Shock !!!!!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by funkster319:

There are patches / unstability issues and then there unfinished products.

If this attitude of "it's ok it will be patched in a few weeks / months" prevailed in the Car bying forum then we would all buy cars and have to wait for a patch to make them run!

My point being that - Patches are fine but there is a certain level of intial release quality expected.

I'd really encourage you to look at Steve's posts on this very subject - I think they are in the 1.02 patch threads. Not that I think you'll agree with them, and your viewpoint is valid, but I don't think it is necessarily realistic. Of course, if I try and tell you why, I get labelled a fanboy or apologist, so I'll let Steve say it in his own words. I do agree it would be nice to find perfect software out of the box. I stopped expecting it years ago; I'm not even sure I've ever bought a piece of software that didn't require a patch to fix some major component of gameplay. In any event, I'm beyond taking it personally. But that's me; maybe you're right and we need to hold software companies accountable. I think that will only ensure less software to be honest, and fewer developers. As they say, your mileage might vary.

I also have no qualms with giving a cash injection to a company like BFC who have a track record of making changes based on user feedback. Someone else raised the point on the forum that an early release allows for greater input by the end users - there's something to that too, but Steve has other points in the other thread also. I encourage you to read them, and make your opinion known there.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by funkster319:

Thanks Michael Dorosh, I agree 95% with your comments. As stated it was just venting and not meant to be a debatable post. I have read many posts here and acknowledge that many of my concerns are felt throughout the board, however I was simply exercising my right to air a comment - No more, No less and thus I stated such in my first post.

In answer to several replies my position is - I do LOVE tactical wargamming and although I haven't posted before I have been a keen reader of this board for a LONG LONG time. I so wanted CM2 to be the start of the next gen real wargame evolution , as there are all to many shallow COH types out there (IMO) thus the explanation for my "rage" when I found so many issues with the release.

As for technical issues I really should not have to be resetting CPU Affinity, Priority, rolling back drivers, reconfiguring graphics card settings and generally messing about to get games working. I am extremely PC savvy so it’s not a huge problem but still it certainly detracts from the game experience and should not be “Accepted” no matter how good we want the game to be.

I know BFC are pretty good at supporting the fan base with patches etc but I would suggest that they rethink there release strategy and not release clearly unfinished products as it just detracts from there otherwise excellent profile.

In a nutshell - I love ALOT of aspect of this game but feel hugely let down by the lack of polish, missing features and poorly implemented game engine.

I really didn’t want to get into a debate – I just wanted to voice my opinion for future readers.

And now I can begin to hear you more clearly. It a shame you had to fiddle with the game. Runs perfectly for me. On the numerous times I bought games that didn't work I was often told "tough luck" by those companies. I know from years of buying BFC products that they'll work like crazy to resolve the tech issue...

Now please...un-tie Michael Dorosh and set him free...

[ August 03, 2007, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: MarkEzra ]

[Thumbs]

Just to expand on the World of Warcraft example, an entire zone (Silithus) was completely empty for 6 months (or more) after release. And that is probably the highest income game on the planet right now.

I played CMSF for a few scenarios and there are problems, but nothing that is game breaking. I am perfectly happy to wait a couple weeks for another patch before I get too involved.

In the mean time I'll try to simulate CM style missions in ARMA except from a different POV.

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Becket:

For you, then.

Comedy goooold !

//Salkin

[funkster319]

Thanks all for putting up with my rant

I will read Steve's post and hopefully get a better idea of whats going on. Don't get me wrong I love this game and BFC in general which in part led me to my intial outburst (sheer disappointment :confused: ).

I really want this game to work as I agree some elements are already showing huge promise and I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

I know from experience that BFC do care and support it's fan base. I realise that they are not a huge big software company (which in part is why they release such cool games) and I just hope that they can get some more financial support and manange their releases better in future.

Thanks Again for all your support and patience.

Special thanks to MichealD for help and also Beckett for giving me the link to MR Period - Brillant !!!!

[ August 04, 2007, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: funkster319 ]

[Mace]

Originally posted by funkster319:

There are patches / unstability issues and then there are unfinished products.

I think most of us would be hard pressed to identify any game that's been 100% perfect at time of release.

For example GRAW2 PC which I've been playing has one major waypoint flaw that causes the game to drop back into the OS, and this is a product with a far greater budget than CMSF.

I'd rate that more 'unfinished' as a result than CMSF.

So I quite like CMSF even with it's issues. Guess that makes me a 'fan-boi' too eh?

