A different CMx2 "problem"

[c3k]

The following is part of a previous post:

Oh good lord no CM:SF 2 will be started in a few months. Because so much has been done for the modern and temperate settings already the timeline for release will be about one year. Hopefully even less.

Steve

Well, THAT'S a major bone! CM:SF2 out by the holidays next year. Woot. I only have another year left to totally conquer/defend Syria. Must get cracking...

Thanks for the update.

Ken

[MeatEtr]

MeatEtr,

Oh good lord no CM:SF 2 will be started in a few months. Because so much has been done for the modern and temperate settings already the timeline for release will be about one year. Hopefully even less. CM:SF 2 development will be in parallel to WW2 development. We just have to work out a few more kinks in the 3rd Party tools to make that happen. That's my job for next week.

Steve

Wow, I figured you guys would be pretty busy with CMN+Modules and CMx2 EastFront+modules. But CMSF2 will be a total engine rewrite correct? So even though if you guys start work on it soon, wouldn't it take at least 2-3 years until release? At least judging from the CMx1-CMx2 transition, IIRC that was like 3-4 yrs.

So how will this workload get spread out anyway? We know you got a Russian crew on CM:Afghanistan and the fellas that did Brits are now on NATO. Is there another team you got up your sleeves? I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to know exactly what the core BF dudes are working on.

If you guys need an extra hand, I can be the janitor.

[Sergei]

Well, THAT'S a major bone! CM:SF2 out by the holidays next year. Woot. I only have another year left to totally conquer/defend Syria. Must get cracking...

If the work on CMSF2 is to start in a few months (let's say, February) and then it'll take one year, you won't be seeing it next year, you will be seeing it in 2011. And then you have only one year, with maybe one module popping out, before the world ends.

[Sergei]

Wow, I figured you guys would be pretty busy with CMN+Modules and CMx2 EastFront+modules. But CMSF2 will be a total engine rewrite correct? So even though if you guys start work on it soon, wouldn't it take at least 2-3 years until release? At least judging from the CMx1-CMx2 transition, IIRC that was like 3-4 yrs.

No, because the time between CMx1 and x2 was so long precisely because of the desire not to have to craft a new engine from ground up every few years. CMx1 was monolithic in design, meaning that eventually in the development you met with diminishing returns. You spend one day to change something, then you spend one month to fix everything that that change broke. CMx2 is more modular by design, meaning that parts can be rewritten or added without having to reinvent the wheel. Over time the spokes, the rim and the axis might all change, but the wheel remains. Or would you prefer a car analogy?

[Paper Tiger]

Well, think about it like this. The Temperate environment with water, weather and fire are pretty substantial additions to the CMx2 engine, not to mention the new QB ssytem. However, once they've been successfully coded in and everything's looking lovely, what else is needed for CMSFx2? Apart from some new Europen modern era building textures and some new kit for all the concerned parties, it'll only be creating and playtesting the scenarios and campaigns that come with the new title. (That admittedly does take quite a bit of time) I don't have any problems envisaging a late 2010 release date.

[Nicdain]

Oh good lord no CM:SF 2 will be started in a few months

If the kick off is so imminent, I suppose that you guys at BF.C have a fairly good idea of the geographic setting of this new modern-era CM title...

Any hint on it?

[Thomm]

... what else is needed for CMSFx2?

They could decide to go with smaller tiles ... 4x4, e.g.

This would have major implications on team placement logic, I'd presume.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Blackcat]

I hope we will see CMSF 2 Retro: NATO versus the Sovs in the 1970/80s. That was my era and I would love to game it with the CM::SF engine. Would I, as a Brit infantryman, had a chance of survival I always secretly suspected I wouldn't. Could NATO forces have held the line? I doubt it, but who knows.

Charlie Gs and Chieftains against T62s; the original LAWS against BMP1s, 7.62 SLR's as the standard infantry rifle and so on and so forth. Great fun.

Of course, some of the British equipment in use then is still in service and appears in CMSF (e.g. Scimitars, GPMGs and FV432s).

[SSG Grymm]

I hope we will see CMSF 2 Retro: NATO versus the Sovs in the 1970/80s. That was my era and I would love to game it with the CM::SF engine. Would I, as a Brit infantryman, had a chance of survival I always secretly suspected I wouldn't. Could NATO forces have held the line? I doubt it, but who knows.

Charlie Gs and Chieftains against T62s; the original LAWS against BMP1s, 7.62 SLR's as the standard infantry rifle and so on and so forth. Great fun.

Of course, some of the British equipment in use then is still in service and appears in CMSF (e.g. Scimitars, GPMGs and FV432s).

I was a private back in those days. I think they told us our life expectency(sp) in the Fulda Gap was 7 seconds. I never looked forward to the days of M-113 with a M2 vs a BMP's 73mm.

But maybe game wise it would be different, LOL.

[daisy]

The setting for the new title ? Hmmm..

