazed at the bravery and sacrifice our soldiers make. Many thanks to all of you who have served on our nation's behalf!

Anyway, I was curious about ammo levels. It sounds like from the documentary that they were fighting for several hours and they eventually scavenged ammo off of downed comrades. In real life, how many rounds did the individual marines in Joker squads carry? I was amazed that in such sustained fighting fighting for several hours that they had any rounds left at all after the first hour or so.

In the scenario, are there any chances for resupply at all?

[LongLeftFlank]

Much respect to those who served at the sharp end in Fallujah, but it was over in a week. In contrast one elite Marine and Army battalion after another had to stick it out in Ramadi for 6-9 months at a stretch, no break. It wasn't all April 6 granted but it was a daily grind of death.

[BlackMoria]

<snip>

Anyway, I was curious about ammo levels. It sounds like from the documentary that they were fighting for several hours and they eventually scavenged ammo off of downed comrades. In real life, how many rounds did the individual marines in Joker squads carry? I was amazed that in such sustained fighting fighting for several hours that they had any rounds left at all after the first hour or so.

In the scenario, are there any chances for resupply at all?

The only resupply is from the 10 Humvees that either start or come on map (which have 5.56mm ammo and 7.62mm ammo). Not much but it is enough, as long as you focus on the mission (find the Joker 3 callsigns) and not on trying to kill every insurgent you come across.

[bodkin]

Is this scenario designed and tested in WEGO or RT? I don't think CMSF was ever really designed for detailed MOUT combat as the dominant part of the game, this is highlighted even more when playing WEGO in MOUT heavy scenarios.

[LongLeftFlank]

Can't speak to BFC's design intent, but I find it quite suitable for representing MOUT so long as you take care in the design of the scenario. If you have 300 fanatical and hashed-up jihadis who have fortified and mined a square km of downtown Fallujah, you cant expect BLUE to cross the map in an hour. You'll be lucky if you've cleared 2 strongpoints in 2 hours and JDAMed a couple of others. Very systematic.

JOKER THREE has been tested in both RT and WeGo, but it will not accommodate all playing styles. If you never like to hit Pause or never go below level 5 on the map, I wouldn't bother with this scenario. You might still break through with brute force but your losses will be more Stalingrad than modern and the media will give you a nickname involving the word "Butcher" or "Chainsaw". I have no intention of accommodating such behaviour any more than I'd let you terror bomb Ramadi into submission. I know that isn't what you were suggesting, but there may be a lot of players who find this scenario frustrating since it doesn't reward tactics that have worked for them elsewhere, or just takes too long to play. Just admire my pretty map in that case and walk away. Or use the map to create a macabre update of the bloodbath SL scenario "Counterstroke at Stonne" (with Leopards and T90s stalking each other in the streets of Damascus at point blank). No offense taken.

[dan/california]

Obviously their are engine tweaks and terrain details that would make make the simulation better. But LLF has created a tour-de-force in how CMSF can be pushed to its limits. It is both fascinating to play and seems to give results in accordance with the historical record. You really can't ask for much more. Well except for BFC to give him a job maybe?