Are newer game releases dumbed down? Is it now all about graphics and no gameplay

[Abbott]

I am beginning to become disillusioned with computer gaming. After beginning my gaming with such wonderful titles as Steel Panthers, Doom, X-com, Fallout I and II, Baldur’s Gate I and Jagged Alliance I and II. The last few years I have found nothing other then Combat Mission titles that are worth playing for more then a week or two. Have others and I been spoiled by the aforementioned classics including BFC’s classic releases of the first three Combat Mission titles?

Yesterday I finally purchased a DVD drive for my computer and excitedly installed UFO Aftershock after owning the game for a few weeks. What a disappointment. The game has pretty graphics but is so restrictive in movement as to be almost claustrophobic. I have found this to be the same problem with every game I have purchased other then CMXX releases over the past few years.

The days when moving anywhere on a map seem to be over. More and more gamers seem to be walked thru games following point A to point B thru whatever or "instanced" (Baldur's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights). Thus finished after a week or so of mediocre game play. Or the game has sacrificed one level of gameplay or another in an effort to make a release date (or profit?).

Have we reached the era of computer game graphics becoming so expensive that time/investment by developers towards good gameplay has to be sacrificed? For a game to sell are the latest in graphics an absolute requirement? BFC themselves have had to adopt the “Module Concept”.

BFC has patiently explained to us over the past few months a few details and the “whys” of their new business model. Their explanations do make sense and I believe that many of us if not all of us are willing to pay a bit more for the quality we have grown accustomed to with their products. I personally also like the idea of getting new games or new modules at a faster pace. What I do not want to see is “depth” of gameplay sacrificed.

I do not believe BFC will sacrifice gameplay and this is not a rant. I am asking if others have similar thoughts or experiences with game purchases other then BFC’s fine products over the past few years?

Are up to date graphics the causes of such business choices for many game producers?

Is depth of gameplay and “go anywhere” type map movement a thing of the past?

In closing I hope some other forum members who are much more articulate then I, have had a few of the same concerns and may come along and post their thoughts on the subject a bit clearer then I am capable of. Or in more depth, or with the “why’s” of the industries requirements.

Notes: Please do not misunderstand and believe I think BFC is dumb-ing down their future releases. I have no reason to expect lesser quality from these guys. I also remain extremely excited about seeing the CMX2 game engine after their many years of experience. I expect the “new engine” itself to supply the depth of play I am citing. I am asking about game titles (depth of game play) that I consider “classic” releases and I wonder if we will ever again see such in-depth tiles released by anyone, anywhere?

Notes: I am posting to this Forum in the hopes of generating posts from Steve or another member of BFC and the members of this Forum whom do not frequent the General Forum area. I do understand however if the post is moved.

[aka_tom_w]

And if you expect to play your computer game on the Mac OS X platform you can multiply your comments and complaints by about 100 -1000 times!

I am only playing two games right now. No other games are worth my time. Sim City 4.0 for OS X is not really a military strategy game so that doesn't count (BUT I can play it on my OS X only Power Book so I like to waste my time with it because it is calming sort of)

The other game is CMAK, still played on an OLD OS 9 iMac in the basement, when I have a chance.

Other games? What other games??? they are all crap and not worth the time or effort to buy or download, (where download via purchase is an option).

I would rather spend my time posting and ranting on this forum (perhaps like Abbott ) than waste my time playing bad crappy, boring, predictable video games, (most of which are not available for OS X anyway).

So if anyone out there knows of any great new games for OS X that they like or are playing or would reccomend I would like to hear from them (but that might need another thread because Abbott original post was not about the lack of OS X games, JUST the lack of GOOD games in general)

I agree the three best games I have ever purchase were the three BFC classics! CMBO CMBB and CMAK!

