Dust radar from CMAK still in CMSF

[sandy]

Its fine to have _lots_ of dust from vehicles in the desert, in lines where they drive etc etc... I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is that if I am on one side of a huge hill and they are on the other then I can still see, in every detail, the lines of dust!

They haven't fixed this in CMSF either

Above copied the above from a recent CMAK thread, but a very relevant point I have not seen mentioned in CMSF discussions before - it is my impression from a few games of CMSF that that the flawed use of dust trails as a map-wide radar system has been carried over from CMAK to CMSF. Howeever I have not rigorously tested this.

But I would welcome comments that I am mistaken.

[MarkEzra]

I don't know, Sandy, but where I live we can see people coming for miles when they drive too fast on the dirt roads. But of course I live in the high desert of California. a good test would be "Meeting at High Altitude" scen. I don't believe you can see dust clouds from behind the large hill that hides the set up areas. But you do see them when the view is not obstructed. Whether it's perfect or not..ya got me...But I sure know when somebody's in a hurry to visit me.

[hoolaman]

Yep, I think if the dust cloud really reaches above that huge hill, you should be able to see it.

Of course, when you can trace it down to the exact origin and know that a vehicle is *right there* it becomes less realistic.

Maybe unspotted hexes should have invisible dust up to a certain altitude?

[Sgt Joch]

We had the same discussion in CMAK and I believe the conclusion was that it was more or less realistic.

In North Africa, both the British and the Germans used trucks to raise huge clouds of dust to confuse their enemies as to the real line of attack.

[MarkEzra]

Sandy and Hoolaman: You are both correct dust clouds that otherwise are hidden from view are easily seen and tracked at higher camera angles. I'll have to remember that when I'm cheating in PBEM's...LOL. I wonder if Dust Clouds could be coded like a unit is...spotted through LOS? Anyway...good point Sandy!

[Bradley Dick]

If you've ever been anything but the first vehicle in an open country desert convoy, you would probably say the dust is not visible enough.

I think it's fine, personally.

[sandy]

Bradley and Sgt J

I am not suggesting that there should not be lots of dust, nor that it should be spottable from way a way off.

The point is in MarkEzra's post - for a realistic wargame, the dust clouds themselves should be objects that have to be spotted, otherwise you should not know that they are there. Now if the game does this, fine. But I am not sure that it does (or that it does not). I just suspect that it does not and that I am getting too much info from dust trails = dust radar

Could somebody from BF comment on this?

(Actually I find I get way too much info on enemy units all the time, anyway. Fog of war is too thin)

[Redwolf]

The dust is not subject to FoW, and neither is smoke.

I don't have too much of a problem with it, but one aspect is unrealistic:

If LOS is blocked to the ground source of the dust, the CMAK/CM:SF dust cloud still allows you to see precisely where the source vehicle is driving. You can see precisely whether it is on that road or in that gully. Not only that, you see see the direction, and you can see the speed that it is moving at.

The dust cloud, when observed without LOS to the source, should not reveal that. It should be like CMBO's sound contacts that are off (although the sound contacts where slightly broken, too, since they revealed precisely when and how a vehicle turned).

[Bradley Dick]

Interesting. I'd like to go check this out with a hotseat game

[MarkEzra]

I did confirm that dust is spotted by "Gods Eye". Here is how I confirmed: Meeting at High altitude scen as hot seat. I move one Stryker at fast diagonally at the lowest elevation. as Syrian hot seat at lower elevations cannot see dust however hit keystroke 4 and move around and there she be...In normal play mode you could miss it but it's there and it's a cheat...of course both sides are affected...

[MikeyD]

The solution isn't in reworking the game but in changing your method of play. "Iron Man" rules. No fly-overs, no hovering from on high, no jumping ahead of your own forward units to see what's around the corner. Okay okay, i admit. Its rare that I have the stamina to play that way. But playing Iron Man rules in realtime, the game suddenly gets a LOT harder to beat! :eek:

[Pandur]

better to remove the neet looking dust trails behind vehicles from my point of view. or idealy make them invisible when you dont have Los there.

but like it it now is quiet too "practical" to Xray your enemys vehicle movement in your mind and planing by stuff you wouldnt even know.

