Ouch. Tom Chick holds forth on CM:SF

[Childress]

Originally posted by Dr. Zoidberg:

Well, in all fairness, it's not accurate to assert that Tom is a died-in-the-wool RTS man. Here's a gushing review of CMBB he wrote back when:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/combatmissionbtb/review.html?page=1

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Childress:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dr. Zoidberg:

Well, in all fairness, it's not accurate to assert that Tom is a died-in-the-wool RTS man. Here's a gushing review of CMBB he wrote back when:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/combatmissionbtb/review.html?page=1 </font>

And the review fixates for the first para on the graphics, including nonsense like "the foliage is more complex" - whatever that means.

Tom Chick is apparently about getting a scoop out on the net; see my post above. That may be the way of the biz. I'd like to see him follow the action for a couple of months and keep his readers updated on the patches. Did he bother to do that with CM:AK or CM:BB, or did he just report on his advance copy and then move on to the next scoop?

[JohnCalvin]

The first time I ever looked at CM, I thought, "This game is horrible. Look at those graphics. How in the world could they sell this like this? And how in the world can someone possibly like this. I mean, three soldiers? This doesn't LOOK REAL at all."

What I didn't know and didn't realize is what was occurring behind the graphics. Then, one day I came across this review....

http://www.strategy-gaming.com/reviews/combat_mission_2/index.shtml

Not only do I consider this to be one of the best reviews ever written on any game, it opened my eyes and made me see what CM was all about. The problem wasn't with the sim, it was with me. Looking for another RTS, CM was horrible. When I realized what it was trying to be, my appreciation and admiration grew.

There are some things that take time to appreciate, like certain foods or types of music. They take patience and even failure, and in time, you are rewarded for both. CM was that in wargames.

As far as this review goes, it is difficult to tell what to make of it. Usually I look for common themes in previews and reviews. If I keep hearing the same thing over and over again, it usually means I'll have a similar opinion.

But Battlefront deserves more based on their history, commitment to history and obvious desire to have their patrons use their brains.

So, later tonight, when I return home, I will pre-order this new sim. This review may have some points, I don't know. But BF has a proven history and this is their jewel. So that trust will make me take the plunge.

[acrashb]

Pathfinding? Anyone remember tanks spinning in slow circles at bridgeheads in Close Combat? I look forward to the demo.

[SwampIrish]

Originally posted by Bahger:

Well it appears that Bruce Geryk has taken against the game too, and plans to say so in CGW (albeit in only 250 words)

Bruce is just an FPS junkie who doesn't know his hind quarters from a wargame. Everyone knows that all the true wargamers hang out here at Battlefront. I refuse to believe any review that wasn't written by someone from these boards or someone who worked on the game. Especially reviews from hacks like Troy S. Goodfellow, Bruce Geryk, and Tom Chick.

Hey Tom Chick wrote the manual for Galciv 2 didn't he? He shouldn't be reviewing any game that is in direct competition with one that he is working on!!! they are both turn-based...well they are both strategy games anyway.

[InvaderCanuck]

Originally posted by Moon:

Slow camera panning - I can only assume that the reviewer missed that there are a few ways to pan the camera in the game. You can use the Q and E keys, or the arrows keys, or you can right-click-hold and drag the camera view freely (or left-click-hold to move it).

I can only hope that this is user definable.

I think the whole qwes setup that many games employ is counter intuitive to the classic wasd or esdf system that FPS games have made industry standard.

Nothing I hate more than to have "strafing" keys assigned beside the "forward" key after 10+ years of FPS gaming.

That said, I am halfway expecting the canned response that it would take too much time to implement user defined hotkeys, please prove me wrong ;p

Also, do we have a mouse look at all for Camera interaction? It is one of those things that you can just consider polish or refinement of the UI.

[MrWombat]

Never mind; my sarcasm meter wasn't working

[ July 25, 2007, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: MrWombat ]

[Tactical Wargamer]

Drat so if one has a Nivida Card one should expect issues with the Graphics. I take it 1.02 patch is coming out ASAP?