Sadely Abbott, we are a VERY narrow market, I think we are lucky there is still ONE good game developer that takes our interests to heart and still listens and we are posting on their forum. FWIW

-tom w

[wolf66]

I second all of the above said - but you forgot to mention one of the greatest games of all (apart from the CM series of course) - Operation Flashpoint!

[hellfish]

I second OFP - it's very open ended with a very fucntional editor and scripting functions.

I actually buy a lot of games, mostly military/simulations. Some are great. Some are awful.

Some good games in the last few years, IMHO, besides the CM games worth looking into:

Hearts of Iron 2 (I play with the Historical Improvement Mod). I know this game get a lot of **** from people because it's not turn-based, but I love it.

Falcon 4: Allied Force. I'm not much of a flight sim guy but this was suprisingly easy to play plus it has a dynamic campaign!

Silent Hunter III: Great sub sim and also with a dynamic campaign.

Operation Flashpoint: Tons and tons of mods available. Can be a bit overwhelming if you're just getting into it, but there is very little this FPS can't do. There are even dynamic campaigns available for it. There's a new version coming out this winter.

Boiling Point: Excellent FPS/Adventure concept though a fairly flawed and rushed execution, but I still like it very much. Pretty open-ended gameplay.

I guess when it comes down to it, I determine a game's worth by how close it allows me to come to playing a game I would have designed, given the opportunity and resources. I don't like scripted games that make me solve A to get to timed mission B so I can get object C to complete a level. I want to play a game that's fun, not a game that's a big, prescripted tunnel.

One of the games that's not on this list that actually suprises me is Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. It's an excellent looking game that's pretty near gigantic in size that makes a fantastic effort to make a doppelganger of a certain time and place ('94 California). My only, only problem is that the entire game is scripted. You must do X to complete mission Y to progress anywhere and "unlock" the other parts of the gaming world. That sucks. I gave up on the game because I was tired of doing the same pointless, timed car races or motorcycle chases over and over again.

It was fun the first few times, but it got really old, really fast. Which is a damn shame because they went to all the trouble to make the San Andreas world but now I have no desire to see the rest of it because it's not fun to do so anymore.

[Mace]

Originally posted by Abbott:

I finally purchased a DVD drive for my computer and excitedly installed UFO Aftershock after owning the game for a few weeks. What a disappointment. The game has pretty graphics but is so restrictive in movement as to be almost claustrophobic.

Huh? Do you mean on the strategic, world-view, interface?

It is a tad too linear in that respect for my liking, but besides that I think it's quite enjoyable, especially the tactical game.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Mace:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Abbott:

I finally purchased a DVD drive for my computer and excitedly installed UFO Aftershock after owning the game for a few weeks. What a disappointment. The game has pretty graphics but is so restrictive in movement as to be almost claustrophobic.

Huh? Do you mean on the strategic, world-view, interface?

It is a tad too linear in that respect for my liking, but besides that I think it's quite enjoyable, especially the tactical game. </font>

[juan_gigante]

I think that Abbott raises some good points. But I personally believe that that sort of heavily scripted gameplay isn't neccesarily bad. Consider Call Of Duty. Especially in the expansion pack, this is one of the most heavily scripted, follow-a-certain-path games to come out in years. Yet, it is also one of the funnest, most intense games to come out in years. You finish the level, and even though you did the entire thing exactly according to the developer's script and plan, you stil feel exhilarated. While replay value isn't as great, CoD is, in my opinion, an excellent example of how scripting helps a game.

GTA is a strange sort of animal. As fytinghellfish said, it offers a huge, free environment after you do a set of very scripted, repetitive things. Myself, I just got a saved game from a friend who had completed the game, so I could play all the way through the story in one game and just tool around Southern California in one. I had lots of fun with that.

I guess a lot of it comes with what you expect out of a game. I think it's in many ways a bad thing that developers are focusing more on the "small picture" and then force the player to only see said small picture. But, if everything is as it should be, that means that that smaller part of the game is better. Hopefully, it is enough better that it is worth it. I think for a while now that has been a movement in games to become more like a movie wherein you play one of the roles. Whether this is good or bad is up to you, but I'm interested to see where it goes.

