A few beasts, or a swarm of tiddlers??

[Major Catastrophe]

I'm fairly new (8 months -ish), and havent seen it discussed in much depth...and my question is prompted by a severe mauling at the hands of 10 Panthers in a 5000pt PBEM, now i did take SOME Pershings, but quite clearly not enough.......my question to you all out there is do you personally choose a handful of veteran monsters in this position, or would you have taken great buckets full of Stuarts and M4s....AND, if buckets full of tiddlers is the response, do you have to be prepared to sacrifice some for the greater good, because i love my tanks i really do, and the loss of just one upsets me.....

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Major Catastrophe:

I'm fairly new (8 months -ish), and havent seen it discussed in much depth...and my question is prompted by a severe mauling at the hands of 10 Panthers in a 5000pt PBEM, now i did take SOME Pershings, but quite clearly not enough.......my question to you all out there is do you personally choose a handful of veteran monsters in this position, or would you have taken great buckets full of Stuarts and M4s....AND, if buckets full of tiddlers is the response, do you have to be prepared to sacrifice some for the greater good, because i love my tanks i really do, and the loss of just one upsets me.....

SCREW the Pershing if you suspect HEAVY armour and you are to play the ALLIES you MUST have the 76mm Main weapon and hope to hell you get lots of HVAP tungsten.

Take M18's and and M10's and LOTs of them, And lots of M8's and load them up with 'zooks.

As the allies you do not need heavier tanks, you need lots of light fast tanks with the 76mm main weapon then you sacfrice a few of them to get flank shots.

in a 5000 pt battle against 10 panthers I would LOAD up on M18's (speed and 76 mm) and M8 Greyhounds (speed and 37mm IT CAN kill a Panther with a clean flank shot!) and LOTS of 'zooks, And put them everywhere on every vehicle.

Forget slugging it out with the Pershings they are too expensive to be able to get enough of them to do any good against 10 Panthers.

-tom w

[Redwolf]

If historical accuracy is of no big concern, which it obviously isn't here given the question , people generally consider infantry-heavy forces with HE-heavy cheap tanks to be most effective. Cromwell 95mm, StuH, SdKfz 251/9, M8 HMC, sometimes Priest and Sexton. Heavy enemy armor is supposed to fall to infantry rushes or to guns, or to lack of ammunition or rate of fire.

The exeption is when the Axis player composes a maxed-out automatic-weapon-heavy infantry and heavy artillery force which can completely solve their battlefield problems on their own, and then reinformces with Panzer IV/70 or Jagdpanther to shoot the Churchills, Cromwells and Wasps, or maybe Hetzers when playing against Americans.

Please note that I don't neccessarily support these choices or follow them on my own, I'm merly replaying what happens in games where historical exactness plays no role.

In general, I have to assume from your question that you didn't identify the real problem. On all CMBO battlefields with decent cover neither heavy tanks nor light tanks dominate. Infantry does, and you need HE shooters to break it.

[rleete]

I have to disagree. If this is the case, and it appears historical accuracy is out the window, buy lots of TD's, Sturats and vanilla Shermans. Swarm him. And yes, you will lose some. But 2 Stuarts for every KT is a bargain. Get bunches of armor, divide them in two groups, and rush the flanks.

[russellmz]

try this link for tips...

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013384.html

[The Commissar]

M-18's eat everything. They will devour the jusciest cat your opponent brings to the table and ask for seconds! They are cheap, they are fast and they are very deadly. So what if a few of them die? Console yourself with the notion that they went down for the right cause!

[Arsenal]

Yeah,but a smart player will have 20mm flak/50mm pak guarding his flanks against m18/m8/stuart rushes,either that or he should keep his panthers back with good los to spot any rushes in the making and manuever against them.

If it was me I would probably use the cheap stuff like jacksons along with m8's/priest for infantry or as brits maybe 17pdr a/t guns or archilles.

[Lars]

Don't forget to get a cheap arty FO.

A little smoke can making flanking much easier and less costly.

[flamingknives]

17pdrs! 17pdrs! 17 pdrs!

If you want to fight Jerry heavy armour, go British. Fireflies are a jerry tankers worst nightmare.

If you want to go round the side, I recommend Cromwells, Mk VI. With 40 mph and half decent armour, they'll survive a bit longer than Hellcats.

On a related note, if you're facing lots of jerry TDs and can get close enough, drive through them on fast orders. You'll lose some tanks, but it looks fantastic.

[CMplayer]

I'd say a ratio of about 2-4 tiddlers per beast is about right.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Major Catastrophe:

i love my tanks i really do, and the loss of just one upsets me.....

In that case you'd be better off not buying any at all.

[Soddball]

I would pick a number of small tanks, and use greyhounds/daimlers to get flank shots on Panthers. That side armour is weedy, and a 37mm gun will do an excellent job.

For frontal penetration, I pick pairs of fireflies.

