New concept for CM:SF setting

[Battlefront.com]

In case you guys missed it, there is very long thread about how to handle the fact that a ground war with Syria (or any other decent sized nation) is simply not practical for the next bunch of years, say 5-10. This reality has dictated that the story we've been working on for CM:SF has to be abandoned. Ok, so there is no realistic way to explain a conventional war against Syria. Since "Syria with Major Backstory" is impractical, we have two other options open to us:

Fictional

The terrain, TO&E, weather, uniforms, and everything else associated with the OPFOR (Red Force) will look just like Syrian stuff, but we don't call it Syria. Instead we make a fictitious country, backstory, and go with that. Many games do this and we don't feel this would cause any significant problems. Especially since it really only affects the Campaign since people can mod and make their own scenarios that are grounded in Syria or any other place for that matter. The downside of this is then we have to make up Arabic sounding names, create a flag, make a map, and do so in a way that doesn't come off as being childish (like the many names I made up for the discussion ). This could take quite a bit of work. On the plus side it frees us up from having to come up with a backstory that couldn't possibly happen and instead focus on something that is challenging and fun. Better still, it means we can sidestep TO&E restrictions without any explanation since we're no longer conceptually bound by what Syria actually has or is likely to have by 2007.

Syria with Minor Backstory

Call it Syria, but be honest and just say "this is a plausible scenario for a major ground war against Syria in 2007, however impractical it may be. Just make a leap with us so we can get on with the game." In other words, call it Syria but don't try to justify the setting's plausibility since nothing we could come up would be plausible. This releases us from having to create a fictional country and avoids a possible backlash from people that feel the campaign lacks a soul. The drawback is that the TO&E would not be expandable because we'd want to keep it realistic since we are calling it Syria.

After much discussion about the pros and cons of these things, with most (I think it is fair to say) siding with either Fictional or "I don't care, ship the f'n game!" I think I've managed to come to a good compromise that gets us the best of both and the worst of neither. See if you like this:

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection

Everything that I said above with "Syria with Minor Backstory" is included here. However, we create a new type of OPFOR force, called a Branch in CMx2 speak, to represent units that are not realistic for Syria. Let's say we call it the "Ahistoric Branch". It would sit right next to other Branches such as Syrian Army, Syrian Special Forces, Irregulars, etc. (we aren't quite sure how we're dividing stuff up yet). This is pretty similar to how we did things in CMx1 and it means that the player knows for sure that he is using unrealistic stuff. Scenario Designers that want to make a strictly realistic scenario set in Syria can therefore know not to include anything from the Ahistoric Branch and everything will be fine. When making Campaign battles we would not use anything from the Ahistoric Branch either, obviously. We could also make it a toggle option for QuickBattles so you could for sure only play with legitimate Syrian forces only or play with "unrealistic" cool stuff.

So what do you think?

Steve

[YankeeDog]

On further review, I change my Vote to "Syria with Minor Backstory and Minor Subsection".

As much as I would love a "Major Backstory", putting the campaign in the context of some kind of major world event, since time and effort is limited, I'd rather have you guys spend your time and effort adding more units etc. to the game, rather than creative writing.

Best of both worlds to me -- realistic-as-possible Syrian OPFOR, and some "extras" to play with, that the Syrians don't have, but some other potential OPFORs do.

I can make up my own campaign backstories, if I need to.

[Pete Wenman]

A good compromise is a win:win situation, and

this is a great compromise

Do it

Pete

[Sgt Joch]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection sounds perfect.

It will keep the "realists" like me happy since we have a real war against Syria, plus the flexibility to explore various "what if?" scenarios to extend the lifespan of CMSF.

[vetacon]

I'm for it. Should satisfy allcomers.

[Dirtweasle]

Anything is better than pure fictional.

At the risk of digression, what is the likely hood that the the US comes to the aid of Israel should let's say Sysria go over the edge and it looks like they are about to to take out Israel? Might not be in the cards, but should make a good "Syria with Minor Backstory " operation / campaign. Side benefit is you get to add an Israel module.