Kewl!

[Hertston]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I also have no qualms with giving a cash injection to a company like BFC who have a track record of making changes based on user feedback.

Stardock is a much better model in that regard, in at least it's up front. Having finally taken the plunge I am both enjoying the game, and see that it has huge potential, but I am under no illusions as to not being a paying beta tester. With Stardock you can 'pre-order', pay, and give that cash injection but it's quite clear what you get to download is the beta, with a copy of the final game when shipped some time later.

That policy would have worked very well with regard to CMSF, IMHO. BF get an interim cash-flow injection, the number of beta testers goes up considerably with no final loss of revenue, and everybody gets involved in that they feel they have a personal interest in the company, the community, and in getting the product right.

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah, I'd have signed up to that happily, feeling like I was adding something in both $$ to something I look forwards to and feedback I'd have enjoyed giving (as opposed to feeling like whining about a product).

GaJ

[Frenchy]

Funkster -

I am using a Dell 4550 bought 4 years ago with 512 megs of ram with a GeForce 6200 and a 1.8 Ghz intel processor.

Game plays fine on my system albeit without the highend look of the graphics. I don't care about that...I want it to work.

Granted there are a few quirks and the other CM games had them also and BFC addressed as many as they could.

BFC will address them in this game also.

The manual in my opinion left a lot to be desired as to how set up works and the lack of an explanation of how the pbem system now works.

As far as I know every computer game that has been released falls into in your description above.

It's a double-edged sword: do we blame developers or a lack of a common standard in the computing industry -- much like there is in the TV industry when it comes to broadcasting?

[Battlefront.com]

Buuuuulieve me, we hear you guys loud and clear. There are bugs in the game, you want them fixed. Since we've released the game we've kept on working crazy hours. OK, not the 18-25 hours a day (yes, we did work through entire days straight), but I still call 12-16 a pretty good effort. Just think in 2 days we work more than most Europeans do in a week (or a couple of years if you know how to milk the French unemployment system ).

Anybody that wants to compare our track record with other software releases... we can find far more important software than a simple game, far more difficult to deal with when broke, and still not working right after a year's delay and 6+ months post release to compare ourselves with:

Vista

A couple billion spent and billions earned didn't get you Vista users a bug free product. But to be fair, we're only trying to simulate modern combat, Microsoft is just making the most important thing your computer could ever possibly run

Two wrongs don't make a right. Totally true. Which is why we are trying our best to put things right. We will, just give us a bit of time. First patch is about ready.

Steve

[pad152]

I've come the sad conclusion that the game isn't broken it's just 6 or 8 months from being finished!

[benpark]

Thanks, Steve. I can see the light through the trees.

[athkatla]

Originally posted by funkster319:

I would suggest that they rethink there release strategy and not release clearly unfinished products

[/QB]

Absolute rubbish!!

[funkster319]

Originally posted by athkatla:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by funkster319:

I would suggest that they rethink there release strategy and not release clearly unfinished products

Absolute rubbish!! [/QB]</font>

[funkster319]

Originally posted by Hertston:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I also have no qualms with giving a cash injection to a company like BFC who have a track record of making changes based on user feedback.

Stardock is a much better model in that regard, in at least it's up front. Having finally taken the plunge I am both enjoying the game, and see that it has huge potential, but I am under no illusions as to not being a paying beta tester. With Stardock you can 'pre-order', pay, and give that cash injection but it's quite clear what you get to download is the beta, with a copy of the final game when shipped some time later.

That policy would have worked very well with regard to CMSF, IMHO. BF get an interim cash-flow injection, the number of beta testers goes up considerably with no final loss of revenue, and everybody gets involved in that they feel they have a personal interest in the company, the community, and in getting the product right. </font>

[funkster319]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Buuuuulieve me, we hear you guys loud and clear. There are bugs in the game, you want them fixed. Since we've released the game we've kept on working crazy hours. OK, not the 18-25 hours a day (yes, we did work through entire days straight), but I still call 12-16 a pretty good effort. Just think in 2 days we work more than most Europeans do in a week (or a couple of years if you know how to milk the French unemployment system ).

Anybody that wants to compare our track record with other software releases... we can find far more important software than a simple game, far more difficult to deal with when broke, and still not working right after a year's delay and 6+ months post release to compare ourselves with:

Vista

A couple billion spent and billions earned didn't get you Vista users a bug free product. But to be fair, we're only trying to simulate modern combat, Microsoft is just making the most important thing your computer could ever possibly run

Two wrongs don't make a right. Totally true. Which is why we are trying our best to put things right. We will, just give us a bit of time. First patch is about ready.