Personal favourite would have to be :confused::confused:

Lets assume Blue to be USA/NATO or am i missing something ?

So who's Red ? - USSR, Russia, China, North Korea or even India or Pakistan ??

Or are we getting waay of topic here ?

Maybe a new thread !

[sfhand]

They could decide to go with smaller tiles ... 4x4, e.g.

This would have major implications on team placement logic, I'd presume.

Best regards,

Thomm

As much as I'd like to see this type of improvement, I think it will only come after the game engine is upgraded to handle multi-core processors. Frequently Steve has said things to the effect that players would need a super-computer to run their ideal game. Currently, every time I play the game I have at least one processor sitting idly by.

Not going to post a commercial link, but one need only google "steam hardware survey" to see how quickly the cpu landscape is changing.

[MikeyD]

Current events have nasty habit of intruding into BFC's long-term plans. Let's recall the CMSF idea predated the Iraq war! They settled on Stryker Brigade literally as the first Stryker Brigades were being formed. So a CMSF-Europe title coming out this time next year will have to take into account that bloody invasion of Lithuania by Finland, and the Russian navy sinking those Chinese cargo vessels in the northwest passage... in 2010.

[Sergei]

So a CMSF-Europe title coming out this time next year will have to take into account that bloody invasion of Lithuania by Finland

Nah, for invasions we prefer Estonia, which we've been raiding for the last 18 years for Finnish export beer. The good thing about Estonians is that they understand Finnish IF YOU SPEAK LOUD.

[Secondbrooks]

Nah, for invasions we prefer Estonia, which we've been raiding for the last 18 years for Finnish export beer. The good thing about Estonians is that they understand Finnish IF YOU SPEAK LOUD.

Estonian spirit. Man goes to Estonia for one day trip and doesn't see clear day in a month. :cool:

[Sgt Joch]

Nah, for invasions we prefer Estonia, which we've been raiding for the last 18 years for Finnish export beer.

I obviously don't get the reference, but is that is tax thing? Seems like a long drive just to get beer.

[Sergei]

I obviously don't get the reference, but is that is tax thing? Seems like a long drive just to get beer.

Alcohol is taxed with a heavy hand in Finland, and thanks to EU you can drive there with a van (on an express ferry), load it up with as much beer and vodka as you can fit in and return as a hero with your trophies of conquest. The more you ferry over, the more you save!!!

We had a prohibition law in the 1920's and Estonia was the primary source of smuggled alcohol even then. Some things never change!

Keep in mind, Tallinn is closer to Helsinki than the second and third biggest cities in Finland. So it's not that far away. Plus you get a few hours of bingo or karaoke on the ferry, which is always a plus.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Alcohol is taxed with a heavy hand in Finland, and thanks to EU you can drive there with a van (on an express ferry), load it up with as much beer and vodka as you can fit in and return as a hero with your trophies of conquest. The more you ferry over, the more you save!!!

We had a prohibition law in the 1920's and Estonia was the primary source of smuggled alcohol even then. Some things never change!

Keep in mind, Tallinn is closer to Helsinki than the second and third biggest cities in Finland. So it's not that far away. Plus you get a few hours of bingo or karaoke on the ferry, which is always a plus.

Sergei, you had me laughing with this post. I'm sorry that the alcohol is taxed so heavily for you guys. Do you know why that is?

[John Kettler]

Some comments and observations.

First, the issue of AI positioning men properly is complex and nontrivial. The FPS Brothers in Arms, which had a development budget astronomic compared to CMSF, had terrible problems with this issue, as anyone who played the first two BiA games (haven't played the third yet) can attest. Time and again, I'd issue orders to place the men behind the wall, only to have the AI put them on the enemy's side. Maddening. I should mention, too, that in the first BiA, low stone walls were uncrossable obstacles and that while men could crouch, they couldn't go prone, low crawl or belly crawl. Memory's hazy, but I believe that while wall hopping was fixed in the second BiA game, the other posture and movement issues definitely remain.

Second, kudos, Mark Ezra! Cool vid showing what can happen to even the mightiest of tanks. I suspect that whatever the Americans were doing would come to a sudden halt right after the first two M1s were lost.

Third, I'd love to see a Cold War version of CMx2, to include the scary actual capabilities the Russians had and which we only much later learned of, causing, inter alia, wholesale replacement of most of our antiarmor weaponry and forcing massive rework of the M1's armor scheme. It'd be refreshing to see Americans fight a force whose mil tech was on par with/better than their own. For example, at a time when the U.S. had a relative handful of vanilla M1s in Europe, the GFSG tank sheds were full of T-64s and T-72s, hundreds upon hundreds, and they weren't shooting monkey model ammo either. No steel penetrators! Of course, the scenarios would have to be tweaked to reflect that map reality of attack sectors in East Germany didn't match ground truth, drastically reducing the size of the attack. You see, once we eyeballed it and walked it after the Berlin Wall fell, we discovered there simply wasn't enough room for the Red forces to deploy. That said, the official casualty planning forecast for American units fighting the covering force battle circa late 80s was 50%, to include my brother in his M3 Bradley CFV right by the Inter German Border.