[akd]

Syria with Minor Backstory

Call it Syria, but be honest and just say "this is a plausible scenario for a major ground war against Syria in 2007, however impractical it may be. Just make a leap with us so we can get on with the game." In other words, call it Syria but don't try to justify the setting's plausibility since nothing we could come up would be plausible. This releases us from having to create a fictional country and avoids a possible backlash from people that feel the campaign lacks a soul. The drawback is that the TO&E would not be expandable because we'd want to keep it realistic since we are calling it Syria.

After much discussion about the pros and cons of these things, with most (I think it is fair to say) siding with either Fictional or "I don't care, ship the f'n game!" I think I've managed to come to a good compromise that gets us the best of both and the worst of neither. See if you like this:

I vote this, because I really want the game to take place on real-world terrain (I mean from actual maps) with real names and against a real-world military force.

However, since the "plausible divide" must be leaped anyways, I recommend that the Syrian opposition not be depicted by the lowest common denominator of what's plausible (any modern AFV's they have would probably be destroyed from the air, the opposition would probably fold as in the deserts of Iraq and be steam-rolled in a few weeks rather than fight tenaciously in the broken hills of Syria , Hezbollah would probably not intervene in force, the short timeframe of the campaign would probably eliminate all sorts of interesting possibilities, etc.), but rather by what is possible.

I think this would provide the basis for a much richer campaign and the building blocks for a much more flexible editor and battle generator.

[ September 18, 2006, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: akd ]

[aka_tom_w]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection/Ahistoric Branch

This is PERFECT! Its the best of both options and with extra "unrealistic" cool stuff. I think the game really needs this so there might be some incentive for a player to want play on the NON U.S. side and have a chance of winning. That way it can still be a realistic simulation AND a fun GAME to play, all at the same time without, ticking anyone off!

Excellent solution!

Go with it!

" However, we create a new type of OPFOR force, called a Branch in CMx2 speak, to represent units that are not realistic for Syria. Let's say we call it the "Ahistoric Branch". "

I could be wrong but perhaps the only downside here is: " we create a new type of OPFOR force" so it might take longer to finish the game that includes the new "extra branch" OPFOR force.

Oh well... It still gets my vote.

Thanks

-tom w

[Nicdain]

I vote for the "Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection" choice. It's without doubt the best compromise.

BTW will this "Branch force" simulate fictional Syrian Army equipment or a force belonging to a different nation involved in the conflict (e.g. Russia, Iran, etc.)?

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the quick feedback,

Tom,

I could be wrong but perhaps the only downside here is: " we create a new type of OPFOR force" so it might take longer to finish the game that includes the new "extra branch" OPFOR force

Not to fear. Whatever we put in the Ahistoric Branch will either come at the expense of something in the other sections or will come in a later Module. Most likely there won't be much in the Ahistoric Section for the first release. We simply don't have the time for much.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

OK

Thanks

The potential for the future module of Ahistoric Branch equipment should be built into the first release even if it only has a handful of "spare parts".

Even if there is something: "Most likely there won't be much in the Ahistoric Section for the first release", that would be great, with the potential for more units later...

Sounds great!

-tom w

[MikeyD]

What I wonder is how the 'brain trust' members of this board could've written all 177 posts on the subject in the original thread and nobody suggested anything like this as a solution? You just love showin' us up, don't you!

[Lee_DiSantis]

another brilliant idea just came to me. how bout the syrians invade new mexico? the only new textures you'll need will be an occassional wal mart.

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

What I wonder is how the 'brain trust' members of this board could've written all 177 posts on the subject in the original thread and nobody suggested anything like this as a solution? You just love showin' us up, don't you!

You must've missed this one :

Originally posted by Glukx Ouglouk:

Maybe it's not possible, but why not do both Syria and fictional ?

If you can make a Syrian backstory, do it, so that in the campaign which comes with the game we get real names, real places, and the like - and, of course, no T-80s.