Steve

Thanks Steve, Don't get me wrong I know how hard you all work and the financial pressures of being a smaller dev company. I also appreciate the amount of effort that BFC goes to to support it's fan base and have been a fan long enough to experience your excellent customer services post release etc .

I was simply a little disappointed at the intial release and wanted to express my view albeit a little strong intially - but then getting passionate about our games is a good thing IMO.

[Darkmath]

Just think in 2 days we work more than most Europeans do in a week (or a couple of years if you know how to milk the French unemployment system ).

I feel offended. Go fix yourself with an Old Europe patch 0.7.8.9 .

[shafty]

Bit of a waste of a thread. There will always be one who is 'disgusted'.

I know your point is that you want a complete, finished, polished product straight from the box but is it ever like that? With these sorts of game it is initially a veritable 'patch-fest'. Just be patient it is early days. It will all come good in the end

[funkster319]

1)

Not being funny but I am not stupid naive young boy who doesn't understand the fundamentals of gaming releases. OF COURSE I DON’T EXPECT A FULLY 100% COMPLETED GAME on initial release and that is not what I stated anywhere in this post!!!!!!!!

However it is not unreasonable to want at least a partially playable game without severe performance “LAG” issues (Confirmed Sluggish Mouse issue etc) and without having to mess about resetting CPU affinity and Priority , Issues with Dual cores (Same as with TOW)! That is basic bottom line quality controlled stuff and is the LEAST that I and any reasonable minded person buying a commercial product would expect!

After that, fair enough, I would expect fixes like AI tweaks, UI additions, LOS issues, bug squashing etc to take place via patches.

I will not debate this point any further as anyone with a reasonable un biased awareness should agree that there is unfinished and the there is UNFINISHED!

Unfortunately this game is the latter!

2) This is not a wasted post; it was and is an airing of a valid and reasonable opinion.

[dalem]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

Dale: Don't believe everything you've read. At it's core CM:SF is a REAL step forward in Wargame evolution. To be sure there are teething problems. But I expect BFC is up to the task. Have you forgotten the fire storm of complaint with CMBO?

I don't believe everything I've read, that's why my posts are full of "if"s and "maybe"s. I do believe everything I've been told and that means core features I play CM for are not part of the new CM World. And no, I haven't forgotten the CMBO release at all.

-dale

[dalem]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Who are you and what have you done with dalem?

All this agreement and cordiality is getting on my nerves.

I may have to challenge you to a PBEM fight just to show you the error of your ways!

Joe

If it helps balance your humours, I can admit that I was engaged in a fierce self-abuse session to a crumpled picture of Billy Jean King with one hand while I typed it with the other.

Y'know, if that helps.

-dale

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Who are you and what have you done with dalem?

All this agreement and cordiality is getting on my nerves.

I may have to challenge you to a PBEM fight just to show you the error of your ways!

Joe

If it helps balance your humours, I can admit that I was engaged in a fierce self-abuse session to a crumpled picture of Billy Jean King with one hand while I typed it with the other.

Y'know, if that helps.

-dale </font>

[DavidFields]

I just purchased Rome: Total War. Let me see, came out 3 years ago? It included the sequel, with all it patches of the original game. Cost me only $20.

I will buy Europa Universalis 3 in...maybe a year. Likely will be well-patched, modded, and amazing by then.

But I hesitate to use that type of frugal/stressless strategy with a small outfit like Battlefront. I am considering buying CMSF (and maybe TW), putting them aside, keep playing CM--I have millions of hours still left there--and then coming back in about a year. I hate to strangle Battlefront, but I prefer (there seems to be a pattern) playing the enormously improved later versions/mods of releases.

[ August 04, 2007, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Rankorian ]

[JuanchoPancho]

Welcome to the world of software.

I don't know any games that haven't been released with a ton of bugs. Standard practice for years and years. "Like OMFG! I'm so shocked! It's buggy! Yeah dude, knock knock!" Stop buying software and go find a new hobby.

I've played this game for about 20 hours and only got one CTD.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Speaking of my former Squire, where is he, did you talk him out of buying the game?

Joe

Papa Khann? Why, he's in my house right now, playing Sword of Rome with Lars, Seanachai, and me, right now. In my dining room right now. Rolling dice, right now.

And he's winning, as usual. Fecker.

-dale