Discussion - Arty/Air Support Improvements

[Battlefront.com]

I figured with all the attention about what CMx1 feature is not in CM:SF, perhaps we should look at something that is in CM:SF that is not in CMx1. It's a strange concept to look at the new stuff, I guess, but it might be fun to try it out

In CMx1 we had a lot of complaints from the artillery professionals (Berli doesn't count just because), and gamers alike, about the simplicity of the artillery system. When we had CMBO evaluated by the Army, officially, this was stated as something that had to be improved. It worked OK for WWII, but even then it wasn't as flexible as it really needed to be (as the Finns constantly reminded us!). So one of the major design goals of CMx2 was to have a vastly upgraded treatment of artillery support.

Additionally, the air support in CMx1 ranged from pretty much spot-on accurate to not quite accurate. Much closer to being accurate compared to artillery, but REALLY off the mark for doing contemporary warfare. So that had to change too.

The system you see in CMx2 is a major improvement for the CM series. It gives us all the flexibility we need to simulate (reasonably) the power and flexibility of contemporary support fire with a quick and efficient UI design. It is also easily scaled back to be more accurate for WWII, as well as being capable of having different options for different forces and/or time periods. It can also be made even MORE detailed if a military organization wants a version with more fine control over variables.

Better still, both artillery and air are controlled using the same UI, slightly tweaked to be more relevant to each platform. It took us a good 2 years to get a uniform, efficeint design that feels (to us at least) quite user friendly YET not be completely dumbed down.

I'm not sure how much you guys have played around with this so far, so I'm curious to know what you all think about it? Especially you guys with red stripes on your legs, or at least a pair of such trousers tucked away in mothballs.

Steve

[molotov_billy]

For the most part, I do like the artillery/air UI. A couple of suggestions/observations - (most of these could be solved by tooltips.)

-The UI icons seem relatively small compared to their level of importance in the game. I didn't notice them for a long time, and didn't realize they were clickable buttons.

-I don't have a good feel for how well a specific unit is at calling in assets. Some type of visible rating would be nice, so that I can make better decisions about who calls in what. Does distance to target have an effect on this?

-I didn't understand that a shorter time limit meant that assets would be less accurate, until I read it on this forum. Again, I don't have a feel for how innaccurate each mission is. I had assumed that a shorter time was always better, and didn't understand why longer time delays were available to me.

-In the case of apaches, I didn't understand the benefits to each of the attack types. (Point, linear, or area.) This was obvious with artillery, not so with the apache. This required a lot of testing on my part, at which point I had ran out of air support by the time I understood what each one did.

-It seems like one unit could call in multiple air assets, but not artillery. I'm not aware of any penalties in terms of accuracy or time if one person is calling in several aircraft - are there any?

-I couldn't find a way to go back and adjust mission configurations that I had mistakenly put in. In other words, when I mistakenly put in "5 minutes" instead of "immediate", there was no way for me to go back and adjust that. I had to cancel the entire mission and redo it.

-Some type of audio cue would be useful once the mission actually begins - like a radio message telling me that artillery was now inbound, or the sound of a helicopter to notify me that an apache had arrived.

[zwobot]

I like the way artillery is handled in the game. The status reports of the assets are a bit weird though ("Firing 1 min" - does this mean the asset will start its mission in less than a minute or will the mission continue for not more than 1 minute?)

I just wonder how I can adjust a mission? Everytime I select the spotter of a fire mission and click on "Adjust mission" nothing happens though the spotter is linked with radio or better to superior units in the chain of command (playing on Blufor).

Is this a bug or is it my fault?

[Hev]

Hi BFC, i am not a profesional, but i am a big CM fan, and a huge fan of artilery

I can say without doubt that the artilery wizard is amazing, its by far the most perfect thing in the game. It does exactly what it should do. it gives you a barrage that you can actualy use tacticly to acheive your goals.

Seriously, i love the arty in CMx2

Ps Of course that whole statement is far to possative, so heres the bad...

