Some disconnect between the detail and the scope/scale of CMSF.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Adam1:

Nope, if Steve wants to ban me he can. I've been here since CMBO.

Hey Adam, maybe calm down a bit please. I would hate to see you go.

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[Abbott]

Originally posted by Adam1:

(edit)

How about a CMBB PBEM game? Something small as I have limited time for the next few weeks. Send a setup if you want or I can send you one.

[ September 08, 2007, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Mord,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What are these? LOL so I don't bother requesting them?

No dancing naked ladies. That's out right there </font>

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Adam1:

The rest can circle jerk without me.

Adam, you are more than welcome to express your opinions, but the tone youve used with several forum members here along with the crap you dealt out to them is far from appropiate. I not sure what you problem is but I think this is a good time to go away, take a chill pill and decide if you wish to continue to participate in these forums or not.

If not then no worries, maybe its time to move on. If you do, great, but lets start having a discussion like adults instead of children in a school yard.

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[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Adam1:

Yeah I think I'll leave. I haven't met a virtuous person here in about a year. Bye.

No worries Adam, your choice. If you decide to return all Im asking is that you address others, or as it turns out pretty much the entire forum community, with a little respect. I dont think that is a big ask.

[ September 05, 2007, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[RMC]

*sniff*

[Mord]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

No dancing naked ladies. That's out right there

I think Jon Sowden has that all taken care of! I'll have my thirst for Baghdad Boobs quenched soon!

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Basically, at this stage, the easiest thing to say is that the core of CM:SF will not change. 1:1 is here to stay, 8x8m tiles are here to stay (until we shrink them, which we might in time), the inclusion of RealTime is not going to be removed, increasing the game beyond what CMx1 and CMx2's scope isn't going to happen.

All of that is fine with me. I like the scale. I think it's just right..and as has been stated it can be played with more if people want to try.

Tiles are fine and would be even better when they shrink.

I don't care if RT stays as long as WEGO gets the same amount of respect and affection. I think the two aspects compliment the engine as a whole. But I'd like to see some stuff improved which you've already stated will be, such as the reset during playbacks. A better VCR interface would be nice too.

Never abandon WEGO Steve, it loves me as I love it! (I know. I know...just wanted to say it one more time.)

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Having every unit + the kitchen sink added into a single game will never happen again. etc.

This is where I think some third party vehicle add ons would shine! Though I know a lot of it would be topic specific...but hey...I'd buy twenty five WWII titles from you guys just to get what was in CMBO! I just can't think of one US vehicle I'd want to sacrifice! So just imagine how the German fans are gonna be! (PUMA! PUMA!)

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

What can change is how this stuff is presented. We're going to do a lot in terms of adding more feedback, like Show All Moves that was just reintroduced.

Yes...feedback type stuff would be killer. It's something I kinda miss when I play...though I have found some of it is still there just presented in a different way. The Kill List and Detailed Hits is a must that you've stated will be added at some time, so that is a great start.

Another thing I hope to see added is information such as surrenders and routed troops. I think routed guys disappear off our squad list.

In the future I'd hope we could see our routed guys get up and run for at least a turn. I miss it half the time even in WEGO when they break.

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

QBs are going to undergo a transformation for CM:WW2 that will make them conceptually similar to CMx1 (though not identical). AI will be improved over time, in particular TacAI. Things like that will happen.

When it comes time to start in on these things we'll have discussions here to flesh out the basic concepts, but that time isn't here yet.

Steve

I can't wait! The future is bright.

Mord.

P.S. This was the short version I had to edit myself from getting too carried away.

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[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Adam1:

Why would I treat people with respect who treat me like garbage?

I have good friends. I don't need people like this.

Because it is part of the rules you agree to when participating in these forums Adam. I haven’t seen anyone else responding to you in the manner you have in the last page or so and if they have this applies to them, also.

As I said, I have no problems with you disagreeing with others but if you are posting to these forums just do so with a certain level of respect.

[MarkEzra]

Would you mind...You're interrupting the circle jerk

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[Mord]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

Would you mind...You're interrupting the circle jerk

This is what you call one of those long goodbyes.

Mord.

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Adam1:

Dan,

I'm afraid I won't tolerate scum "with a certain level of respect."

You heard me.

I see. Well as you’ve decided to take leave from the forums it is really not an issue either way, so lets leave it at that.

[ September 05, 2007, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Wisbech_lad]

Well, aside from Adam's flameout.

