New Syrian TO&E thread

[MikeyD]

Giving 'operatives' a high stealth value should sorta be the equivalent to them blending into a crowd. Its not that the soldiers can't 'see' them positioned at the far end of the boulevard but that they wouldn't 'recognize' them, which is as good as invisible in the game. I'm assuming a cel phone-toting operative would be about as dangerous as an abandoned tank crew in CMx1? Besides his 'borg spotting' advantage, capable of a couple close range pistol shots if a team busts unexpecteldy into his room?

I don't know why this lowest class of soldier tickles me. Maybe I'm imagining the creation of insane 3rd party scenarios involving 100 'operatives' vs one .50 cal. sniper team. :eek:

[Sergei]

I think the operatives would be unarmed informers, not pistoleros.

[Battlefront.com]

MikeyD,

The guys you're thinking of are the Combatants. They look "silly" to Western eyes, and are generally militarily irrelevant, but in the right circumstances they can do a lot of damage. They are armed, aftera all.

The Martyrs come in two forms. The ones that are trying to kill with small arms will be easy to spot. The ones trying to kill disguised as civilians will be harder to spot. However, the nature of their actions (i.e. getting up close and personal with the enemy) means there is a good chance of them getting spotted. I also think that players will use them better than they would use themselves in real life. I can't count how many times I've seen/heard of some Martyr giving himself away through dumb behavior.

Operatives are unarmed. These guys are eyes and ears, and sometimes brains, only. They normally do not have weapons on them because there goes their plausible deniability. "Honest, I was just ordering a pizza! Oh THAT .357 magnum, knife, and hand grenade. Those are for the pizza guy. You know how rough they can be about tips and what not." Yup, that sort of thing just isn't going to fly

Tom,

I don't know of any game that handles things the way we are. As far as I know the idea was one part inspiration, two parts persperation, and three parts Canadian brewed Belgian style Triple Seriously though, I'm completely unaware of anybody handling civilian stealth in this way.

Steve

[flammenwerfer]

Originally posted by Sergei:

I think the operatives would be unarmed informers, not pistoleros.

They should be armed with the 'Evil Eye'.

[Tarquelne]

"Honest, I was just ordering a pizza! Oh THAT .357 magnum, knife, and hand grenade. Those are for the pizza guy. You know how rough they can be about tips and what not."

Due to bitter competition with kebab restaurants, the pizza delivery guys in Aleppo are often rather heavily armed. RPGs and MMGs aren't unknown. LINK

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I don't know of any game that handles things the way we are. As far as I know the idea was one part inspiration, two parts persperation, and three parts Canadian brewed Belgian style Triple Seriously though, I'm completely unaware of anybody handling civilian stealth in this way.

Heh. Looks like when the game comes out, I will have yet another thing to thank Brewery Unibroue, and specifically La Fin du Monde (if I guess correctly), for.

[Battlefront.com]

Could be Eau Bénite, but yeah... La Fin du Monde is the usual suspect. Can't get Eau Bénite in the US Fortunately, a 4 hour drive can fix that.

Steve

[Wisbech_lad]

Wa wa wee wa! I like!

Operatives/ martyrs/ combatants do sound a very elegant method of simulating assymmetric warfare. Get careless, and higher chance of getting hurt.

And some interesting tactical ambushes could be designed - sharpshooters to try and button up the US, try and get them to over-react down a street with hidden ieds and martyrs

Presume combatants will be akin to early war russian conscripts - like trying to herd cats!

[MikeyD]

Huh! Unarmed, eh? And I figured you'd probably settle for a slightly armed operative simply to avoid 'sensitivity' issues. CMSF is a game with no civilians, which means everyone on screen is a target, which brings up the touchy topic of shooting the unarmed guy.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Could be Eau Bénite, but yeah... La Fin du Monde is the usual suspect. Can't get Eau Bénite in the US Fortunately, a 4 hour drive can fix that.

Steve

Hmmm. . . I've never had the chance to try Eau Bénite, and I've never seen it here on the shelves in the US, either, which is odd considering I can get all of the other Unibroue products, including the seasonals like the L'Ephemere brews, at proper beer bars and shops. I'm jealous of you and your proximity to our northern neighbor!

Internationalbeershop.com seems to think they can get it to me, though, so perhaps I will order a case.

To return the favor, here's a wonderful Belgian style I tried for the first time recently: a bar around the corner from me just started offering a Belgian Golden/Strong ale I hadn't tried before by the name of "La Chouffe." It ain't cheap, but I highly reccommend it if you haven't tried it before. Amazingly flavorful; grapefuit, white pepper, cinnamon, and yeasty notes jumping around together in a cacophony of taste. . . dangrous, because you'd never guess there's 8% ABV hidden under all that flavor!

Maybe it will inspire you to do something else brilliant with your next CMx2 product.

Cheers,

YD

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Huh! Unarmed, eh? And I figured you'd probably settle for a slightly armed operative simply to avoid 'sensitivity' issues. CMSF is a game with no civilians, which means everyone on screen is a target, which brings up the touchy topic of shooting the unarmed guy.