WTF is up with the cannon on the A10, seriously. I called a light strike down on a t55 and it came in cannon blazing ( great cannon effect ) but to my surprise the t55 shrugged off this assault. Not sure if your even aware of this but that cannon need some 'roids to beef up its prescence on the battlefield.

[ChrisND]

Well, I am a former mortarman (and FDC), and I find the arty request system to be great. It's like you said, not too detailed, but not too simple. I especially like the more realistic response times.

As far as choice of ammunition goes, I am sure you guys considered what ammo types to include for various reasons, so I will not harp on that.

Complaints:

I can't seem to get any fire mission to adjust.

I've only tried this with arty and not mortars, so an arty guy can correct me if I am wrong, but it takes an awfully long time to cancel a fire mission. In my experience it was a matter of the FO saying cease fire, which I would tell my gun crew, and that was that. Only rounds coming afterwards were ones that were in flight already.

I notice that the manual has the M224 listed, but I've looked around in the editor and haven't seen it. Is it in?

One side question: planning on making mortars on map someday? Not a biggie, but I thought I would ask. Especially for 60mms.

Now for immersion effect we just need the FO to speak the right lingo.

[Percopius]

I like the interface and detail, but maybe add a back button to go back though the set up.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I figured with all the attention about what CMx1 feature is not in CM:SF, perhaps we should look at something that is in CM:SF that is not in CMx1. It's a strange concept to look at the new stuff, I guess, but it might be fun to try it out

You're always at your best when you patronize, Steve-O. So go ahead - knock another one out of the park for us.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks guys! You'll be happy to note that the improvements you've suggested are already on our Wish List. If a developer's Wish List does not contain at least enough stuff to double a project's development cycle, then it's not a Wish List

The main problem with a game of this size and depth is that we have to stop at some point and move onto another feature. Otherwise we'd have the perfect artillery FO simulator and no tanks Somefink like that. So expect a few improvements here and there, especially when we make Modules and new Games. I'm speaking in general terms here, not anything specific to what was suggested here. We haven't prioritized what to put in because we were waiting for feedback from you first.

Molotov_billy, the manual explains some of the things you're wondering about. Only Emergency should screw with your accuracy. Time Delays are there to coordinate with other things you might want to do.

M224s are available for US Company level mortar units. You have to select "BAD" for their Equipment prior to purchase, otherwise you get 81mm.

Onmap mortars will (someday) get into the game. It was just one thing too many and since the US 60mm is the only generally applicable one to include (Syrians don't use light mortars), and even then it is often firing from off map, we felt our time was better spent elsewhere.

Adjust Fire... I'll check into that. Honestly, there is generally no need for using it so I can't remember the last time anybody has tried it! The US Army has a "One Round Fire For Effect" mantra that is generally pretty much the case even when Private Jones is making the call. So I'll have to see if something is wrong there.

We definitely want voice feedback for both Artillery and Air. Madmatt and I did the script a while back with the help of one of our testers. He's a Marine, but was kind enough to use Army proceedures

Steve

[Hev]

Id like to add that i too have not managed to get arty to adjust fire.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We definiely want voice feedback for both Artillery and Air. Madmatt and I did the script a while back with the help of one of our testers. He's a Marine, but was kind enough to use Army proceedures

Steve

I'll send you an email with a typical fire mission script.

[PSY]

I like the Artillery model, it seems very straightforward and powerful with lots of good options.

I've been trying to figure out the relationship between the FSV and the FO. Does the FSV by itself have good ability to act as a spotter? Is the FO at his best when he's in the FSV?

I've had situations where the FSV can see the target, but the FO inside the FSV can't seem to see it, even if the vehicle is "Opened Up". I assume in this situation, I should use the FSV as the spotter? Or is there a tradeoff between speed and accuracy in this case.

[Berlichtingen]

Weelllll.... since my opinion doesn't count...

I'll give it anyway.

Big freakin' improvement!