[Salkin]

Yeah....I have always thought of myself as a gamer and nowadays I consider myself a jaded gamer .

I also appreciated games along the line of CM, X-COM (I even enjoyed TFTD and Apocalypse), Jagged Alliance, Age of Wonders, HOMM etc etc. As of late I must say I was also pretty impressed with the Total War strategy games. I skiped the first new UFO-game Aftermath and I'm on the fence about buying the second one(Aftershock)I'm getting mixed messages from reading their forums...

I'm 30 years old and have played games since the Laser and Spectrum days and I just have to comment on juan_gigantes post about call of deuty.

The call of duty game and it's 1000 clones are really adrenaline pumping games but when you have been playing games for 15-20 years they are not the games I'm looking forward to most. Something which feeds the brain a bit more and gives a fuller more dynamic experience is usually what I'm looking forward to more. (One of the reasons why I'm looking foward to CMC .)

Granted people my age usually are to busy with family and whatnot to have enough time to put into the type of strategy games I'm looking forward to.

I still play and immensly enjoy games like FEAR but they are definitely not one of the reasons why I call myself a gamer to this day and age. (You know it's not cool to be a single gamer when you're 30 where I'm from . )

The only games I'm really looking forward to now is Operation Flashpoint2 and CMX's incantations (and I'm curious about CMC).

A new Elite-type game would also be nice, I wonder if X3 is any good. I have avoided the earlier X-games out of fear of fiddly combat and much bugginess (I read alot of forums ).

//Salkin

Gamer extraordinaire ...

[Cameroon]

I think all us gamers, as we age, grow jaded with seeing the same thing over and over but with prettier graphics. Probably the nature of the beast, really.

So far the GTA games have been my favorites with the longest replay outside of the CM series. Since I only have the Mac versions of CMBO and CMBB and an OS X-only machine, that's left me with GTA for a game I will pull out and just play for a bit.

The reason that I like GTA so much is, as stated by others, it gives you a very free-form world to run amok in but I also really like having a story.

My ideal game would be able to generate story threads that you could follow through if you wanted, but where you could just wander around in the game world as well. I think it could be done, too, just not with the fidelity available to a human designer. And since a lot of the stories have sucked, I feel they could probably do at least as good a job.

[M1A1TC]

Well, I am 27 single gamer and Otaku, and I am happy. Ive been playing games since I was 7, play on average 6 hours a day, when I am not working or studying. I consider being a gamer a life-style, not just a hobby

There are still good games coming, like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and STALKER.

[lucero1148]

Abbott

I think you hit it right on the nose. I don't see much originality in the new games out there as well. Then again publisher's are into making money and doing something new and untested isn't going to be a popular idea for the money people.

Off subject did you design this Breakout 10th div? Don't know if I got the title right but am playing it hth for the first time (Russian defender) and it's excellent, but I am getting eaten alive despite having good defensive and ambush positions. Basically my tanks may have the 1st shot but the Panther's and MK IV's kill me on theirs. Very exciting though.

All best

Patrick

[Abbott]

Originally posted by lucero1148:

Abbott

I think you hit it right on the nose. I don't see much originality in the new games out there as well. Then again publisher's are into making money and doing something new and untested isn't going to be a popular idea for the money people.

Off subject did you design this Breakout 10th div? Don't know if I got the title right but am playing it hth for the first time (Russian defender) and it's excellent, but I am getting eaten alive despite having good defensive and ambush positions. Basically my tanks may have the 1st shot but the Panther's and MK IV's kill me on theirs. Very exciting though.