My opinion, so far is in line with Dalem's

good simulation does not imply good game. I'm playing CMSF, but to be honest, not really enjoying it yet. Maybe just because war is hell, and 98% boredom with 2% terror just isn't fun. This is a very subjective opinion obviously. But, yeah, leaving a platoon in place for 10-15 minutes in RT, watching tracer or waiting for arty to fall - realistic as it may be, is not, so far, an enjoyable use of my leisure time. Unfortunately I am back in HK, so golf is too expensive though...

Can fun be patched in? Dunno yet. But I do find red/red more to my taste than blue/red, so when the engine move back in time to a less advanced/ lethal time, I trust it will turn out OK.

I used to have the same problem with modern minatures, couple of times I played. Units spotted = units dead. Bah, give me napoleonics or ancients any time!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

QBs are going to undergo a transformation for CM:WW2 that will make them conceptually similar to CMx1 (though not identical).

Good news on the one hand. Too bad CMSF won't get the treatment. Oh well, looks like I will be back. Eventually.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Abbott:

Hey Adam, maybe calm down a bit please. I would hate to see you go.

Don't sweat it Abb - this is another one of those simple things. Sometimes a flameout is just a flameout, not worth expending any effort over.

[Battlefront.com]

But this place is not for me. This is a trash forum now.

What was that line from the movie Payback? Don't poop where you eat, or somefink like that?

Well, sorry to see Adam finally tipped himself over the edge. Hope you find a place worthy of your intellectual greatness. I think well struggle on as üntermensch.

Now, where were we before Adam raised the bar on intllectual discourse? Oh yes, we were talking about a A GAME...

Steve

[Mord]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

See big giant post by me...

Mord.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Jon Sowden:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kipanderson:

WEGO would be ideal for operational games.

*cough* W@W *cough* V4V *cough* </font>

[tc237]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Bah, give me napoleonics or ancients any time!

Try the soon to be released Napoleonics mod for TC2M.

Oh, yeah..

Buy JMM's HW:LG too.

[track]

Nice academic depate going on in here with well positioned arguments. Subject matters: bodily waste, genitals and masturbation flavored with personal insults.

If I may interupt you gentlemen with the terrain presentation. It would be nice to see the tiling getting 2x or even 4x smaller at some point. It would propably solve a lot of problems we are experiencing now.

[Battlefront.com]

SlapHappy,

One of the things I find a little annoying is that soldiers who move into buildings don't really seem to be aware or concerned that there might be an enemy combatant some ten feet away from them. Seemingly they are more concerned with finding a good window spot (yes, this is using all types of commands to enter the room). So 5-7 guys pile into a room and then turn to the windows and a few seconds later three Syrian troops materialize behind them and start shooting them in the back. Are these guys blind?

Interiors are simulated, but I agree that there could be better "clear and hold" logic going on with the TacAI. Originally (about 2 years ago, on paper) you had to choose what to do when you ordered someone into a building/floor. The choices were either to Clear or to Occupy. The resulting behavior would be entirely different depending on the choice. This was scrapped due to other issues and Assault was meant to substitute for this. Meaning, if you want to clear a floor you Assault it. I'll have the testing lads check up on this because it could be that this isn't working as well as it should. Distant memory thinks someone raised this as an issue right around the time we were shipping...

Are you trying to abstractly simulate something here? If so, what? I'm not being facetious here, I'm genuinely interested in BFC's take on how close-up contact in buildings is simulated in the game.

Highly abstracted, but that doesn't mean the abstraction is doing what it should be. We'll look into it.

Addendum: This question might also tie in with the question of fighting abilities of conscript level troops in CMSF. I made a mission from the user-submitted "Violet Road" map and used a large number of Syrian conscript troops as the Red side. I was surprised how well they could stand up to my Stryker infantry who were, without exception "Elite" level infantry. i would have thought this to be a sever mis-match on a squad vs. squad basis.

Check out their Motivation. The higher settings act like CMx1's "Fanatic" setting, which means they will fight on even when they shouldn't. Israelis found this to be true during fighting along the Golan. Brave and motivated, but not very skilled and therefore wiped out when fixed by combined arms.

Mord,

I think Jon Sowden has that all taken care of! I'll have my thirst for Baghdad Boobs quenched soon!

He is a Kiwi, so I think you're onto something! Jon, I think we can toss in a naked bottom or two, however I'll have to run it by the censors first (censors = wives, so don't count on it).

I don't care if RT stays as long as WEGO gets the same amount of respect and affection. I think the two aspects compliment the engine as a whole. But I'd like to see some stuff improved which you've already stated will be, such as the reset during playbacks. A better VCR interface would be nice too.

