Yet another beautifull CMSF-moment

[tagge]

From a ongoing PBEM-game. Turn 10. The Syrian engineers have blasted a hole in the prisonwall and the "prisoners", a recon squad, are starting to escape. However my lone 2IC hiding in the trench leaps into action and a cool firefight begins...

[Thomm]

Excellent!

I did not expect the Syrians to fight back after so many of them just slipped through.

The same scene from the Syrians' view would be interesting to understand when the Blue soldier was spotted.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Wiggum]

Wow, good firefight !

I had such a "beautifull CMSF-moment" a few days ago:

I had two syrian squads in two buildings at the second floor.

A enemy T-72 came across and stoped infront of the buildings (distance = 50m)

I gave the order to attack to both squads and the first shot hit the tank...

Then the tank turned his turret into the direction of my men.

Second RPG hit...now the T-72 elevate his gun that is now pointing right to my guys at the second floor.

But before he shot another RPG hits the tank and the crew bails out....WOW.

[souldierz]

Cool,

That 1 soldier might of had a chance to get outta there but those Syrian's kept coming and coming.He was against all odds and was a Brave man for standing his ground, very brave.

Just recently i had the same situation happen to me that Wiggum described, but opposite teams.I had 1 Syrian RPG team in a trench and another in a house.The Abrams was about 10-20 meters from both RPG teams,the house was at the tanks 11oclock position and the trench team at his 3oclock position.There was only 1 man in the RPG team in the trench, the other was WIA.

The RPG team in the house shot a rocket at the Abrams hitting its front corner, the Abrams turns the turret and the body around now facing the house and was about to blow it away.The 1 guy with the RPG in the trench then shot his RPG nailing the tank in the side and getting the tanks attention right away.The tank turns the turret quickly, pointing it at the man in the trench.The Abrams was so close it almost looked like he was gonna shoot the RPG soldier at point blank.I cringed as the Syrian was looking down the barrel of the Abrams and thought to myself oh no this is gonna be nasty and there goes my RPG guy.A couple of tense seconds went by in this stare down, then all of a sudden the Abrams crew started bailing out.I couldn't believe it and was relieved when i thought my RPG guy was sparred.My RPG teams start to unload AK rounds at the tank crew as they bailed and it looked like the 1 RPG guy in the trench was going to throw a grenade,but the second one of the crew members boots hit the ground,he turned and shot my 1 RPG guy in the head with the 1 and only burst from his rifle and then got his crew to safety evading AK rounds without firing another shot.All this at extremely close range.

[Lampshade111]

Just earlier I observed a Challenger 2 survive well over a dozen hits to the front from multiple upgraded T-72s at a range of some 400 meters. For awhile there was nothing but a cloud of smoke and dust where the Challenger was. Everything but the 120mm gun, coax, and .50 was broke. For awhile the battle raged around that tank as the T-72s became focused on engaging my other Challengers. Yet the crew, no doubt in a stunned state and thanking God for being alive, got focused enough to spot and engage another target. They put an APDS round right through one of the final T-72s my forces were dealing with. Without the help of any of those fancy IR optics, and fire control systems.

[Homo ferricus]

Just earlier I observed a Challenger 2 survive well over a dozen hits to the front from multiple upgraded T-72s at a range of some 400 meters. For awhile there was nothing but a cloud of smoke and dust where the Challenger was. Everything but the 120mm gun, coax, and .50 was broke. For awhile the battle raged around that tank as the T-72s became focused on engaging my other Challengers. Yet the crew, no doubt in a stunned state and thanking God for being alive, got focused enough to spot and engage another target. They put an APDS round right through one of the final T-72s my forces were dealing with. Without the help of any of those fancy IR optics, and fire control systems.

That reminds me of a strange incident I had with an Abrams. I believe it was on Allah's Fist, and I had a recent build of the game (maybe 1.08 or something).