Can hardly wait no matter what the reviews say Battlefront THE wargame designers on the planet. Hands down. I have supported every product they have published and don't regret one title. Can't say the same though from Matrix Games

[Tactical Wargamer]

Originally posted by RCMP:

Drat so if one has a Nivida Card one should expect issues with the Graphics. I take it 1.02 patch is coming out ASAP?

Can hardly wait no matter what the reviews say Battlefront is "THE" wargame designer on the planet. Hands down. I have supported every product they have published and don't regret one title. Can't say the same though from Matrix Games

[Battlefront.com]

Keys are user definable via a TXT file.

And guys... let's go easy on the reviewers. I for one don't know how so many of them could not have some version of 1.01. Before they actually got their review copies we had an early version available to them. Most of the issues they mention have been fixed or are not really fixable (like CM running slower than a typical FPS game).

A lot of this is deja vous to me. CMBO got slammed left, right and center for poor framerate, bad graphics, and being too difficult to use. We're doing more than the games we're being compared against, so it's like complaining about the top speed of a one ton pickup truck compared to a sportscar. Valid comparison if all you care about is speed and sleek lines. But when you want to go down to Home Depot and pick up building or landscaping materials, a 2 seat Spider isn't exactly what you want to have

Oh, and lastly. We fully expected some dislike of CM:SF by CMx1 guys. We changed a lot of stuff, so it takes some getting used to. Again, deja vous because we caught HELL from the Steel Panthers and Close Combat zealots when CMBO was put out because they weren't expecting something so different. We're going to experience that all over again.

This doesn't mean we got everything right. But it also doesn't mean our early detractors are right either. If one only listened to the negative about CMx1 games none of you would be here now. It's kinda hard to remember a time when CM didn't have shelves full of awards and "Best Wargame of All Time" titles to its credit, and instead had people telling us how much it sucked, but there was such a time

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

The nVida problem was missed by us because, well, none of our testers with nVidia cards had a problem. It seems to be a certain chipset/driver combination. Could also have to do with Vista, but that might be incidental. The problem isn't ours, it is nVidia's. What we are doing is supposed to work. Heck, it works on my crappy ATI Mobility card and a couple dozen others, so put the blame where it should go. Fortunately, this one has a workaround that we can go with. I'm not sure it made it into v1.01, but if it didn't it will be out shortly.

Steve

[grunt_GI]

Well, I for one agree with those that were reluctant to try out CMBO..it took me two or three looks at the Demo before I figured I was smart enough to play this game and I bought it and once I got it, I was hooked. Easy to learn, never gonna master the art of destroying those damn Tiger tanks or clearing that MG42 in the upper floor!

I enjoyed these games so much I bought them twice! (Darn that Quicktime VR support in OS X (not) :mad: ) and was happy to keep the BFC gang in beer.

Two major complaints I've noted and my comments;

* Most of the combat I have read about in Iraq and Afghanistan (Thunder Run, Cobra II, Takedown, Marines in the Garden of Eden, Not a Good Day to Die ) is not the 3-4,000 yd tank duels of Gulf War I, but down and dirty close quarters infantry fighting between small units, so from what I have seen in screen shots and videos, CMSF captures that well and the map sizes seem plenty big enough to keep us happy. I think BFC is right on that you can't get everything perfect (helicopters, asymmetrical warfare) to please everyone and it sounds like they have achieved a good compromise that we can afford.

* As far as the bugs...as I recall CMBO required updating to 1.12 while CMAK only went to 1.3, so what if you need an immediate patch..I can't think of a single game I own that hasn't been patched. What I take away from this is that buying from BFC is the only way to go since you will always get the most up to date version and better support. I have had ALL of my tech support issues solved either by the usual patches or helpful hints in the forum. Clearly the reviewers didn't check the forums or post their problems

As soon as I test drive the demo (because Boot Camp always requires it) I plan on ordering by snail mail, just to have the joy of anticipation (or maybe I will down load it because by then the refresh monkeys will have finished)

Bravo Zulu to all the BFC guys, I think CMSF will win a bucket of awards, keep the CM community happily creating maps and scenarios and allow all of us who have patiently (most of the time) waited for 4 looooong years to get a modern small unit combat sim to while away the hours. And if you could just make an OS X version, life would be complete :cool:

[Lawndart]

There are some great conversations here, I always liked lurking here when activity is on the up.