A way around the sticky issue is to have operatives surrender or simply disappear when discovered since they can no longer perform their mission. I'm sure only the Syrian player will get operatives. I think it'll inspire a lot of players to try the Syrian side.

Looking forward to French farmers in the WWII game. Of course the German player would not be restricted in shooting operatives there.

[Cpl Steiner]

If the guy is spotted, challenged, and tries to run away, shooting him shouldn't offend any sensibilities, regardless of whether he is armed or not.

Which brings me to the thorny issue of prisoners in general. Aside from Martyrs, I would imagine quite a few Syrian combatants would surrender in the right circumstances, whilst US/UN forces will almost never surrender (we all know how the other side treats prisoners by now). This should make for some interesting situations.

For one, surrendering Syrians will need to be searched to make sure they aren't walking IEDs. This will take time, more so than in "traditional" wars such as WWII. Likewise, Syrian weapons lying on the street will need to be secured to prevent them being used against UN/US forces by the local population (presumed hostile).

Just as dealing with US/UN casualties acts as a delay, so should dealing with surrendering Syrian combatants, abandoned weapons, Syrian wounded, etc. etc. If BFC could add in some of these delaying elements it would make the game a lot more interesting IMHO and further offset the advantage in pure firepower of the US/UN side.

[Battlefront.com]

YankeeDog

Hmmm. . . I've never had the chance to try Eau Bénite, and I've never seen it here on the shelves in the US, either, which is odd considering I can get all of the other Unibroue products, including the seasonals like the L'Ephemere brews, at proper beer bars and shops.

Dude, they have something like 18 beers I know the sales rep for the entire New England area and I've even spoken with the brewery's HQ about this (yeah, I like their stuff THAT much). The reason is simple economics. They have about 5 beers in the US at any one time so they don't eat into their own margins by offering too many SKUs to the same people. Better to sell a million beers a year of 5 types than a million beers a year of 10 types. Just so you know, 1837 is another one of their brilliant beers that isn't over here.

Back on topic...

Everybody in the game is a combatant. However, I agree that there are some PR problems inherent in shooting someone fleeing without seeing a weapon. I don't want to have them suddenly disappear because that means they're instantly captured even if the nearest US unit is 20m away. That doesn't seem right. In a war zone the spotting unit would likely fire at the suspect, even though it might not be politically correct to do so.

I think an alternative is to have a simple "Auto Capture" feature tht is range dependent. If you spot an Operative, and he is outside of this range, then you have a choice... chase him down until he is within range or let him go. You could deliberately shoot at him, sure enough, but we wouldn't enable the TacAI to fire automatically. Perhaps we could remove the Operative's special stealth ability for the rest of the game too.

Capturing of the enemy is an interesting point. I don't know what we can do about that. Like treatment of the wounded, treatment of prisoners is a vastly complex and involved thing to simulate. We aren't going to be able to do much with this, but we'll see.

The US may get Operatives in the form of a 1 or 2 man Special Forces team. We'll see about that though.

Steve

[MikeyD]

"I think an alternative is to have a simple "Auto Capture" feature..."

And that's why you people are designing the game not us - you're just cleverer! I wonder if you'll be able to work in this 'capture but don't kill collaborators' feature into any future titles. Free French spies? Of course its modern cel phone technology that gives 'operatives' any utility at all.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

YankeeDog

Dude, they have something like 18 beers I[snip] 1837 is another one of their brilliant beers that isn't over here.

Steve

Heh. if you know where to look, you can find just about anything here in NYC. 1837 I can get here, albiet only occasionally when some beer bar or specialty store decides to run it as a special. Many of the other less common Unibroue concoctions show up now and then as well, but I've never seen Eau Bénite. I've probably just had bad timing.

But this is distracting from the main discussion. . . Looks great. Love the Operative idea. Look forward to seeing some screenies of guys in jeans & sneakers, firing off RPGs!

I'd be curious to know if you're planning to put any particular C&C and/or behaviour restrictions on Martyr units. As you mention, Martyrs in the hands of smart human players will probably be much more effective than they usually are IRL, because players are will probably be craftier about how they use them, and how they coordinate them with other, non-martyr units. For one, perhaps they should be a bit "hot to trot," likely to engage/blow themselves up at the first opportunity, regardless of player orders? Seems to be what often happens IRL. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

As you mention, Martyrs in the hands of smart human players will probably be much more effective than they usually are IRL, because players are will probably be craftier about how they use them, and how they coordinate them with other, non-martyr units. For one, perhaps they should be a bit "hot to trot," likely to engage/blow themselves up at the first opportunity, regardless of player orders? Seems to be what often happens IRL. . .YD

A nice and simple "berserk" rule might be the solution. I know this was in SL/ASL but I can't remember if CM:BB had it (I must confess it has been a long time since I played CM:BB).