I can't emphasise enough the effectiveness of pairs of tanks attacking at the same time. I played a TCP/IP game (one of Rune's) over the weekend, and played as Polish. I lost lots of tanks because they attacked singly - and when I rolled a pair of 75mm Cromwells over the top of a crest, they put down 3 Panzer IV's for no loss, then rolled back down at the end of the turn. My opponent was holding his head in his hands by the end of that one

(He also went ape**** when I toasted 3 of his tanks in 30 seconds with PIATs, and that evil maneuvre won me the game).

[Gen-x87H]

Lots oh cheap ass TDs.

Allied tanks just cant hang one on one with the big cats. So you might as well swam the hell out of them with tanks that have guns who can penetrate that armor. I would also used a shatload of infantry on top of that. 5000 points is a lot of infantry. Lets see I can get 8 toons in a 1500 point game as the Germans. I bet I could get almost 3 battalions out of a 5K game

Gen

[Major Catastrophe]

Splendid advice, in particular, the TD advice, the PBEM opponent in question is spying on this thread, having told me in todays e-mailings, but i'm going to say this anyway, yonks ago i downloaded a hi res mod for the M18, and never used it, the opponent in question did however, raced right round the pitch and shot me in my arse...anyway, having read the above advice i thought i'd review the litte fella to see his stats, and there before me on the screen was the sexiest, raciest bastard of a tank ever - my long forgotten, now to be used in massed squads of Panther ass kicking groups, the M18 - its gorgeous, and i'll be ordering 25 for my next 5000pt battle, ooo and ive just updated my M8 HMC, ill take some of those too!!!!

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Major Catastrophe:

- my long forgotten, now to be used in massed squads of Panther ass kicking groups, the M18 - its gorgeous, and i'll be ordering 25 for my next 5000pt battle, ooo and ive just updated my M8 HMC, ill take some of those too!!!!

Ahh, another faithful convert to the fold! Welcome friend, and may the German big cats die small, pitiless deaths under the 76mm cannons of your M18s!

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by The Commissar:

But having tried the US 76mm, next try some of the British armor. The 17 pounder is a far better gun (more fatal to tanks and with better HE) and can often be bought more cheaply than the 76mm. Try British Fireflies, Challengers, Comets and Archers, all of them lethal against Panther FRONTAL armor, as is the AT gun version of the 17pounder and the 6 pounder AT (same as the US 57mm but supplied with lethal tungsten). These British tanks will in the long run force your opponent to move DOWN to the PzIV or Stug, since these are fatal to the British gunslingers.

Also, the 95mm howitzer on the Churchill VIII and Cromwell VIII is a superb HE weapon that can kill Panthers frontally. The Cromwell VIII is about a cheap as a Hellcat, nearly as fast, has better armor (no worries from 20mm), MUCH better HE, and can kill Panthers or Tigers from the front. Plus it will really use it's "c" changes (unlike US Sherman 105).

All in all, I would definitely go British against an uber-cat fancier. On defense, I would favor British AT guns and TDs. And don't forget the lethal (and cheap) 5.5 VT arty! I've seen VT arty kill a Marder with a blast that landed 100m distant.

[Larsen]

You may find my suggestion odd but I would stay away from Allied tanks at all. Get British AB with tons of 4.2 mortars and the rest spend on a combination of on board 3in mortars, guns and trucks and jeeps to tow them. This will work unless the terrrain is very, very open.

As redfwolf said it's the infantry that wins the game. 10 Panthers are very expensive and not very effective against infantry. They don't have enough HGE shells and their blast is only 34. If you move your infantry you should be able to avoid him doing much damage to you with his Panthers.

You will have enough arty and infantry to suppress his infantry screen around his tanks and your PIATs will take them out one by one.

Keep in mind tha talthough british 4.2 inch mortars are not the most powerfull in the game but they route and break infantry same way as the more expensive stuff. And oyu can get tons of those in 5000 pts game.

In general it's a good idea to max out the infantry and arty before purchasing armor in CMBO.

By the way did you play with one force rule? What was the terrain?

Larsen

[Gen-x87H]

I agree with larsen. Whenever I start a game up with somebody it is the same routine.

max out Inf, max out arty. Then fill in with guns or Armor.

Gen

[Major Catastrophe]

It was mod hills and mod trees.....his Panthers are sat on hills, and whilst i had my own tanks on my hills....sadly they were Panthered...i took 8 Churchill VIIIs, seven of them lie smoking, all facing his Panthers, all sticking out their big armoured frontage, all in their time fired four or five shots at his Panthers, each.....the crew may as well have carried the shells up the hill themselves and rammed them into his armour by hand, BTW, thats another question i meant to ask - Reg. tankers or Vet., i took 3 Pershings, 1 Jumbo, and 8 Churchills, all of them needed a good 3 or 4 shots before hitting the target, and they had been parked in that position since the start of the game...and these were Reg tankers...never, ever again!!!! Whilst i accept all incoming advice from sturdy veterans, and i know my PBEM opponent is watching, he's already commented on my new M18 addiction, i think Commissar has steered my rightly, i have read his posts from when he was a wee fledgling tanker, getting mashed by his obstinate PBEM opponent, his next match with M18s seemed to solve his problems......i'll give it a try and get back to you....its his turn to choose next, i have an awful feeling he's going to want to be Allies and i sense the M18 factory working overtime!!!!! Thanks for all advice.....