In my opinion, product expectation is huge. So far some have been receiving this game and don't really have a comprehensive understanding of what it is... but this has been a huge game year and it’s certainly easier to point out what it's not.

That being said, last year I was one of 3 people who brought the Rampage license back to life at Midway. It had a tinny budget and a small developer in Oregon, we are pretty proud of what we accomplished for such a small budget and time frame but we made one key mistake (of many but this one was a lesson).

All along we intended it to be a kid’s game, a little campy, kiddy humor, and off beat with lots of collectables. We always intended to maintain the roots of old rampage but thought it would be better as a kid’s game.

Well despite some fair reviews it was obvious that no one informed the reviewers that it’s was a kid’s game… No reviews seemed to understand that… (We thought it was obvious)

Many reviews were very reasonable but there was a common tend that many missed that we where trying to appealing to a very young audience, and we hoped it would be looked on by reviewers as a pretty decent kid’s game...

Lesson learned…

[InvaderCanuck]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Keys are user definable via a TXT file.

Excellent ;p

[Pinetree]

Originally posted by SwampIrish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bahger:

Well it appears that Bruce Geryk has taken against the game too, and plans to say so in CGW (albeit in only 250 words)

Bruce is just an FPS junkie who doesn't know his hind quarters from a wargame. Everyone knows that all the true wargamers hang out here at Battlefront. I refuse to believe any review that wasn't written by someone from these boards or someone who worked on the game. Especially reviews from hacks like Troy S. Goodfellow, Bruce Geryk, and Tom Chick.

Hey Tom Chick wrote the manual for Galciv 2 didn't he? He shouldn't be reviewing any game that is in direct competition with one that he is working on!!! they are both turn-based...well they are both strategy games anyway. </font>

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Totally off topic here, but Lawndart, you can be proud of that installment in my opinion.

My brother and I both fondly remember playing earlier editions in our younger years (which we are barely out of, mind you), and it was definitely an enjoyable time when we picked up Total Destruction a few months ago.

Bet this was not the place you expected to read this, huh?

Originally posted by Lawndart:

There are some great conversations here, I always liked lurking here when activity is on the up.

In my opinion, product expectation is huge. So far some have been receiving this game and don't really have a comprehensive understanding of what it is... but this has been a huge game year and it’s certainly easier to point out what it's not.

That being said, last year I was one of 3 people who brought the Rampage license back to life at Midway. It had a tinny budget and a small developer in Oregon, we are pretty proud of what we accomplished for such a small budget and time frame but we made one key mistake (of many but this one was a lesson).

All along we intended it to be a kid’s game, a little campy, kiddy humor, and off beat with lots of collectables. We always intended to maintain the roots of old rampage but thought it would be better as a kid’s game.

Well despite some fair reviews it was obvious that no one informed the reviewers that it’s was a kid’s game… No reviews seemed to understand that… (We thought it was obvious)

Many reviews were very reasonable but there was a common tend that many missed that we where trying to appealing to a very young audience, and we hoped it would be looked on by reviewers as a pretty decent kid’s game...

Lesson learned…

[ July 25, 2007, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Zoidberg ]

[Battlefront.com]

I thought Lawndart was talking about Redneck Rampage for a sec! Now THAT was a game

BTW, here is a bit of compare/contrast. CM:SF is a wargame/military simulation. Company of Heroes is an RTS game that is all about blown' stuff up and gitt'n to say I RULZ U! Nothing wrong with either, they are very different. So too are the teams that made them. While it is fair to compare graphics, the less relevant to the gameplay, the less important they are. The less two games have in common, the less relevant the comparision between the two is. We know the games aren't even remotely the same and that CoH is all about the glitz and CM is all about the sim.