In any case, long story short--I had an Abrams on top of a hill, that when cresting said hill, instantly spotted almost a dozen t-62s and t-72s, 200-300 meters away. This Abrams took (if i remember right) about 30 hits of main cannon rounds to its front, not including the 15 or so ricochets. This thing was so f**ked up that when I had the camera near it, I couldn't even hear the engine running. Crew had a casualty (red marker) and an injury (yellow marker). I can't even remember all the devices that were busted, but the sights, FCS, thermals, optics, targeting etc. were all FUBAR.

BUT, somehow, with its tracks and engine shot out, as well as virtually all means it has of spotting and engaging the enemy, with one dead crew member and another wounded--while being the center of attention to the 10 or so enemy tanks and receiving consistent pounding, this Abrams was able to systematically knock out each Syrian tank, almost as if they weren't kicking the Abrams' ass.

I thought that was strange.

[Lethaface]

That was Arnold T2 in that Abrams. Didn't you know about the conspiracies?

[Sivodsi]

... They put an APDS round right through one of the final T-72s my forces were dealing with. Without the help of any of those fancy IR optics, and fire control systems.

Yeah, I've had a scimitar damaged in the same way, and yet still able to put several rounds accurately onto a taxi 4-500m away.

Out of curiousity, has anybody noticed any degradation of accuracy after targeting equipment got damaged?

[Wengart]

I've not noticed an accuracy degradation with damaged optics, but most definitely a spotting degradation. (Although I usually play Syrians so their aim isn't so great to begin with, and they rarely have *just* their spotting equipment damaged )

[Bolteg]

It's a pity I can't use Fraps with normal framerate to film an epic minute from my multiplayer battle on "Around the block" scenario, when my little brave insurgents destroyed two Bradleys (both with ERA blocks) with three RPG shots in just one minute!

I was celebrating like.. I don't know, like it was something special (and it was )

[Dietrich]

They put an APDS round right through one of the final T-72s my forces were dealing with. Without the help of any of those fancy IR optics, and fire control systems.

Was that particular T-72 stationary at the time?

[hoolaman]

The other thing I discovered is that the system has to be BIG red X to be actually destroyed.

[tyrspawn]

That reminds me of a strange incident I had with an Abrams. I believe it was on Allah's Fist, and I had a recent build of the game (maybe 1.08 or something).

In any case, long story short--I had an Abrams on top of a hill, that when cresting said hill, instantly spotted almost a dozen t-62s and t-72s, 200-300 meters away. This Abrams took (if i remember right) about 30 hits of main cannon rounds to its front, not including the 15 or so ricochets. This thing was so f**ked up that when I had the camera near it, I couldn't even hear the engine running. Crew had a casualty (red marker) and an injury (yellow marker). I can't even remember all the devices that were busted, but the sights, FCS, thermals, optics, targeting etc. were all FUBAR.

BUT, somehow, with its tracks and engine shot out, as well as virtually all means it has of spotting and engaging the enemy, with one dead crew member and another wounded--while being the center of attention to the 10 or so enemy tanks and receiving consistent pounding, this Abrams was able to systematically knock out each Syrian tank, almost as if they weren't kicking the Abrams' ass.

I thought that was strange.

Not so strange, the Abrams is an amazing tank and is virtually immune to T-62 and T-72 fire. It's also designed for maximum crew survivability, including automatic halon fire suppression systems and reinforced blast doors to house ammunition. In the event of a penetration, there is only a small chance the magazine will also be penetrated. BTW thats a horribly designed mission, I had the exact same thing happen when I played.

[Homo ferricus]

Not so strange, the Abrams is an amazing tank and is virtually immune to T-62 and T-72 fire.

Yeah, but after 50 some-odd shots to the same part of armor? From 200-300 meters away no less. I'd like to see a real-life test of that.

As for crew survivability--it's great and all but it still seems to me nothing short of miraculous that a crew in what had become essentially a blacked-out tank (in all definitions of the word), taking a shell every couple seconds, sometimes multiple hits simultaneously, with one crew member incapacitated and another wounded, would be able to effectively return fire and wipe out damn near a whole friggin' tank battalion.

[tyrspawn]

Yeah, but after 50 some-odd shots to the same part of armor? From 200-300 meters away no less. I'd like to see a real-life test of that.