Regards,

John Kettler

[jjhouston]

I was a private back in those days. . . . I never looked forward to the days of M-113 with a M2 vs a BMP's 73mm.

Grymm,

My M113 driving days were in Friedberg. We mighta chewed some of the same dirt; just wondering.

[Sergei]

Sergei, you had me laughing with this post. I'm sorry that the alcohol is taxed so heavily for you guys. Do you know why that is?

To cover the costs caused by alcohol related health and social problems. Basically the cheaper the alcohol is, the more packed the emergency rooms will be during weekends, the more occupied the police will be with drunkards doing the darndest things and the more people will be missing from work due to self-induced headache (or being in ER/jail). To increase government income there is also an alcohol retail monopoly, basically everything stronger than beer is sold through monopoly stores. Wine farms make an exception.

There's also the general price (and wage) difference between Finland and Estonia. Food there is cheaper too, but for some reason most Finns don't go there to buy bread except in liquid form. Meanwhile for Estonians themselves the booze isn't that cheap. FWIW In Norway the alcohol is even more expensive, but they're oil sheikhs, they can afford it.

[Pandur]

ah so thats why you guys go all nuts when you are on hollidays in mid or south europe, where cheap beer costs almost as much as expensive water

although its getting worse here too, slowly...

[[hirr]Leto]

Hirr Leto

Seriously mate, you really need to listen to this. It's just a game. It's a hobby. You don't like it. Oh No! Who cares? It's time to put it all behind you and move on. There really have to be more important things for you to do in your life than waste your gifts fretting about a game you don't like or the people that do, aren't there?

TBH, the one reason I post here now is because it obviously makes you so damn fretty. Perhaps you can enjoy your game without prickling about those who do not in the same vein that you approached me with such sage advice.

If there was a second, I suppose it would be my holding out for CM Normandy to be more like CMx1 in terms of fun, regardless of the engine.

Although reason one is much more enjoyable, I think there is validity attached to number 2, and thus your advice to move on is both misplaced and utterly contemptuous in terms of the conveyance of your attitude towards those who may not completely agree with your own worldviews.

This board is for conversation about the Combat Mission games, and whether you like CMSF or not, CMx1 and CMx2, for better or worse, will always be interrelated with respect to that conversation, especially in terms of moving forward to new games.

*sigh*

Cheers!

Leto

[Paper Tiger]

Talk about missing the point. I'm the one saying it's a game, you want to make it personal. How old are you? What a shame that I thought you were a bit more mature than your posts here suggest. Intelligent? Yes I'll definitely give you that. Mature? Obviously not.

[Paper Tiger]

Hirr Leto

I have taken some time to consider your earlier post. This is not a matter of me conveying my contempt towards someone who does not share my views. This is a matter of you posting your long-winded and intellectually pretentious farts on these boards with the intention of pissing off the folks who do enjoy playing it and then scurrying back off to wherever it is that you skulk to congratulate yourself on a job well done.

That some wargamers are capable of enjoying this game while you can't offends your world view and not mine so stop trying to portray me as the unreasonable one. It is very sad that you are unable to desist from taking these shots two years+ after the game was released and that really should alert you to the fact that there is something irrational about your nature. Not only do you take a perverse pleasure in finding ways to belittle CMSF fans on these boards while making yourself appear superior to us in the process, you actually care enough about CMSF to crusade to keep it off the wargame communities that you frequent. These are not the actions of someone who is interested in participating in discussions about a game on the designer's boards but rather those of someone who takes that game far too seriously.

In conclusion, I consider you to be an unbalanced individual who may be even be potentially dangerous to continue interacting with. Since you are clearly too obsessed with CMSF to move on I have taken the step of ignoring you so that I don't have to interact with you further and you are not coming off that list.

cheers!

[BlackMoria]

And on that note, the thread slides to a new low...

In attempt to put the brakes on the slide to getting the thread locked, I offer this to the OP.

Look up from the military manuals on doing the combat estimate (what we call it in the Canadian military). It is a exercise of thinking about the enemy, his resources, his probable intent with detailed consideration of the terrain, time and space, weather and friendly forces. Based on that, you analyse the options open to you and the enemy and develop a course of action that gives you the best chance of success. From that course of action, you develop your 'plan', the nut and bolts of how you are going to get from where you currently are to sinking your teeth into the enemy's neck.

I have found doing a combat estimate as part of the scenario setup (I fly the camera over the ground to examine the terrain and approaches as part of the terrain study) allows me to come up with a plan. The devil is implementing that plan in the face of enemy opposition and we all know that no plan survives contact with the enemy but that is part of the charm of playing the game.

I think learning to do combat estimates or whatever the American forces call it will help you in getting better enjoyment out of CMSF.