Interesting...

[The_Capt]

Wow, this is quite a leap guys. I for one will be very interested to see what you come up with.

Modern combat is one helluva different kettle of fish, especially if we are talking near future.

For example, you may as well keep your borg spotting because that is where modern militaries are in fact going. C4ISR representation is going to be very interesting.

I will also be interested in how you are going to handle range. I can remember back in the day we were discussing a modern CM game but the problem always was the significant increase in range demands. For example an AT kill in WWII might go as far as 2000 meters. In modern combat this engagement range is well past 8000 meters for some weapon systems.

I for one am very happy to see you guys back outside the comfort zone. One of my biggest heartaches was the fact that CMAK was really an expansion pack of CMBB. I lived in fear of yet another WWII game "now with lens flare".

For the complainers out there, keep in mind we are wargamers and as such detest boredom. CM:SF will be many things but I doubt it will be boring.

[Zalgiris 1410]

I think that the expanded AT kill ranges problems for modernized CM combat may have something to do with the insistance by Steve that CM:SF is a company sized simulation wargame. I think he believes that the problems go away while he throws the baby out with the bath water!

[hellfish]

Can't kill anything at 8000m when the map only goes to 2000x2000m. Besides, most 8000m ranged weapons are aircraft based. Very few land missile systems reach that far - there's no point as it's rare that you'll ever actually have 8000m of clean, unbroken LOS. Hell, even 2000m of unbroken LOS is pretty rare, lest you be in the mountains or empty desert.

[M1A1TC]

Average armor engagements are at around 1200 meters

[Salkin]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Average armor engagements are at around 1200 meters

This may be true but will there be real tank duels ?

With modern sights wont the stationary tank hit every shoot?

//Salkin

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the comments Capt. Yeah, there isn't much that would go over about 2000m in a realistic setting. LOSAT obviously can reach out and smash things several times longer, but I don't think that is important to simulate. Something like that likely preempts an engagement rather than being used during one.

BTW, for you guys not up on the lingo, LOSAT is the AT missile your mom always told you to be careful of when playing with your tanks. If it can see it, it can scatter it all over the place and NOTHING can stop it.

Steve

[Moon]

Guys guys guys... theoretical engagements ranges are worth as much as... as... theoretical RPM stats for modern small-arms. If there is one thing I learned after playing CM for the first time is that it's time to throw many of the bad habits of "static" board wargames based on charts and dice rolls out of the window. After playing Steel Panthers MBT (or whatever the modern version was called) I lost all interested in modern combat, but after playing CM just once, I began wondering if SP got it all wrong.

It's the little things that turn modern combat into much less of a "fire and forget" than some seem to assume.

Any of you played our T72 tank sim? Just the right simulation of smoke can make all those stastistics about max. engagegment and lethal ranges totally meaningless.

Umm... well, I'm on a rant a bit I guess...

Martin

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Moon:

After playing Steel Panthers MBT (or whatever the modern version was called) I lost all interested in modern combat

Steel Panthers II Modern Battles - boy was it a disappointment or what?! I think I may have played it three times before sending it to the drawer of doom...

[Tagwyn]

Moonie: Isn't T-72 enough of a modern fix for you? What about TacOps? Love the concept of CMC but would make it on the Western Front using the cm2 engine. Why not Iran for the CM2 engine? Don't tell me it is too big, what nonsense! We are not trying to cover the whole campaign but justs bits and pieces after all. Love you guys, really!! You do things right which is why you should do Iran instead of Syria. Heck, Grandma Jones and a broom could probably take out Syria. LOL TAG

[Kwazydog]

Tagwyn, Iran was a close second but there were many reasons why Syria was a better choice. For instnace when we compared the geography, military forces and equipment available between the two nations we found that Syria posed considerably more challanges for the player.

On top of that Syria has been taking some steps towards modernizing their forces which should also provide some interesting challanges such as tank upgrades, ATGM purchases and even night vision gear.

Dan

[ October 14, 2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[MikeyD]

Talk about theoretical ranges, the RPG's theoretical range it a whopping 950m (then it self-destructs). Can anybody actually hit anything at 950m, though? The Army says RPG is lethal in the hands of a total novice at ranges of 150m and under. Much beyond that and the firer's skill level has to grow exponentially to keep it under control.

As to the line "...may as well keep your borg spotting", I had similar thoughts. Much of a Stryker Brigade's pricetag involves networked PCs to increase situational awareness. Rumor has it, though, that the chances that everyone on the net is plugged in and working properly in the field has not quite reached 100% yet.

[M1A1TC]

What will the screen look like during night engagements? Will it have green night vision hue? That would be cool

There have been tank kills( M1A1 versus T-72) over 3000 meters, but those are very lucky shots. The trigger line is normally 2000 meters, with most effective range 1200 meters

During one battle, my tank with support of a bradley platoon destroyed about a company size enemy element from a defensive position. We used alternate battle positions, all hull down. Battle took about 3 hours, it was a night, no air assets available

In another battle my company took a lot of losses from RPG gunners hiding in spider holes

[ October 14, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[MikeyD]

In CM1 a unit may have "Has Binoculars" in his description, and his ability to spot jumps accordingly. I can imagine if a unit shows the line "Has Night Goggles" in his description then his ability to fight in low light would jump in the same way. I don't know if BFC would bother to render the device actually in front of the individual's face. But I'm expecting to be surprised by this game.