As for crew survivability--it's great and all but it still seems to me nothing short of miraculous that a crew in what had become essentially a blacked-out tank (in all definitions of the word), taking a shell every couple seconds, sometimes multiple hits simultaneously, with one crew member incapacitated and another wounded, would be able to effectively return fire and wipe out damn near a whole friggin' tank battalion.

Well your tank didn't come out of it unscathed obviously - most of its systems were disabled, that's essentially what would happen in real life. If you hit a tank with enough ordnance it will eventually be worn down, but as you saw, there were no catastrophic penetrations. This is only possible against T-72s versus side and rear armor, but the abrams could still take quite a few shots at least to the sides and survive. You should read M1 Abrams vs T-72, Duel Series, Steven Zaloga. During the Iraq War I comparably small numbers of Abrams tanks destroyed thousands of T-72 tanks with only one confirmed vehicle destroyed from ENEMY fire (the most lopsided victory was Medina ridge, an absolute slaughter). There were a handful of abrams destroyed, but the others were from friendly fire.

[Homo ferricus]

Well your tank didn't come out of it unscathed obviously - most of its systems were disabled, that's essentially what would happen in real life. If you hit a tank with enough ordnance it will eventually be worn down, but as you saw, there were no catastrophic penetrations. This is only possible against T-72s versus side and rear armor, but the abrams could still take quite a few shots at least to the sides and survive. You should read M1 Abrams vs T-72, Duel Series, Steven Zaloga. During the Iraq War I comparably small numbers of Abrams tanks destroyed thousands of T-72 tanks with only one confirmed vehicle destroyed from ENEMY fire (the most lopsided victory was Medina ridge, an absolute slaughter). There were a handful of abrams destroyed, but the others were from friendly fire.

Oh yes, I assure you I know enough about the Gulf war and Medina Ridge etc. etc. In fact I don't believe I ever contested that the crew should have been killed or a catastrophic penetration should have occurred. In my last post, I tried to emphasize that the fantastical issue (for me) in the situation was that a crew sitting in the tight confines of a tank that is totally blacked-out, with a couple of their comrades bleeding all over them, one not responsive, were able to systematically return fire and destroy each and every last enemy tank, one-by-one. The first question is, how on earth could they do that if all the tank's sighting systems are catastrophically damaged? And I mean everything--optics, targeting, FCS, thermals, and so on. Acquiring targets should have been impossible, especially considering the way the tanks suspension constantly rocked back and forth with the impact of incoming rounds. And the second question, how could the crew (I believe it was veteran) possibly have the composure to act like they did, let alone destroyed sighting systems and all.

From what I've heard IRL, Abrams crews are much more likely to bail out or abandon a tank far before damage as catastrophic as this occurs. But then again, bailing out may have been suicidal... In which case, I could understand staying in the tank and freaking out and doing a whoooole lotta talking to god, but the way the crew prevailed and destroyed the enemy in this scenario seemed a bit off.

[Vark]

Take care using Medina Ridge or Desert Storm as an example of the uberness of the M1. When the US army looked at the engagement afterwards in detail (they built a computer simulation as an instructional device) they found quite a few of the Iraqi tanks had been sans batteries, as the crews had removed them to use as a power source for their lights in the bunkers. Bunkers, where the crews were confined, most of the day, due to the air attacks and foul weather, which meant their tanks lacked basic maintenance, were not correctly bore sited etc and were next to useless. Finally, the AP ammo they used was often a home-grown steel penetrator which lacked accuracy or penetration.

[Battlefront.com]

That and a fair number of the Iraqi crews either weren't in their vehicles or vacated them without firing.

Steve

[Vark]

Yup, doing the sensible thing, hunkering down with their mess tins full of tomatos and onions whilst the sturm and drang raged overhead. Oh and because the F-111's were tank plinking at night, alot of the AFV's had not run their engines up for days, fearing to do so would leave a nice big thermal footprint, so the crews abandoned their vehicles and lived underground.

