kipanderson Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Hi, Let me start by saying that I do not have a problem with fictional settings. For many years, five or so, I was the most ardent and persistent advocate of a NATO Central Front’70s/’80s style game. It would still be my favourite non-WWII setting. I also like the idea of having a new set of toys to play with; this is a very big attraction of a post-WWII setting for CM. Added to which with all that the US/Britain have become involved with in the Middle East over the last five years I can see the real economic/sales incentive for the CMSF setting. So a fictional setting in today’s Middle East makes sense and I am hugely looking forward to getting my hands on CMSF…. its great to have new CM to look forward to as five or six years ago… its like Christmas . However… it is a shame that there is to be no Israeli module. An Israeli module would add a layer of realism to the setting that is absent at present. As with a NATO Central Front game the new set of toys that CMSF will give us to play with, and the new setting, let alone the vast improvements in the engine all add to a great mix…. but an Israeli module would add a level of realism that is otherwise absent. And that is a shame. Israel and Syria are after all neighbours, from their respective points of view “neighbours from Hell” but neighbours all the same. Just last year they had what in part was a proxy war with very interesting outcomes. (It has long been my view that a First World army that came up against ‘90s and later Russian anti-armour weapons would find life way more difficult than most pundits predicted.) Of all the possible scenarios involving Syria a new war in part over Lebanon between Syria and Israel must be the most likely of a number of possibilities in the area. Scenarios involving Israel trying to take and then hold onto Damascus would ring true in a way other scenarios do not. Although I am from the UK…well New Zealand really , I would still prefer an Israeli module to any NATO country or US Marines. It would be biggest possible boast to the list of possible scenarios. It would add realism that is otherwise absent….. but I still look forward to CMSF even without Israelis forces . Counting the days to 27th July, All good fun, All the best, Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 I just wanna play with merkava's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 I think BFC are right in the sense that a future ME war in which NATO and IDF forces fight along side each other is out of the question. In both recent conflicts involving NATO members, Israel was specifically pursuaded NOT to get involved, for fear of what it would do to Arab opinion in the region. However I too would like to see some sort of "alternative" campaign in the future depicting a showdown between Israel and Syria. Perhaps it could be done as a third party mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Hi, I agree with both of the above posts in that playing with the latest Israeli toys would be great, plus I too would not expect Israel to fight alongside NATO for the reason given above. However…. I am a little puzzled that Battlefront seem so keen to stick to NATO countries for the modules in that I would have thought a Israeli module would sell even better than say… a British module. If there were an Israeli module it would be to use “instead of” NATO in games against Syria not alongside a NATO force. I also would be surprised if modelling the IDF took any more work than modelling the British. Given the current state of the Middle East, given last years war in the Lebanon and given the sales potential of an Israeli module I am surprised that Battlefront are not interested in modelling the IDF instead of European nations. Drop the European nations and add the Israelis and we would have more realistic scenarios to play and Battlefront better sales of modules. Win, win . All good fun, All the best, Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Originally posted by kipanderson: Hi, I agree with both of the above posts in that playing with the latest Israeli toys would be great, plus I too would not expect Israel to fight alongside NATO for the reason given above. However…. I am a little puzzled that Battlefront seem so keen to stick to NATO countries for the modules in that I would have thought a Israeli module would sell even better than say… a British module. If there were an Israeli module it would be to use “instead of” NATO in games against Syria not alongside a NATO force. I also would be surprised if modelling the IDF took any more work than modelling the British. Given the current state of the Middle East, given last years war in the Lebanon and given the sales potential of an Israeli module I am surprised that Battlefront are not interested in modelling the IDF instead of European nations. Drop the European nations and add the Israelis and we would have more realistic scenarios to play and Battlefront better sales of modules. Win, win . All good fun, All the best, Kip. You really feel the Israelis are more forthcoming with details of their military hardware and training regimes than the British? Why? Incicentally. Cornet Wales is in Canada, training at British Army Training Unit Suffield. The big mouthed assholes in the press just couldn't resist plastering him on page one of yesterday's newspapers here in Alberta. Sorry...you were saying something about how easy it is to research Israeli military hardware. Do continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Michael, “you