How about the headcount? At Battlefront we had the following people working on CM (and at times other projects):

1 Programmer

1 Designer

1 Artist

1 Marketing dude (who does localizations too)

1 Testing and sound guy (who does the web stuff)

about a dozen volunteers and contract guys working part time when they can.

about two dozen volunteer testers

(we couldn't have done it without the volunteers!)

Here is what CoH had to make their game:

Company of Heroes Team (Relic Entertainment)

Producer John Johnson

Art Director Angie Radwan-Pytlewski

Lead Programmer Drew Dunlop

Lead Designer Joshua Mosqueira

Cinematic & Story Director Rob Cunningham

Audio Director Crispin Hands

Associate Producers Raphael van Lierop, Tara Cottam

Senior Animator, Supervisors David MacLeod, Erin Olorenshaw

Animators Brian Judhan, Jody Prouse, Joe Schober, John Geiger, John Harrington, Kelly O'Hara, Mashi Akiyama, Nathan Hocken, Raul Pulido, Richard Sirohi, Stephen Cooper

Senior Artist, Supervisors Nicholas Carota, Roland Longpre

Senior Artists Alun Bjorksten, Kim S. Gill, Pierre-Sébastien Pouliot, Ronel Mendoza, Sandra Vaquero, Sebastiaan Reinarz, Younger Yang

Artist, Supervisor David Clement

Artists Cheol Joo Lee, Cody Kenworthy, Cynthia Lew, Damian Pannell, David Tran, Eli Masi, Ian Guise, Jason Chung, Jessie Daniel, Kevin Craft, Kiwon Oh, Lukasz Szymanski, Michael Mueller, Noah Stacey, Paul Mitchell, Richard Marchand, Sebastien Maingot, Stephen MacDonald, Tamas Szathmary, Wesley Cann

Senior Designers Erin Daly, Quinn Duffy

Designers Aldric Sun, Blaine Smith, Blake Gilroy, Brian R. Wood, Chris Degnan, Michael Echino, Neil Jones-Rodway

Assistant Producers Geoff Thomas, Jeff Lydell

Supervisor, Localization Arnaud Lebesnerais

Senior Programmer, Supervisors Ian Thomson, Shelby Hubick

Senior Programmers Chris Jurney, David Swinerd, Derek Nylen, Remy Saville

Programmers Artur Pawlak, Brian Segall, Brianna Code, Chris Costa, Daniel Barrero, Eric Huang, Erik Pettersson, Fred Kimberly, Jason Chin, Joseph Lunderville, Karl Schmidt, Kris Botha, Michel Schmidt, Parveen Kaler, Richard Sim

Director, Sound Jennifer Lewis

Audio Specialist Derek Pickles, Glenn Jamison, John Tennant

Audio Assistants David Renn, James Son, Scott Rankin

Original Music Score by Jeremy Soule, www.jeremysoule.com

Soprano vocalist Janet Oliver

Story & Script Writers Duane Pye, Paris Qualles

Relic Online Team

Producer Jonathan Dowdeswell

Lead Programmer Cei Gladstone

Art Irwan Kurnaedy

Design Chris Becker

Associate Producer Tim Lewinson

Senior Programmers Jonathan Attfield, Ryan Haksi

Programmers Alexei Polkhanov, Bart Mazus, Eason Choo, Matt Chudleigh

Relic Studio

VP, PD & General Manager Ron Moravek

Executive Producer Tarrnie Williams

Director, Finance & Operations Curtis Terry

Director of HR and Chief Privacy Officer Paula Fellbaum

Director, Design Jeffrey Nicholas Brown

Director, Cinematics Owen Hurley

Director, Technology Thierry Tremblay

Controller Carol Richards

AP / Administrative Assistant Courtney Inman

Administrative Assistant Lisa Caughill, Nicole McGowan

HR Recruiter & Retention Specialist Tara Kemes

HR Generalist Winnie Sin

Manager, Development Tester Matt Kernachan

Senior Development Tester Ryan McGechaen, Lino Conti

QA Testers Ben Geliher, Chris Chegwidden, David Gibbons, Emil Shpolyansky, Jing Nie, Lateef Yang, Luis Moscoso, Nicholas Riley, Quentin Wallis