[The_Capt]

Glad to see I got a reaction.

Most tank to tank engagements are still in the sub-2000 meter range, I agree. But keep in mind we are talking near future here. LOS shots of over 2000 meters are very possible depending on the terrain and weapon system. The current generation of ATGs can reach out to 3600 plus, not counting the Attack Helicopters which can get clean shots at 8000 (I will be very interested to see this one).

Now to take it to the next level, precision guided munitions can give you kills at the range you can basically see, with that vision often via UAV or satellite.

It is this technology that has basicaly forced OPFOR armour to go underground...so to speak.

But Steve makes an excellent point, these ranges normally pre-empt (which is actually the whole point) the types of actions they are looking at in CM:SF which appear to be the short sharp and dirty firefights. I can't wait to see how differences in C2 are portrayed. Playing the bad guys should be a helluva challenge.

[Bil Hardenberger]

You make an interesting point Warren about the borg spotting... it will be interesting to see the effect digital comms for the US forces have on the battles... if recreated correctly the US side will have great situational awareness while the Syrian's (OPFOR) will be hamstrung and in the dark about not only enemy forces but friendly troop information (Will we perhaps see friendly FOW?).

Still experience has proven that even the excellent information sharing technology that the US has is not perfect, for example, the tendancy is for these types of units to be micro-managed by higher echelons, which really does nothing but disrupt coordination and spread confusion.

I am especially looking forward to the communications aspect of this game, it has some serious consequences on how the battles play out.

Bil

[antawar]

m1a1 commander

Could you elaborate on that battle with lot of losses to RPGs ? What's "lot of losses" .. 2-3 tanks or bradleys ?

How does the M1A2 fares against RPG ?

[Midnight Warrior]

BTW, for you guys not up on the lingo, LOSAT is the AT missile your mom always told you to be careful of when playing with your tanks. If it can see it, it can scatter it all over the place and NOTHING can stop it.

I agree! I saw a video of a LOSAT test firing. It simply is a matter of KE = 1/2 m*v^2 where V is unreal and m is not too shabby either! Will LOSAT be fielded by 2007 so as to be includ in CM:SF?

[Midnight Warrior]

I found a LOSAT video here .

[Zalgiris 1410]

O'h MnW that link looks spectacular... and scares the hell out of this WWII gamer for sure I telll you. **chattering teeth** :eek:

[Mace]

Originally posted by Midnight Warrior:

It's a bit more than that, it's also the surface area it's applied to.

Ie KE applied to 1cm^2 would have more 'impact' than the same amount of KE applied to 1m^2.

[Midnight Warrior]

I agree. I just watched some of the other videos. Some of this is pretty sobering stuff! It is one thing to see engineering test shots against unmanned targets; it is quite another to see actual combat footage where real people are being wasted with high tech weapons.

All I can say is Lord, have mercy on their souls (and ours as well).

I've been thinking that perhaps it might not be such a bad thing if CM:SF turns out to be somewhat a turkey shoot after all. Perhaps some potential enemy may play the game and think better of taking on the US and try tat much harder to settle whatever dispute they have with us peacably. It may be an unlikely scenario but it is a nice thought.

(BTW, I'm not trying to make any political statement here.. it is just some of those videos were a bit grim).

[ October 15, 2005, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Midnight Warrior ]

[felixgrey]

Antawar,

For our experience in OIF II an RPG can disable a M1 fairly easily if the shot hits the right area. Back deck, Back of the tank where the exhaust is, etc. However, actual penetrations into the crew compartment is very rare. Most of these tanks can be recovered pretty quickly and repaired. I have never seen a penetration from a front arc on an M1. All the penetrations I saw were from side, back, and underneath.

Scott

[Battlefront.com]

Bil, expect the US forces to have superior Situational Awareness. Check out the scaled down Future Warrior that is now Stryker Warrior. It is going into the field now, or at least extremely soon. We are simulating this.

Remember though... these systems are prone to failure. As was discovered during OIF, what worked well at NTC doesn't necessarily work as well when on the battlefield. Specifically bandwidth, overheating of equipment, breakdowns, battlefield losses, etc. Just like a radio with its antenna shot off... "Private! Take a memo! Dear 1st Platoon. Please excuse my delay getting back to you about the requested mortar support. My radio set is down and I am sending this on foot. However, as it turns out my answer is just the same, and likely to be just as disapointing to you and your men. Request dennied. Sincerely yours, so on and so forth. OK, read that back to me and then get me a cup of coffee"

Steve

[Andrew H.]

The losat video was interesting.

If you follow the smoke trail of the missile, though, it also suggests that everyone on the battlefield is going to know where fired from.

[vincere]

The Land Warrior basic unit will be a four men strike team, provided with an independent intra-team and squad and platoon communication. The squad will have communications and command and control facilities to manage multiple strike teams including coordinated, multi-directional assaults. The squad will operate three strike teams, a squad leader, a system's squad leader and a situational awareness and effects non-commissioned officer (NCO). The unit will also have provisions to control direct and indirect fire by their own unit as well as adjacent formations. The unit will be self-sustained for 24 hours and will also carry additional supplies for further 48 hours on a manned/unmanned "mule". The squad will have 81mm and 60mm mortars, new support weapons,

Future warrior info page

Read a few reports that infantry battalions are buying their own UAVs and increasingly using robotic vehicles to clear houses and caves etc.