Never abandon WEGO Steve, it loves me as I love it! (I know. I know...just wanted to say it one more time.)

WeGo will never be tossed, no worries there. There are some WeGo things we hope to fix in v1.04 and there are a few more on the list for the near term.

This is where I think some third party vehicle add ons would shine! Though I know a lot of it would be topic specific...but hey...I'd buy twenty five WWII titles from you guys just to get what was in CMBO! I just can't think of one US vehicle I'd want to sacrifice! So just imagine how the German fans are gonna be! (PUMA! PUMA!)

That is what the Modules are there for

Yes...feedback type stuff would be killer. It's something I kinda miss when I play...though I have found some of it is still there just presented in a different way. The Kill List and Detailed Hits is a must that you've stated will be added at some time, so that is a great start.

We're in total agreement.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Wisbech_lad,

good simulation does not imply good game. I'm playing CMSF, but to be honest, not really enjoying it yet. Maybe just because war is hell, and 98% boredom with 2% terror just isn't fun. This is a very subjective opinion obviously. But, yeah, leaving a platoon in place for 10-15 minutes in RT, watching tracer or waiting for arty to fall - realistic as it may be, is not, so far, an enjoyable use of my leisure time. Unfortunately I am back in HK, so golf is too expensive though...

Definitely room for differences of opinion. For me watching 10-15 minutes of traces fly beats the 10-15 minutes of dead turns, compile times, and what not I experienced in CMx1. The reason is I don't know what's going to happen next so I'm on the edge of my seat. It also makes me pace myself better, which is something I find more enjoyable. In CMx1 I found I often went through many turns hitting GO! without doing anything, then doing WAY too much, only to redo everything a turn or two later because of one particular event (like the loss of a tank or somefink). I'm not saying I didn't enjoy CMx1, I'm just saying that given the choice between that and sitting in RealTime watching tracers fly while I soak up the situation is more fun for me. It's probably the #1 reason why I find it painful to play WeGo now.

Again, I understand why WeGo is still very appealing to a great many people. So there is no risk of it going anywhere. But it would seem that some of the things that make the game more fun for some make it less fun for others. That's a sad reality we have to live with. We didn't convert many of the Steel Panthers and Close Combat guys to CMBO, or at least at first. They had their ideas of what was fun and to them CMBO wasn't it.

Can fun be patched in? Dunno yet. But I do find red/red more to my taste than blue/red, so when the engine move back in time to a less advanced/ lethal time, I trust it will turn out OK.

That's another thing to keep in mind... the topic is a huge part of the appeal or lack there of. I for one can not understand how ANYBODY could have skilled CMBB, for example, but lots of people just don't like the Eastern Front. To me this is like someone saying he doesn't find sex to be fun

I feel, quite strongly, that much of the underling reasons for many of you guys sitting on the fence has to do with the subject matter. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. The game had a bit of a rocky start and you weren't completely sold on the concept even before you got your hands on it. It's only natural that there is a "wait and see" attitude. We don't have any problem with that at all and were prepared for it since 2002 when we decided to do contemporary warfare as the first iteration of CMx2.

Track,

Nice academic depate going on in here with well positioned arguments. Subject matters: bodily waste, genitals and masturbation flavored with personal insults.

The funny thing is the person who said there is no intellectual discussion going on here is the one that violated the Forum rules for civil discourse by bringing various sexual acts into the discussion that weren't really all that relevant

If I may interupt you gentlemen with the terrain presentation. It would be nice to see the tiling getting 2x or even 4x smaller at some point. It would propably solve a lot of problems we are experiencing now.

The problem is computing resources. Going from 20x20 to 8x8 was a huge thing on a number of levels, especially computational resources. Going to 4x4 basically means needing 4 times as much resources (or something huge like that... you math geeks can feel free to learn me something!).

Our original goal was to do 2x2, but we quickly figure out that wasn't doable. It went up from there and would have been larger than 8x8 except for the Action Spot concept. And that concept was suggested by me when Charles and I met to discuss the MOUT warfare for the first time in detail back in early 2004 (just after CMAK shipped). I used a bunch of Fischer Price toys that were in my parents attic as props and that's when I made my pitch for what were called "Building Blocks" and eventually "Action Spots". I had thought about them being used specifically for buildings, but Charles took it and ran with it because he was starting to realize that there was no way we could do 8x8 without it.

Anyway, the point of that bit of history is just to say that the desire to go smaller was always there, but the computers aren't ready for it. In a couple of years, who knows! The cool thing is that most of the game engine can handle it already.

Steve