[MikeyD]

About the überness of the Abrams, remember anything can be penetrated by a side shot. And we're definitely going to have to practice-up on flanking maneuvers for the day when its our Shermans fighting their Panthers.

One thing I did notice with a Abrams for the first time just last night - I mentioned this in another post. A Marine Abrams roof jammer actually worked! Screwed-up an incoming AT-5 missile's flight path! Surprised the hell out of me. Its not often the right kind of missile gets fired at an Abrams for the jammer to work. Kornet is immune to the jammer and the RPGs are all unguided.

[Ryujin]

Oh yes, I assure you I know enough about the Gulf war and Medina Ridge etc. etc. In fact I don't believe I ever contested that the crew should have been killed or a catastrophic penetration should have occurred. In my last post, I tried to emphasize that the fantastical issue (for me) in the situation was that a crew sitting in the tight confines of a tank that is totally blacked-out, with a couple of their comrades bleeding all over them, one not responsive, were able to systematically return fire and destroy each and every last enemy tank, one-by-one. The first question is, how on earth could they do that if all the tank's sighting systems are catastrophically damaged? And I mean everything--optics, targeting, FCS, thermals, and so on. Acquiring targets should have been impossible, especially considering the way the tanks suspension constantly rocked back and forth with the impact of incoming rounds. And the second question, how could the crew (I believe it was veteran) possibly have the composure to act like they did, let alone destroyed sighting systems and all.

From what I've heard IRL, Abrams crews are much more likely to bail out or abandon a tank far before damage as catastrophic as this occurs. But then again, bailing out may have been suicidal... In which case, I could understand staying in the tank and freaking out and doing a whoooole lotta talking to god, but the way the crew prevailed and destroyed the enemy in this scenario seemed a bit off.

"Crew psychology" is certainly a bit of a fuzzy area both in game and reality, I've seen plenty of my crews bail out of only moderatly damaged vehicles into certain small arms death and such. Some times a lone guy on a HMMWV gun mows down some 30 guys under insane fire.

As far as the technical aspect, the auxiliary sights were probably still up and the turret can be hand cranked. I also don't think the 60+ ton M1 would be rocking around when hit, CMSF vastly exagerates the rocking from hits/firing on the MBTs.

So if the crew were up to it, I think the tank could pull it off.

[MikeyD]

I've never seen Abrams optics go completely down. T72 doesn't appear to have a backup coaxial telescopic sight but the M1V certainly has a wide enough selection of optic cluttering the roof. And the commander can control the gun too.

About crew bail psychology, I reminded of the (perhap apocryphal) tale of how Kubinka got its mint-condition Merkava. A Merkava was (one supposes) on patrol in Lebanon. A Syrian Gazelle helicopter appeared on the horizon, the tank crew took fright and simply ran off. Syria recovered the tank. It then passed into (then) Soviet hands.

[John Kettler]

Modern hypervelocity tank rounds, given center of mass lay, with the tube parallel to the ground, ought to be able to secure a hit on a tank size target out to 1000 meters. Of course, this presumes there IS a way to aim the gun and that elevation and traverse still work properly. As for impact forces, think of the kinetic energy of a Greyhound bus doing 45 km/hr hitting an area 40 mm in diameter. That's an old figure from a Cold War era book on tank killing. Believe it was Simpkin's Antitank. KE could be significantly higher given all the developments since 1985.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ryujin]

I was under the impression that a lot of the energy was released through heat and deformation of the penatrator/armor. Not to mention the force imparted on the KE round should be roughly the same as the force imparted on the gun via recoil. While yes, the KE round focuses that force into an much, much smaller area, I'd think that overall the tank shouldn't be rocked that differently from firing the main gun.

[Vark]

Now if I was in Mossad, I would have had a special monkey model Merkava created and given strict instructions for the crew to abandon it. Didn't the British get hold of a T-80U or T-90 by setting up a bogus shipping company, with the Russians realising too late their mistake!

As for Shermans versus Panthers the merits of relative spotting will come into their own during those engagements, no more telepathic infantry support saving the buttoned tanks. Bocage, relative spotting and tank hunter teams, sweaty palms dead ahead in 2010.