[metalbrew]

Look for vehicle exhaust as well. The precise location of vehicles can be plotted while grossly out of LoS. This allows perfect spotting even in cities or on grass even while vehicles aren't moving. Of course, this all ties in perfectly with being able to hear the voices of enemy troops on the other side of the map too.

There's really no need to walk into an ambush in the game. Between the dust, exhaust, and unit voices you can determine exactly where every enemy unit is placed or moving.

[sandy]

metalbrew - you are exactly correct, and this what I would like to see fixed.

But of course, in RT play you would not have the time to do all this, because you would not have time to review the map and think about it.

This must be one of the advantages of RT play!

[Pandur]

There's really no need to walk into an ambush in the game.

as far as i observed that also due to the non hidin AI in scenarios.

when i hide my troops and hover over them they dont say a word(or just verry verry rare).

logically you wouldnt hear the enemy talking than when you fly over an ambush position when the enemy would hide.

but as it is there is no way to tell the AI enemy to hide other than by time, so i can understand why noone used it in stock scenarios.

if you can give your troops a hide command and issue a cover arc wich makees tham automaticly active when something comes in there, that would be fixed as they wouldnt yell until the action starts.

[hoolaman]

I bumped this because this issue is particularly annoying me.

The tanks in the game quite literally have an arrow (of dust) pointing to them whether they are spotted or rendered or not.

I can understand the limitations on actually spotting a cloud of dust in the game engine, but as a slight improvement could we maybe have vehicles that are not spotted at all by any of your units not create dust/exhaust effects or indeed rendered sound effects at all?

[Mord]

One work around as far as hearing stuff you wouldn't normally hear is to turn (Toggle S) your sound off when doing fly overs, and map checks in areas where you don't have men...It's not perfect but it's something.

Mord.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Mord:

One work around as far as hearing stuff you wouldn't normally hear is to turn (Toggle S) your sound off ...

Strange, my wife usually does that for me!

I did not know she is concerned about sound FoW!

Best regards,

Thomm

[thelmia]

It's a multiplayer issue. I don't expect my opponents to miss obvious clues that the game provides. It's a bit too precise between the dust clouds and remote hearing.

Good players use every advantage they can. This stuff is an exploit, and it should be fixed.

[Huntarr]

There is a solution to the Dust being seen problem. Stop using "God's Eye". Play only from the "1" camera setting and you will only see dust when it is appropriate. For those that use the "God's Eye" then I don't have a problem with the dust as is.

[Dennis50]

I agree.

Regards,

Gunz

[thelmia]

Originally posted by Huntarr:

There is a solution to the Dust being seen problem. Stop using "God's Eye". Play only from the "1" camera setting and you will only see dust when it is appropriate. For those that use the "God's Eye" then I don't have a problem with the dust as is.

That's fine for single player. You can't play a single player wrong. You can limit yourself as much or as little as you want.

For multiplayer, I'm not going to complain about the other guy doing what the game allows him to do. It's pointless to try, I can't make other people do anything over the internet, and it's an exploit.

[MikeyD]

I just did a quick test. Alter the ground conditions to 'wet' from 'very dry' and dust clouds pretty much disappear. I can only imagine the affect on cross-country mobility for a Stryker. So 'damp' or 'wet' ground conditions are options for scenario makers who want to avoid movement detection.

[hoolaman]

There is also the exhaust plume from vehicles which will not go away on "wet".

I still think there should be a real fix such as unspottable tanks not producing SFX, rather than a workaround.

[metalbrew]

Also, in addition to ground dust, unit voices, engine noise, and exhaust giving away enemy positions: the camera shakes within 20-30m of a heavy vehicle. If you can't spot any of the other dead give aways, lower the camera near the ground and when the unspotted enemy unit comes close that camera will begin to shake.