[Derfel]

Since I used to be in the artillery I'll put in my two eurocents as well:

The new model is a great improvement, not really sure about the GUI yet, have to get more used to it.

The ability to adjust a fire mission is rather important though, at least in my day (back in the Jurassic)FO used the adjust-commands to react to enemy movement. i.e if the target decided to withdraw the FO would adjust the fire to follow them. Perhaps procedures have changed since then... but I do remember american artillerymen describing similar techniques.

[Bunyip]

One query, should successive Apache bursts not all come from the same direction? I see volleys from the one call to one choppper hit a target from different side of the map if the strike is split accross a minute in wego.

[Narcan]

My only gripe with fire support is an interface problem. I'll click in the center of an area target, then extend the circle to the radius I want. If I don't have LOS to the second click, however, the call gets screwed up.

It still says "Click again to set target radius." Nothing happens if I click though. I have to close the fire support interface and open it up again. Can you remove the LOS requirement for the second click?

[PSY]

Originally posted by Bunyip:

One query, should successive Apache bursts not all come from the same direction? I see volleys from the one call to one choppper hit a target from different side of the map if the strike is split accross a minute in wego.

Not sure if this is what you're experiencing, but with the A-10, I've definitely seen it shoot and then the status on it change to "coming around for another pass" (in the ART/AIR info window) followed by another hailstorm of bullets.

That might explain what you're seeing, or it could be they're just randomly picking a direction each turn.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Derfel:

The ability to adjust a fire mission is rather important though, at least in my day (back in the Jurassic)FO used the adjust-commands to react to enemy movement. i.e if the target decided to withdraw the FO would adjust the fire to follow them. Perhaps procedures have changed since then... but I do remember american artillerymen describing similar techniques.

You can adjust a mission, or cancel it early

[Stirling]

Why no smoke?

Seems essential for a conventional war like this one.

[David Chapuis]

This probably sounds dumb to people who were once artillery men, but I think the art/air model provides me the biggest sense of immersion of anything in the game. So I really like it.

-"cancel" does seem to take a really long time. I dont know if that is real or not.

-I assume some sort of TRP will be added eventually. If so, I hope you dont do the big red bullseyes again. Something more along the lines of the scene from We Were Soldiers where they call in the preset coordinates (I know it is Hollywood - be nice)

[Dirtweasle]

In general, big improvement from a novice / civvie gamer perspective.

A question though; How effective should the airburst anti-personnel rounds be against enemy on the rooftops? Maybe I am not using enough rounds but using the line formation I rake the roof tops and still find the enemy up there in remarkable good shape. Anyone else notice this or just something I need to practice better?

[M1A1TC]

As a RL tank commander, i had to call in few fire missions. I wish they were as easy as they are in CMSF!! Great job, i think arty sim is the best part of the game.

One thing - The Adjust Fire seems to be broken. I need to be able to adjust fire just like in RL, instead of starting a whole new fire mission

[GriffinCheng+]

No, i have tried it several time, but you cannot adjust your bombardment, but you can cancel it in the last time and it takes more than 3 minutes, iirc, to complete the cancel for the unit to be available again. During that period, your target marker is still visible on map.

[Huntarr]

Originally posted by PSY:

I like the Artillery model, it seems very straightforward and powerful with lots of good options.

I've been trying to figure out the relationship between the FSV and the FO. Does the FSV by itself have good ability to act as a spotter? Is the FO at his best when he's in the FSV?

I've had situations where the FSV can see the target, but the FO inside the FSV can't seem to see it, even if the vehicle is "Opened Up". I assume in this situation, I should use the FSV as the spotter? Or is there a tradeoff between speed and accuracy in this case.

I hear you there. I want to know these also. FO or FSV? or FO in FSV? Which is better? We need some tech answers. :confused:

Adjust fire is broke.

Love the new system overall! :eek:

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Works great except for the adjust problem.

Need smoke.

[Panzer76]

This one is a huge improvment over CMx1, well done.