A WW2 fan's guide to the CM:SF setting

[Michael Dorosh]

That's great stuff, Erik, many thanks. It's too bad the book isn't in English; I run the website at www.calgaryhighlanders.com and have a page devoted to Groningen - but it is lean on details. http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/history/groningen.htm

I wasn't aware of the presence of Hermann Goering troops in the city.

Really, after CM:SF, would love to see a CM type game focussed on Groningen...

If you have any photos or detailed order of battle info you wanted to share, I'd certainly credit you for the information on the website; you can email me at madorosh@shaw.ca if you like - many thanks for the interesting posts here.

[Sergei]

Is this the modern warfare fan's guid to the WW2 setting, all of a sudden? :confused:

I was going to ask a question - what kind of protection against an AK-47 does the current US infantry body armour provide? Does the chest armour stop a 7.62mm bullet from all ranges? And helmets?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Really, after CM:SF, would love to see a CM type game focussed on Groningen...

Yes - on MATT Groeningen.

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Is this the modern warfare fan's guid to the WW2 setting, all of a sudden? :confused:

I was going to ask a question - what kind of protection against an AK-47 does the current US infantry body armour provide? Does the chest armour stop a 7.62mm bullet from all ranges? And helmets?

Helmets and combat vehicle crewman helmets have been proven to stop the 7.62mm Warsaw Pact rounds. Likewise for the Interceptor body armor, which uses ceramic plates. There are many, many instances of soldiers taking a round or two to the chest and getting right back up. I can also provide a video of a soldier being shot and jumping right back up.

I don't know about specific ranges, but from what I know about combat over there, it's very likely that the helmets and body armor can stop rounds fired from as close as 50m.

Older body armor systems, like the PASGT, do not provide protection against anything more than a pistol round or shrapnel.

[Sergei]

Hmm. Sounds like a problem for balance, unless Syrians sport some 12.7mm modification of Kalashnikov... Syrian army probably doesn't have body armours?

[hellfish]

I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of Syrian troops with body armor, but I suspect it was more like flak vests than actual bullet-resistant vests.

[Michael Dorosh]

Stopping bullets is one thing; absorbing enough of the blow to prevent broken bones and internal injuries is another...no?

[hellfish]

From what I've seen and heard, the Interceptor often only leaves only bruising when hit. I'm sure that there've been some broken ribs, but I imagine that depends on several factors.

[MikeyD]

If we assume Syria gets body armor by 2007 then somebody's going to have to do a bit of research on current commercial Russian body armor!

It sounds like the Red Team forces are going to be a mix, from elite Syrian Specal Forces to rag-tag militia groups. Any bet on which will get supplied with body armor?

[hellfish]

The scruffy yet lovable street urchins?

[juan_gigante]

Or the rich kids in the camp across the lake?

[JonS]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Helmets and combat vehicle crewman helmets have been proven to stop the 7.62mm Warsaw Pact rounds.

My understanding of this is that, while true, you also want to get yourself a new helmet. Quickly. The integrity of the helmet is destroyed stopping the first round, and it's ability to stop subsequent rounds drops dramatically.

Also, I imagine that absorbing the momentum of a round with your headdress gives one a rather stiff and sore neck

[Wisbech_lad]

Great, but how about the Strykers?

Infantry Stryker = Kangaroo, with maybe some Staghound AA thrown in to simulate the 0.50 cal?

MGS = Priest with almost no ammo, or Staghound/AEC with 75mm gun...

All "elite" to take account of the comms equipment.

Yes, attacking a village with elite, but fragile, forces, would be a challenge in CMAK. Esp if the opfor has some PZIV's

[Battlefront.com]

One of the troubling things is armor piercing ammo has shown up a few times.

Once the armor/helmet is hit you want to trade it in for new ones. Composite Kevlar is more like super tough fiberglass. When it is compromised I'm pretty sure that analogy holds true.