A Martyr unit (whether armed with small arms or as a suicide bomber) has a certain chance of charging the nearest visible enemy each turn, depending on a variety of random factors (distance to target, enemy fire etc). Whilst "berserk" the unit has very high morale and generally will not stop unless killed/wounded. This might be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how the player manages his Martyr units but regardless of this would at least simulate the "love of death" these units all supposedly have.

[Battlefront.com]

I am thinking the same thing that Cpl Steiner is thinking. Here's another way to think about it...

Martyrs are magnets and US forces are steel (queue cheezy music, for those of you who know it). When it gets close enough the Martyr suddenly goes from whatever state it is in to a rushed state directly at the steel. And suffers whatever consequences it suffers because of that.

We can spice this up with chances of it happening, different Commands being used, etc. This would mean sometimes the Martyr will do just like you want in just the right way, othertimes it's "oh crap... would you look at that. Idiot. (bam). Yeah, that's what I thought would happen." At least I think I can get Charles to do that

Steve

[Peter Cairns]

Given the nature of suicide attacks, they seem to fall into well planned and almost random.

If it's well planned like an attack then it's more like a boodytrap or combatants with a vehicle that will explode violently when hit, and to an extent could be covered by the game itself.

As to the second type, that seem almost random, I'd go for making them exactly that, random, controlled by neither side and with neither side aware they were in it.

A bit like an airstrike from a plane that saw a target of opportunity, but which wasn't controlled by a player.

If there are suicide bombers around, it doesn't mean that the other units in the game know about them or control them.

Peter.

[Battlefront.com]

Random is interesting, but I'm not sure we'll go that route. It is something to consider, though, so consider it considered

Steve

[Cpl Steiner]

I know this should probably be on the General Forum but it is related to these Martyr units.

I saw a documentary called "Meeting The Taleban" recently in which the reporter met with some Taleban in Afghanistan for several interviews. In one such meeting an elderly-looking Taleban brought in a 15 year old boy wearing a belt covered in explosives, and proudly said that the boy had chosen to be a martyr and explode himself to kill British/American forces.

The lad was only 15 years old. I imagine most of us at that tender age were pretty mixed up about life and our place in the world. It turned my stomach the way the old man who brought in this kid was obviously exploiting the young man's perfectly normal insecurities.

Sorry if this is off-topic but I thought it would be interesting to throw it into the discussion, as a way of understanding what sort of person would become a Martyr.

[aka_tom_w]

WOW

"Looking forward to French farmers in the WWII game. Of course the German player would not be restricted in shooting operatives there."

OK! great minds think alike!

WWII Resistence fighters! WWII will never be the same for the Krouts again in the ETO if the next CMx2 game in WWII simlulates the efforts of the French Resistance (that if memory serves, (I guess that makes me sound "old") ) who were in many cases well co-ordninated and in communication with Commonwealth (British) forces sometimes. I am thinking of resistance efforts the morning of June 6 1944, for instance.

VERY interesting.

-Tom W

[aka_tom_w]

Let the accusations of "gamey play behaviour" fly !!!

I'd be curious to know if you're planning to put any particular C&C and/or behaviour restrictions on Martyr units. As you mention, Martyrs in the hands of smart human players will probably be much more effective than they usually are IRL, because players are will probably be craftier about how they use them, and how they coordinate them with other, non-martyr units. For one, perhaps they should be a bit "hot to trot," likely to engage/blow themselves up at the first opportunity, regardless of player orders? Seems to be what often happens IRL. . .

"crafty human" are you kidding??? This will be the new "high ground" of gamey play....

I hope they play test the heck out of this stealthy operative "thing" because in the hands of a gamey Syrian player, the US will never have a chance in some scenario's. (I hope we see one in the first Demo scenario's they release, with operatives and irregular forces the chance of Syrian victory will be decidedly higher.)

I guess I am thinking that assymetrical warfare in general is in fact the VERY definition of "gamey".

I can't wait!

-tom w

[ January 26, 2007, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Thomm]

I'd rather have a game without 'martyrs'!

Just imagine you play the Syrians and you have to decide where to send your martyrs to blow themselves up ... sick!

Best regards,

Thomm

[MikeyD]

I'm imagining that we'll have some impediment to randomly shuffling martyrs with formal infantry during setup. I'd guess these guys would only show up deep into a campaign after all the enemy tanks are gone and the formal units are dispersed.

But... as a counter to my own argument there were those crazy 'technical' mg-armed truck suicide rushes against U.S. columns as they headed for Bagdhad in 03.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

I'd rather have a game without 'martyrs'!

Just imagine you play the Syrians and you have to decide where to send your martyrs to blow themselves up ... sick!

Best regards,

Thomm

We already have basically the same thing in CMx1, when you send a infantry half squad ahead to reconnoiter the enemy position, its usually, for all practical intent, a suicide mission with a high probability the whole unit will get wasted.

Properly using or defending against operatives, martyrs or IEDs will add an interesting wrinkle to CMx2, as in real life.