All best

Patrick

Hello Patrick ,

Yes I designed that scenario a couple of years ago. I had lost track of all my battles when The Depot crashed and I have been unable to remember the name of that one until now. Thank you! It was one of my favorites and I am pleased you are enjoying it. I will now add it and another I made Destination Lodz to my Combat Mission page during the coming week. I believe those two are the only CMBB scenarios missing from my page that I have completed.

[Salkin]

A thing for all you gamers tired of the same old thing you should really try the shareware-ish game called Mount & Blade. Made by another independent developer. It's not super advanced or anything but it's diverse and a whole lot of fun. It has the best horseback riding combat in any game !

It has been mentioned before though. Do a search in the General Forums.

//Salkin

[Kong]

The PC game market has changed dramatically since 1985, but in particular it has changed radically since 2000. I believe this is due to 3 main factors. The 'average' PC user is much less sophisticated/educated, multi-platform development (in particular developing games for consoles AND PCs), average cost to develop a game has skyrocketed. This has caused big name publisher/developer's to go with sequels (less risky), develop to the lowest common denominator (ie. consoles, so the PC port is usually sub-par), dumb down the game so it appeals to the largest audience. Consoles have also hurt PC development because they generally are much more profitable, both in units sold and profit per unit, and consoles games cost less to develop because of the standard platform vs the myriad variations you get with PC's. Also with consoles there is NO backend cost, in particular I mean patches and customer support.

Computer games are now following the Hollywood model, which means you may get 2 or 3 truly good games a year. The rest will just be recycled rubbish, lots of flash and bang but no substance. But is also means your best hope is the independent, such as BFC, and Freeware/Shareware or open-source.

For you X-Com fans I just happen to stumble on to this the other day, Laser Squad Nemesis , it is from the X-Com creators. There is a trial version, and the full version is only $20.

Edit: Spelling mistakes

(ADMIN EDIT: removed commercial URL)

[ November 13, 2005, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Moon ]

[Kiwi Joe]

Memories, like the corner of my mind, misty water colored memories, of the way we were..

Pirates!

Defender of the Crown

Raid over Moscow

Civilization

Master of Orion

Combat Mission

[Pvt. Ryan]

I certainly got my money's worth from Morrowind, and I expect that the next release in the series will be even better. But everyone wants awesome graphics and a price under $40. That doesn't leave much room in the budget for the actual game.

[NCOIC]

Wow Kiwi Joe, thats kinda scary.

With the exception of Raid over Moscow which I never played, that list of games you posted are all among my favorites aswell=)

Would probly only add Master of Monsters from the Sega Genesis.

And I still really like Dawn of War, but mostly because I'm such a huge 40k fan.

[juan_gigante]

Dawn of War was easily the funnest RTS I've ever played apart from Warcraft 3. I guess we'll see if RT CM:SF will wrest the crown away.

[Michael Emrys]

I strongly agree with Abbott and tom. Kong makes some good points too.

The slide from gameplay to graphics as a primary focus began at least 6-7 years ago, and mediocre to poor and buggier games has largely been the result. As a Mac user, the range of titles available to me is of course limited and my range of interests and likes limits it even further. I guess the only non-CM I bought in the last 5 years that earned any respect from me has been EU2. There are a few games not released for the Mac that I would certainly look into if they were available, e.g., SH3.

Michael

[lucero1148]

My pleasure. This is great because you really have to plan your strategy well for both sides. Nothing is obvious here and i don't think one can be heavy handed here in on the attack or defense. A real thinking man's fight.

It's a real pity the Adm Keth's site bit the dustas that was one of the best sites for getting scenario's from the community.

Look forward to seeing your scenario's for CMSF too. Hehe you wouldn't mind blurting out some details huh? Just kidding will, wait for the official word.

What I find interesting on this thread is that no one has mentioned how much they liked the other titles that BFC is selling. Anyone want to make a quick comment on Down in Flames and how it is compared to other flying games, or T-72 and Strategic Command as games? Hope that's not pushing the limit on this thread?