Manager, Game Balance Samson Mow

Supervisor, Game Balance Byron Chow

Game Balancers Allen Ko, Charis Hoo, Joshua Long, Matthew Watt, Ryan Dullum, Stefan Haines, Tae Yeon Kim, Taylor Fales, Tim Jones

Manager, IT Frank Roberts

Senior IT System Specialist Alvin Chung

IT System Specialists Joshua Nilson, Stephen Mirowski, Vanna Tea

Designer Allen Goode, Damon Gauthier, Ricardo M. Viana

Programmer Auday Hussein, Ignacio Costano, Karl Schmidt, Matthew Cairns, Peter Yapp, Ping Tang, Randy Lukashuk, Thomas Wintschel

Senior Programmer Cedric Lee, Graeme Anderson, Matthew Newport

Animator Crystal Bonik, Ryan Leeper, Taylor Potts

Technical Animator Dejan Stanisavjevic

Lead Programmer Dominic Mathieu

Senior Designer Jay Wilson

Artist Karol Gryc

Tester Leon Chung, Stuart Chudleigh

Associate Producer Mark Noseworthy

Map Designer Ryan McGechaen

Sound Designer Rusty Dunn

Airwaves Sound Design Derrick Cobden, Jo Rossi, Mario Loubert, Matt Gionet, Steve Smith

Dialog Editors Jeff Tymoschuk, Lin Gardiner, Scott McFadyen, Will Meadows

Voice Production VoiceWorks Productions Inc.

V.O. Direction Zach Hanks

Recording Studio Atlantis Group

Engineer Jaimie Siedow

Actors Amir Talai, André Sogliuzzo, Brandon Keener, Crispin Freeman, Dan Barton, Daniel Joseph, Darryl Kurylo, Dave Wittenberg, Fred Tatasciore, Grant Albrecht, Greg Sims, Hans Tester, James Horan, James Patrick Stewart, Kai Wulff, Keith Ferguson, Keith Szarabajka, Kenn Michael, Kirk Thornton, Matt Lindquist, Michael Beattie, Mischa Pfister, Nolan North, Patrick Gallagher, Phillip Proctor, Steven Jay Blum, Yuri Lowenthal

Opening Cinematic By Blur

THQ Inc.

