Ouch. Tom Chick holds forth on CM:SF

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by rune:

And Panzer misses the point again. He didn't have anything to do with the game, I approached him. There is no conflict of interest.

So he does NOT have his own scenarios included in the game?

Originally posted by rune:

I just find it funny that some people around here are looking for any excuse.

Indeed.

[FinnN]

I don't see how you can say that someone who has his scenarios included in the first release version of the game doesn't have anything to do with it. That's not to say it's biased or that he wouldn't have said so if he didn't like it, but you can't say there's no connection IMHO unless he wrote and finished the review prior to supplying the scenarios.

Personally I think the review at the start of this thread reads like one written by someone who hasn't 'got' the game style and is dismissively negative in tone rather than sounding analytical. As such it's not terribly useful or informative (to me anyway). On the other hand the out-of-eight review seems a bit odd in that it points out negative aspects to the game, but still manages to score it full marks. Although there's a bit more detail in there, it also strikes me as a fairly shallow review. I'm pretty certain to buy the game at some point, as there's a WW2 add-on coming out and I'll want some practice before that, but I'll be interested to read the more detailed reviews that are sure to come.

Have fun

Finn

[Moon]

Many reviewers (and sites) come to mind that have much closer ties to a publisher or publishers than what Panzer is aiming at here. James has made a bunch of maps in the process of testing the game, and emailed them to us. Rune turned some of them into QB maps. That's where the tie-in ends. If this makes him biased or not, I don't know.

But this whole discussion is beside the point. This isn't a war of reviewers, and I don't know why Panzer is trying to turn it into one? You're getting a bit ahead of yourself. Let's wait for the reviews? So far what we have is a bit of an unlucky situation in that some reviewers apparently got the wrong game versions, and drew premature conclusions from that. Their conclusions (at least some of them; Steve pointed out a few that do not fall into this category as far as we're concered) may well be correct based on what they saw. But it's not what customers will see when they play the demo, or the release version.

So how about if we stop talking about the messager even before he delivered the (full) message?

Martin

[Mord]

PLAY THE FRIGGIN' DEMO AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS!

Mord.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mord:

PLAY THE FRIGGIN' DEMO AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS!

Mord.

About time you showed up, you little chimp. Pre-order yet? Or are you taking the coward's way out?

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Mord:

PLAY THE FRIGGIN' DEMO AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS!

Mord.

Thanks for saying what I have been thinking.

[Mord]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

About time you showed up, you little chimp. Pre-order yet? Or are you taking the coward's way out?

Worse than that. I am flat broke and my knees are worn out...so I have away work lined up and won't even be able to take the coward's way until I return...I leave tomorrow...God hates me.

Mord.

[Mord]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Thanks for saying what I have been thinking.

You are welcome...and I purposefully left out the part about the cub scouts and the dill pickles...that stays between us!

Mord.

[CaptainBly]

by Moon...I just played a QB where the AI, following a very generic AI plan, flanked (and spanked) me real good.

I need some clarification here. Moon implies there are QUICK BATTLES, yet, I have read in the reviews there are NO RANDOM MAPS...so, does that mean Quick Battles are played on ingame prebuilt maps and there is no engine/feature to create any random maps like the old CMx games?

Also, if no random maps...why? ANd will there be random maps in future modules like the WWII ones that are due next?

[TheVulture]

As I've said in another thread, companies who wish to do so can buy good reviews. They can (literally) buy places in the sales charts for games. These sorts of things stopped being about reflecting the quality of the game for the benefit of gamers some time ago. They are almost purely extensions of the advertising and hype-market designed to generate sales - a tool used by companies and nothing more.

There are exception of course, particularly in more niche markets like wargaming, and there will always be reviewers who give honest opinions on games (particularly in the age of the internet).

But to echo Mord - buy the game, make up your own mind (or in my case, get the demo, see if my machine has a prayer of running the game, and make up my own mind).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by CaptainBly:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> by Moon...I just played a QB where the AI, following a very generic AI plan, flanked (and spanked) me real good.

I need some clarification here. Moon implies there are QUICK BATTLES, yet, I have read in the reviews there are NO RANDOM MAPS...so, does that mean Quick Battles are played on ingame prebuilt maps and there is no engine/feature to create any random maps like the old CMx games?</font>

[CaptainBly]

Welp there goes 3000+ sales down the tubes then. Thanks for the info.

[Moon]

Also, if no random maps...why?

Because the complexity of an average map increased several times from what you see in CMx1. While the random map generator in CMx1 did a fairly decent job to create ok maps for a quick battle, coding something that would achieve the same for CMSF with its much finer grid and a lot more options is a non-trivial task that would alone take a lot of time to accomplish.

Will there be one in the future? Could well be.

Martin

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by CaptainBly:

Welp there goes 3000+ sales down the tubes then. Thanks for the info.

How did you come up with that figure? Were you going to buy 3001 copies for your own use?

[Razer]

WOMG WE CAN'T HAVE RANDOM MAPS ANYMORE, OMG AND OH MY GODS!