All best

Patrick

[Dschugaschwili]

Why has nobody mentioned Nethack yet, although it's probably the perfect example of the trend outlined above? No graphics at all, but still way above pretty much every other game in terms of breadth and depth. Almost everything is randomized, so the replay value is almost endless. A true classic that I still play from time to time.

Dschugaschwili

[Thomm]

Everytime I see one of those fantasy game fights where two opponents stand next to each other and their sword-strokes slice right trough each others bodies with the only result being a reduction in health points ... I do not know whether to laugh or to cry!

This is what people buy, though!

Why should investing all that art and programming resources in a better sword fighting simulation rather than thousands of different colorful items appeal to the producers then?

Best regards,

Thomm

[sdr633]

Command HQ. The last time I moved, I lost my manual or else I'd still be playing after fifteen (!) years. (I did find someone who scanned in a page of codes but I could never read the screen nor the printout.)

Other than CHQ and Steel Panthers, I have no other non-BFC titles on my hard drive.

Stephen

[C'Rogers]

As some people seemed to have mentioned above, the flaw with many games today is that they don't seem to offer anything new. Most games are, at best, just updated versions of old proven designs. Even Dawn of War, which I found very enjoyable for a short time, is only really a much updated version of the Warcraft model from long ago.

The problem with these games is they wear off quickly. Steve has mentioned before how a company is lucky to keep customers for two to three months, much less years.

I think the main problem is that strategy games don't (can't) really take risks anymore. It seems safer to just bang out the same old formula with just some improvements.

As an example I will use the Civilization series. When I got Civ II (never played Civ I sadly) I played it pretty steadily for months, and off and on for probably another year. I picked up Civilization IV a little over a week ago and while it was great fun at first I have already grown bored with it and stopped playing.

And the problem for strategy games is that they need to be different. FPS' can repeat the same game play over and over, especially if they are going to be online, as just pumping up the graphics is the major requirement. If they re released the first Rainbow Six (or remade the original Doom) with just modern graphics I'd quickly get it.

RPG games are also in a little bit of a rut, but by there nature they are forced to change more than strategy games, you can't repeat the same story (though some certainly try). And while I can't think of any classics like Fallout, there have been a much better offering of notable RPG games as of late compared to strategy (Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwind, a ton of console games).

Strategy games seem to be in a slump. A couple years ago I sat down with a strategy gaming friend and we discussed what games on the horizon were the most to look forward to. We came up with three, Kohan II, Ground Control II, and CMxII. The first version of each of these games blew me away.

Well Kohan II was a let down, didn't pack nearly the 'feel' and intensity I had found in Kohan I. Ground Control was a downright shame, abandoning many of its tactical elements for a 3D Starcraft approach (which made many people happy, but not I), and CMxII yet to come (which if by some tragedy I was disappointed in I would probably give up gaming all together).

I don't think making great games is impossible anymore, just in the 'major' genres repetition of past classic designs seems to have taken over. The last games that really impressed me was probably Railroad Tycoon III, and before that Hardwar. Both in somewhat established genres, but not so much that there was some set formula for making a game.

That's my general rant on computer gaming today, sorry if I didn't reply to anything specifically.

[C'Rogers]

Good examples would be Fallout Tactics as compared to Fallout I and II. Or Baldur's Gate as compared to Baldur's Gate II. X-com compared to X-com whatever new flavor...Where map movement was a large part of the game. That game type seems to have become a lost art.

I think Fallout Tactics gets a bad rap many times because of what it is being compared to. Fallout Tactics was never meant to be something of a great RPG experience like Fallout, but a tactical game (and one that I would consider very good, if not for its buggy nature).

But your general point is solid and that games are much more straight forward than before (I believe the common term used is linear). Nowadays with lots of video and voice incoprated it seems difficult to justify "side quests" in games. Why waste putting stuff in that players would never see (I am guessing at what the logic must be)? RPG games are becoming much more like movies sadly, with the players having less and less control.