were saying something about how easy it is to research Israeli military hardware” I am not saying anything about how easy, or difficult, it is to research any nation’s current equipment . When I used to follow these things very closely it was based on a mix of an understanding of the potential technologies that may be being used, details such as weight of an AFV and relatively rare battlefield results and test firing results. When all is put together there is a fantastic amount of knowledge out there on current kit. But ultimately it will be a matter of the assumptions being used. This will be true about the latest kit of most nations. If you take the knowledge of the guy that did the research for Steel Beasts some six years ago, add in battlefield results/test results/gossip found in many of the Jane’s journals and you are a long way down the path to making a very educated guess. All the best, Kip. PS. I feel sorry for Cornet Wales in that today’s terrorist based wars are not ideal for royals to make a career out of. Small, but more tradition wars such as the Falklands or the first Gulf War are far more doable by royals than occupation duties and terrorist wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Originally posted by kipanderson: However…. I am a little puzzled that Battlefront seem so keen to stick to NATO countries for the modules in that I would have thought a Israeli module would sell even better than say… a British module. I don't see why this would be so. I'd be very surprised if the CM series of games have not sold far more copies in the UK than in Israel. There are only about 7 million people in Israel. BFC are targeting their biggest markets. US, UK, and Germany -- which will enable Canadian forces to be introduced as well. I bet BFC have sold more copies of CM in Finland than Israel. Don't get me wrong, I think an Israeli module would be fun but it ain't gonna happen. Besides, I think a French module would be more fun in blue on blue games (I had to get that in there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Actually, I have always wanted to mess around around with the French Leclerc MBT... Leclerc vs Merkavas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 I would go for a series of historical CMx2 games covering the '67 war or whatever, but I doubt BFC is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsobill Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 jewish module with palestinian children as human shields, use of cluster bombs, napalm and chemical weapons on innocent civilians and fashist tacticts in THIS game ? Thanks God no... also read http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=001466 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 How can you have a middle east wargame without Iraq, Iran, and Israel? Yet there is talk about Germany, UK, and other euro military powers, I still don't get it? What's next, China or North Korea invade Jorden? If your gona have a middle east war game give us the equipment of the most common countries in the region and let us decide who fights who. If BattleFront wants to include all the euro powers then create a war in Europe game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Sales from an IDF module are obviously not worth the effort and time. CMBB was 10 times more deep than CMBO and was portraying the most collosal clash world has ever witnessed and yet it wasnt that popular because there were no yanks on the Volga banks. I'd love to see the IDF but sadly there are some market rules you cant break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Well, back to Normandy then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Uhm, because it isn't a middle east wargame? It is a wargame about the Stryker brigade, and it just so happens the middle east is the most likely place for it to fight organised opposition. Guess Korea would be the other. ISTR we can play blue on blue, so I think first and foremost this is looking to be a simulation of Stryker brigade concepts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Originally posted by Runyan99: Well, back to Normandy then... For the millionth time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: Uhm, because it isn't a middle east wargame? It is a wargame about the Stryker brigade, and it just so happens the middle east is the most likely place for it to fight organised opposition. Guess Korea would be the other. ISTR we can play blue on blue, so I think first and foremost this is looking to be a simulation of Stryker brigade concepts... If it is a wargame about Stryker brigades what are the USMC and Poms doing tagging along :mad: :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 They have to justify their existance somehow. (Look, the old grunt can still dish it out!