But think of the things YOU WILL get instead.

MUCH more complex maps with dynamic objectives and several different AI plans! So, let's see here, you are whining about the loss of random maps vs more complex and dynamic maps?

Now don't get me wrong, random maps are great. Hopefully we'll see a generator in the future. But for now, just enjoy the vastly superior maps 'n missions that are handcrafted to be a blast!

[Michael Dorosh]

I really miss the random map generator, even if it did generate some howlers on occasion - the repeating figure 8 road grid was about the worst of it. But having played with the new editor and seen the number of contour levels (big difference between 20 and 200) and complexity of building details, I'm not surprised that BF.C opted to hold off on this feature.

There are lots of guys who live to make maps; I am hoping that there won't be a shortage of them out in the community. The new options we have means that making them is a lot more fun and the results are, frankly, more eye-catching than before.

And frankly, too - if it means we all start to play QBs on named maps and start to talk about them a bit more, it goes back to the idea of shared experiences I waxed philosophic about in an earlier post. I think that's a good thing. I still hope to see the random map generator, but only because I personally used it as the basis for creating homemade maps - not as a substitute for them.

[rune]

James did not know until AFTER the preview he wrote, and did not know what maps I used till he was writing the review. I approached him not the other way around, and glad to see you got it.

Moon summed it up better then I could, will leave it on that note.

Rune

Originally posted by FinnN:

I don't see how you can say that someone who has his scenarios included in the first release version of the game doesn't have anything to do with it. That's not to say it's biased or that he wouldn't have said so if he didn't like it, but you can't say there's no connection IMHO unless he wrote and finished the review prior to supplying the scenarios.

Finn

[ChrisND]

In some ways I'm glad it's gone. Playing CM with other people, it was ALL they would freakin. Freakin medium hills medium woods over and over and over and over and over again!!!

[MarkEzra]

Hi CaptBly: I sincerely doubt you are correct. The computer generated map NEVER could stand comparison to a decent player made map. A large number of QB maps for all the CMx1 games have been made. As a QB intensive player, I stopped using the generated map in favor of Gamer Community designed maps. It has already been noted that a good supply of QB maps will be included in CMSF and you know the community isn't exactly lazy about producing them by the bushel load for us QB fans. No reason for sales to suffer

[dan/california]

Then there is google earth, which can give a good enough place to start, and when some one says but where the ^&^$^$**(( did you get that from you just give them latitude and longitude. I think it is so cool that I upgraded to a paid account with google to be able access more groggy goodness. :cool:

Now if Charles will just get cracking on that direct pass thru from google earth to the editor things can really get rolling.

Please don't erase my hard drive Charles, its a joke , I swear, really! :eek:

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

Hi CaptBly: I sincerely doubt you are correct. The computer generated map NEVER could stand comparison to a decent player made map. A large number of QB maps for all the CMx1 games have been made. As a QB intensive player, I stopped using the generated map in favor of Gamer Community designed maps. It has already been noted that a good supply of QB maps will be included in CMSF and you know the community isn't exactly lazy about producing them by the bushel load for us QB fans. No reason for sales to suffer

Quite correct Mark.

I recall playing Sid Meiers Gettysburg over and over and over. It had what amounted to QBs but they reused the same terrain from the "official" scenarios. Frankly, playing a battle in which Little Round Top was unoccupied and between two completely different forces made it a whole different fight.

While it would be nice to have random maps (and Moon has hinted that this might be possible) I don't think we're going to miss them as much as people think.

Joe

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by dan/california:

Then there is google earth, which can give a good enough place to start, and when some one says but where the ^&^$^$**(( did you get that from you just give them latitude and longitude. I think it is so cool that I upgraded to a paid account with google to be able access more groggy goodness. :cool:

Now if Charles will just get cracking on that direct pass thru from google earth to the editor things can really get rolling.

Please don't erase my hard drive Charles, its a joke , I swear, really! :eek:

I thought of that too Dan and in many sections of Syria you can zoom in quite nicely and get some excellent layouts for maps.

What advantages does the paid account provide for that?

Joe

[rune]

Actually we used Google Earth quite a bit. I used it quite extensively on some battles int he campaign, and I KNOW the other guys did too.

Rune

[dan/california]

Google Earth Plus features the following enhancements:

Faster performance - enhanced network access

GPS data import - read tracks and waypoints from select GPS devices

Note 1: Verified support for Magellan and Garmin devices only

Note 2: Does not support export of tracks or waypoints to a GPS

Higher resolution printing - greater than screen resolution

Customer support via email - not just website

Annotation - draw outlines and shapes

Import - read address points from .CSV files

Straight from the Google earth web site. The band width and the printing are the parts I really notice, and you can print with the annotations. This will, if they will ever get the game out ,

Let you think about the beginnings of the scenario while in Google earth and then print something to work from while in the CMSF editor.

I just made a joke/request in the refresh monkey thread about Charles needing to get busy on direct pass thru of GE data to the editor.

[J Ruddy]

<font size = 24 color = red>im in ur base trashing ur game!</font>