Executive Vice President Worldwide Studios Jack Sorensen

Executive Vice President Worldwide Publishing Kelly Flock

Senior Vice President, Product Development Steve Dauterman

Director, Product Development Richard Browne

Creative Director Sean Dunn

Associate Creative Manager David Langeliers, Sean C. Heffron

Senior Vice President Worldwide Publishing Bob Aniello

Director Global Brand Management Kevin Kraff

Brand Manager Lin Leng

Vice President, Corporate Communications Liz Pieri

Media Relations Manager Rob Cassel

Media Relations Coordinator Craig Mitchel

Legal Brandy Carillo, Deborah Fingerman, Jenni Carlson, James Kennedy

Director ? Creative Services Howard Liebeskind

Creative Services Manager Kirk Somdal

Video Production Manager Christopher Folino

Video Production Coordinator Melissa Rivas

Instruction Manual Copy Off Base Productions

Packaging Design Ayzenberg Group

Senior Global Localization Manager Amy Small

European Localization Director Susanne Dieck

European Localization Engineer Bernd Kurtz

Localization Manager - Japan Arnaud Frey

Localization Test Supervisor Erik Ellicock

European Localization Technician Andreas Herbertz

Director Quality Assurance Monica Vallejo

QA Managers Mario Waibel, Michael Motoda

Tester Supervisors David Sapienza, Lorena Villa

Test Leads Jonathan Bloch, Luis R. Sanchez, Sean Jenkinson, Warren Wong

Testers Adam Blais, Ali Taher, Arik Garry, Brillmond Tan, Carlos Aguilar, Chris Leippi, Christina Ownby, Christopher Velez, Damian Geza von Horeczky, Dan Nelson, David M. Andorka, Dominic LoBue, Eric Deerson, Galen Foard, German Sanchez, James Gambill, James Ritchie, Jim Ryan, John Padovan, John Schwabl, Jose Castaneda, Joseph Charette, Josh Yarnold, Kayron Moore, Kelly Costanza, Lauren Peck, Matt Oldfield, Matthieu Roussotte, Myka Kairs, Natasha Clarke, Neale Johnson, Peter La, Robert Cota, Robert Yeomans, Rory O'Donnell, Rory Oleson, Roy Galland, Ryan Johnson, Ryan Recto, Selvin Wright, Steven Malloy, Trever Fong, Sean Weske

PC Supervisor Jim Krenz

QA Technicians David Wilson, Richard Jones

Mastering Lab Technicians Anthony Dunnet, Glen Peters, Heidi Salguero, T. Ryan Arnold

Database Applications Engineers Brian Kincaid, Jonathan Gill

Game Evaluation Team Chris Emerson, Eric Weiss, Matt Elzie, F. Scott Frazier

QA Localization Testers Alen Hadzihasanovic, Florian Hülseyz, Nicolas Martinez, Unai Gomez

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I thought Lawndart was talking about Redneck Rampage for a sec! Now THAT was a game

Perfect for the chillens', no doubt.

I find it difficult to believe that you're here telling us that Battlefront has not contracted out (I assume) a Soprano vocalist. What is Moon doing for the company?!

Do you guys even know how to make games? Honestly.

PS: Kind of refreshing to hear you say nothing is wrong with the "im in ur base killin ur doods" genre. I enjoy Company of Heroes quite a bit, as well as Starcraft and a variety of other games in many genres.

But enough about that, I think I hear an angry mob chanting my name. Fortunately they're grogs, who I assume are old and feeble.

[ July 25, 2007, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Zoidberg ]

[PFMM]

Uh-huh. Are you certain you're in the right business?

[Capt. Toleran]

I kinda feel sorry for Tom, though his review was just horrible. That HEAT comment said it all -- clearly not a grog or a real war gamer.

Maybe he's used to this happening, but I think this will be the day he lost a lot of credibility with a certain niche of the PC gaming consumer base.

So, the count -- 3 non-grogs, 3 crappy reviews (assuming Bruce posts his negative review), and a bunch of great ones from grogs. Gee, wonder who I should listen too....

C'mon Friday, get here already!!!

[dima]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

1 Programmer

With all due respect, you shouldn't call Charles a "programmer". Based on the fact that he mainly by himself wrote all the code I'd say "brilliant architect and exceptional software engineer" is a bit more close. The guy is so talanted and unique there are are very few like him in this day and age in any software development field.

Disclamer: I write software for a living myself.

[Battlefront.com]

I agree with your correction Dima

Dr. Zoidberg,

I absolutely love good FPS games and, occassionally, an RTS. In fact, to clear my head I use an old copy of Battlefield 2 Demo. I've been doing that for months. I like getting 50+ kills on Veteran level. Makes me feel like a man! Oh, sorry... Da Man

Haven't played a RTS game I've liked in a very long time. I don't play games much anymore anyway. Too much time spent making the stupid things!

Steve

[Troy Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

I kinda feel sorry for Tom, though his review was just horrible. That HEAT comment said it all -- clearly not a grog or a real war gamer.

Maybe he's used to this happening, but I think this will be the day he lost a lot of credibility with a certain niche of the PC gaming consumer base.

So, the count -- 3 non-grogs, 3 crappy reviews (assuming Bruce posts his negative review), and a bunch of great ones from grogs. Gee, wonder who I should listen too....

C'mon Friday, get here already!!!

Bruce Geryk is a non-grog? He's the groggiest.

[Battlefront.com]

I've got to agree that Bruce can't be classifed as a "non-grog". I might not go as far as Troy and call him the "groggiest", but he certainly knows his way around more wargames than most people on this Forum.

Steve