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 You got me thinking, just how accessible is the TO&E of a standard Israeli infantry Company? I genuinely don't know. Its eather readily accessible due to the 'citizen soldier' nature of the Israeli army - OR its a tightly held State secret due to Israel's 'state of seige' mentality. BFC's done a miraculous job throwing the curtain back on the structure of the Syrian army. I wonder if the Israeli Army structure would be half so forthcoming. [ June 04, 2007, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Originally posted by MikeyD: You got me thinking, just how accessible is the TO&E of a standard Israeli infantry Company? I genuinely don't know. Its eather readily accessible due to the 'citizen soldier' nature of the Israli army - OR its a tightly held State secret due to Israel's 'state of seige' mentality. BFC's done a miraculous job throwing the curtain back on the structue of the Syrian army. I wonder if the Israeli Army structure would be half so forthcoming. Quite. As opposed to NATO forces, who host ridiculously detailed websites with photos of all their equipment, publicly available military journals with details of order of battle and lessons learned, and a host of chatty soldiers talking about personal experiences in blogs and books. A whole gamut of research material not including museums (national, army, regimental) and private publications such as wargaming and general interest historical magazines/journals all clamouring to publish "stuff" about them. Topped off by militaries looking for recruiting tools in the form of video games, willing to trade some lesser "state secrets" in exchange for the favour of having a game made about them. See Close Combat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Uhm, because it isn't a middle east wargame? It is a wargame about the Stryker brigade, and it just so happens the middle east is the most likely place for it to fight organised opposition. Guess Korea would be the other. It is? then why are they talking about adding the UK, and other euro military units, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Originally posted by unsobill: jewish module with palestinian children as human shields, use of cluster bombs, napalm and chemical weapons on innocent civilians and fashist tacticts in THIS game ? Thanks God no... also read http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=001466 Oh please, where do these nuts come from?? Why don't you go post that crap on some hezbollah web site where it belongs? And in case you're too stupid to figure it out, it's arab terrorists that deliberately put arab women and children as human shields around themselves and their rocket launchers that they are firing on Israel as shields, so they are killed when Israel counter-attacks the terrorists for murdering Israeli citizens. The terrorists do this so they can then complain later on in front of a reporter's camera about the poor civilians that the Israelis killed. Even though it was the arabs themselves that stuck the civilians there by the rocket launchers hoping they would be killed, so they can try to gain political sympathy with the blood of their own children (who they, in effect, murdered themselves). A real nice bunch of people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Lee, Somehow I get the impression he isn't going to listen to reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Oh gawd no, lets not rehash the whole middle-east conflict on this topic! It can't do anything but get really really really ugly. Besides, with the kalidoscopic way alliances shift in the middle-east it'd be hell to work an Israeli-based theatre for release a couple years down the road. Just today I read a news report how Hezbollah in Lebanon is gravely concerned about the rising influence of A Qaida (or however its spelled) in refugee camps! This region does not give us the simplicity of a bi-polar conflict. Iran was as happy as anyone to see the Taliban overthrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsobill Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Originally posted by Lee: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by unsobill: jewish module with palestinian children as human shields, use of cluster bombs, napalm and chemical weapons on innocent civilians and fashist tacticts in THIS game ? Thanks God no... also read http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=001466 Oh please, where do these nuts come from?? Why don't you go post that crap on some hezbollah web site where it belongs? And in case you're too stupid to figure it out, it's arab terrorists that deliberately put arab women and children as human shields around themselves and their rocket launchers that they are firing on Israel as shields, so they are killed when Israel counter-attacks the terrorists for murdering Israeli citizens. The terrorists do this so they can then complain later on in front of a reporter's camera about the poor civilians that the Israelis killed. Even though it was the arabs themselves that stuck the civilians there by the rocket launchers hoping they would be killed, so they can try to gain political sympathy with the blood of their own children (who they, in effect, murdered themselves). A real nice bunch of people... </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsobill Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Originally posted by Normal Dude: Lee, Somehow I get the impression he isn't going to listen to reason. i AM listening- there no points provided - show me the proof or any facts first. Show me the proof that resistance partisans strap palestinian children to mortars or katyusha rockets to achieve their safety. This is nonsense - IDF killing kids just for fun everyday, you think partisans dont know that IDF dont care about them while "hiding" behind those kids? average bullocks that you see on the box. main question is "why palestinians have to pay for holocoust ?" ww2 took over 25 millions life of soviet people - you dont see them benefit themselfs over that and occupying Europe or Jerusalim do you?. [ June 05, 2007, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: unsobill ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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