But in the scenario editor, add a drop-down menu which let the scenario designer choose between "Syria" and "hypothetical OPFOR" (just like we can choose between US and UK in CMx1). If Syria is chosen, the designer will only be able to use syrian equipment and TO&E ; if OPFOR is, he can choose any equipment and TO&E avalaible in the game and the modules (which will be limited to Syrian stuff whith the game alone, but more will come with the modules).

That way, you even get the opportunity to include other real countries for the red side in future modules if you find it interesting (as long as they share most of their equipments whith Syria, but that's the case, to some extent, for a number of countries using ex-Soviet/Russian equipment).

Maybe it's unfeasible, or maybe too much work would be needed to implement that, but it seems reasonable to me - as long as you can come with a backstory for Syria, but isn't a minor one still better than none at all ?

EDIT: ...and Schrullenhaft suggested something like it on the very first page.

[ September 18, 2006, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: PseudoSimonds ]

[PAEZ]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection

Good, now let's play

[aka_tom_w]

"EDIT: ...and Schrullenhaft suggested something like it on the very first page."

Correct.

and acknowledged by Steve:

posted September 15, 2006 12:44 AM

Schrullenhaft,

I had thought about the Syria with Minmal Backstory and Options. It is a possibility worth thinking about some more.

Steve

[kipanderson]

Steve,

“Syria with Minor Back story and Fictional Subsection”

Gets my vote for sure…. Just the job .

I am one who would be happy to fight OPFORs games but still have problems with fictional terrain so am happy all the terrain features will be closely modeled on one real world location. The “real world” location could have been the NTC… but Syria is better… more interesting .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[jeffsmith]

OK Problem Solved

Move em Out !!!

[hellfish]

I'd still prefer Fictional, but the Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection is a good compromise. I still get some cool toys to play with that I couldn't if the Syria-only junkies had their way.

Only problem is that I'm not gonna have my Algerian T-90s now.

[konstantine]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection

I'd buy that. Nice compromise.

[Kong]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection or (SMBFS)

Sounds good.

[Sgt.Rock of Easy Company]

I have no problems with any of the choices yall make, as long as yall still make the game

But couldnt yall escalade the seriousness of the situation to come up with a deeper background story? Like the U.S. have just launched a ground war into Syria, using the minimal amount of force to accomplish the job with less soldiers at risk. While in the ground war fighting syrians (breaking down terrorist organizations and cells holed up in Syria), the U.S. runs into stiff opposition and realize that the enemy are using some modern russian equipment (T-80's, T-90's, etc.). After a hasty retreat to regroup (the small american force is outnumbered), intel releases information that there has been an Iranian interdiction (They mobolized as fast as they could to catch the american forces off-guard). As the American force on the ground fight a defensive war, gradually being pushed back, the U.S. is mobilizing everything they can get their hands on. As more and more U.S. forces enter Syria, the tables start to turn as they push back the Iranian/Syrian forces. Then <insert some kind of war ending scenarios, like Iran being pushed across the border, or capture of a high ranking figure>.

So basically, small U.S. force fights and still outnumbers and outguns the Syrian forces (US on the offensive in the first part of the war). Interdiction by a major country in the surrounding area, using modern equipment, US forces outnumbered, matched in firepower, and fighting defensively. US mobolizes, outnumbers or matches combined major country/Syrian forces and go back on the offensive.

With this scenario, with the US being in trouble, you could even throw in some coalition forces units and missions as well (Americans not the big guys on the block in a war, BLASHPEMY ). Like canadians, germans or the british.

Just a thought.

P.S.- the first time I read the OP post, OPFORIA from Americas Army popped into my head .

[Cpl Steiner]

Syria with Minor Backstory and Fictional Subsection.

Real place, real enemy, plus some anachronistic cool stuff for those extra-special "fun" scenarios. This gets my vote too. Now just get the game out the door so we can all marvel at the new all-singing, all-dancing CMx2 engine!

[V]

How about just put it in Iraq?

Just say no to fictional.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

What I wonder is how the 'brain trust' members of this board could've written all 177 posts on the subject in the original thread and nobody suggested anything like this as a solution? You just love showin' us up, don't you!

No big deal, but I believe I referred to this as the "Schrullenshaft Gambit" a few days ago.