I have not confirmed Syrians having body armor. Frag vests seem to be around in extremely small quantities. These things are EXPENSIVE so it is no surprise that they aren't around in large numbers. They also still use steel helmets for the same reason. I'm pretty sure the cost of armoring a US Soldier is close to $1000. To put that into perspective, Syrian Gross Domestic Product per capita is about the same amount. That means that one Syrian needs to work a whole year to come up with the money to equip one soldier with body armor. Obviously this is an overly simplistic cacluation, but it underscores the problems Syria faces in terms of procurement.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

"I'm pretty sure the cost of armoring a US Soldier is close to $1000. "

By that you mean body armour alone not counting the cost of any other equipement?

-tom w

[Michael Dorosh]

Body armour isn't a "must have" though, Steve.

I still have to wonder; if someone is shot in the body armour, is it not possible they would still be evacuated through the casualty chain? What is the SOP in situations like that? Does the guy just walk it off? Get checked by the medics for evidence of internal injuries?

[lucero1148]

When it comes to deciding who wins a battle in CMSF. If the US player suffers 30% casualties in a battle would he be considered court martial material or a demotion? With the pyschological aspect of trying to limit casualties to as low as possible a commander losing x number of KIA and WIA might actually lose a battle?

Patrick

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

"I'm pretty sure the cost of armoring a US Soldier is close to $1000. "

By that you mean body armour alone not counting the cost of any other equipement?

-tom w

Yep. A looooot of soldiers aren't happy about having to buy it instead of it being issued.

[MikeyD]

" If the US player suffers 30% casualties in a battle would he be considered court martial material or a demotion?"

Ah, I'm reminded of the oooold Red Baron flight sim where after each mission there'd be a ceremony with medals and promotions handed out. If CM:SF is doing campaigns maybe particularly good or bad showings may trigger after-battle newspaper write-ups or reprimands or medals (especially purple hearts). If, like in some CM1 games, a single unit racks-up most of a game's kills perhaps a Bronze Star can be awarded! I remember awhile ago BFC was against quick field promotions in games. They said it hasto take more than a few successful company-size skirmishes to make it to Field Marshal!

[Splinty]

As a former U.S. Infantryman, who was active-"duty in 1992, I can tell you that these assumptions are based on draftees from pre 1973, not the volunteer Army. These days the higher quality folks tend to show up in combat arms,they join for the challenge, not just to get out of the house. The middle/low quality folks join up for a job or the benefits and seem to end up as rear echelon types."

I have re-read my last post and I think I came off a little harsher on Service and Support troops than I meant to sound. By no means do I mean all LoC/rear area troops low grade or even most of them. I merely meant that combat arms tend to attract more adventurous types and support jobs attract people who are looking for skills training or furthering their education.

[Dryfear]

Good information! I have to say that I didn't even balk when I read their next game wasn't set in WW2. I figured they'd want to do something different.

I might even pick this game up, just to support the devs...even though I'm not enthusiastic about a modern simulation. This game might change my mind!

[Dryfear]

Originally posted by Erik Springelkamp:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

As I recall, the big holdouts in the centre of Groningen were Dutch Nazis and not Germans; the Dutch SS had nothing to lose at that point.

But the bad guys were some elements of the SS-Herman Goering Division and Germaanse SS in Nederland (the Dutch guys).</font>

[flamingknives]

Regarding Body armour, while the modern stuff will stop 7.62x39mm rounds - the famous Kalashnikov round - it won't necessarily stop full-size rifle rounds, such as the 7.62x54R round which is used in fSov sniper rifles and GPMGs. 7.62x51mm NATO rounds will also get through.

There are some inserts that will defeat up to three of these higher-power projectiles, but these are correspondingly heavy.

Furthermore, only the torso is armoured in most cases, so a hit to the extremities will still be potentially incapacitating.

The kevlar materials and ceramic inserts all stop the bullet by absorbing energy, but they do this at the cost of their own structure through plastic or brittle failure.

[Battlefront.com]

MD,

Body armour isn't a "must have" though, Steve.

It wasn't before Iraq, but for the US military it is now as much a part of the gear as the clothing underneath. Even non-combat units are required to wear armored vests when not on base.

Steve

[WindyCity]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

MD,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Body armour isn't a "must have" though, Steve.

It wasn't before Iraq, but for the US military it is now as much a part of the gear as the clothing underneath. Even non-combat units are required to wear armored vests when not on base.

Steve </font>