[Gen-x87H]

I hate to sound mean but your name seems to fit your play style

"It was mod hills and mod trees.....his Panthers are sat on hills, and whilst i had my own tanks on my hills....sadly they were Panthered...i took 8 Churchill VIIIs, seven of them lie smoking, all facing his Panthers, all sticking out their big armoured frontage, all in their time fired four or five shots at his Panthers, each.....the crew may as well have carried the shells up the hill themselves and rammed them into his armour by hand, BTW, thats another question i meant to ask - Reg. tankers or Vet., i took 3 Pershings, 1 Jumbo, and 8 Churchills, all of them needed a good 3 or 4 shots before hitting the target, and they had been parked in that position since the start of the game...and these were Reg tankers...never, ever again!!!!"

Churcill gun is horribly inaccurate at range. Jumo is an Inf tank, and the Pershings gun at anything over 700 meters seems to also be horribly inaccurate. All the while the Panther tank I have seen is deadly accurate upto 1200 meters and it hits you deadly at that range to.

"Whilst i accept all incoming advice from sturdy veterans, and i know my PBEM opponent is watching, he's already commented on my new M18 addiction, i think Commissar has steered my rightly, i have read his posts from when he was a wee fledgling tanker, getting mashed by his obstinate PBEM opponent, his next match with M18s seemed to solve his problems......i'll give it a try and get back to you....its his turn to choose next, i have an awful feeling he's going to want to be Allies and i sense the M18 factory working overtime!!!!! Thanks for all advice..... "

M18s are made quick work of with Flak guns. 37mm can light an entire column in a matter of a minute under good circumstances and not being seen. High ROF means they can find the target quickly if they miss on the first couple of shots, descent sized weapon + penetration. Get a couple of these to augment larger caliber AT weapons.

Gen

[ April 02, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Gen-x87H ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Major Catastrophe:

It was mod hills and mod trees.....his Panthers are sat on hills, and whilst i had my own tanks on my hills....sadly they were Panthered...i took 8 Churchill VIIIs, seven of them lie smoking, all facing his Panthers,

Watch the armor and gun stats. The thick variant Churchills are thick enough to withstand the Panther gun IIRC at 500m and up.

Go into the editor and draw LOS lines between the tank pairs at different angles and different distances. It gives you hit probability and knockout chance. When does it change from "OK" to "Rare"?

BTW, thats another question i meant to ask - Reg. tankers or Vet.,

In my opinion, nd it is really a matter of taste, the overall chances are better if you invest the same points into more regular tanks. You pay for all kinds of stuff you don't need in duels if you take veteran. If you have points left that don't allow you buy another tank, but allows you to update one to veteran, that may be worth it if you really want a tough tank force. But then, veteran tanks go down nicely, too and they cost more knockout points. Veteran crews do better, recon, though

i took 3 Pershings, 1 Jumbo, and 8 Churchills, all of them needed a good 3 or 4 shots before hitting the target, and they had been parked in that position since the start of the game...and these were Reg tankers...never, ever again!!!!

As I said, go into the editor and watch the hit probabilities in the LOS tools. You will actually find that the low-velocity guns like the 95mm are nearer to a normal AT gun than you think.

You problem here is that you take too many very slow tanks. That doesn't lead anywhere if your opponent knows how to kill tanks, either by own tanks or by infantry. Or mines...

What I recommend is buying fast tanks. Move them like you would move if you were a single infantryman on this battlefield. Rush from cover to cover. Not to kill enemy tanks that can hurt you. Kill targets that don't shoot back first. If your Cromwell goes down eventually, but with all HE shells unloaded on infantry the turns before, things look a lot different than with that Churchill which lived without cover and did notthing useful before losing an armor duel.

As for specific tanks:

Churchill is way too lame. I like the Jumbo much more, especially when on the attack and lots of 75mm PaKs waiting, because it has only a thick front and is swift enough. The side armor of the Churchill is only better against 37mm Flak and 50mm PaK. Side shots of these may happen, but I don't think it is worth it.

I would be interested in the Pershing, and in fact I have been waxed by a pair of Super Pershings lately. The non-super Pershing is way too expensive for its armor, hence I never bought it, but I wouldn't be surprised to get good results out of it, because it is fast enough for above play style. The amount of anti-infantry capablity you get for the 300 points is kinda prohibitive, though.

The Hellcat is vulnerable to the 20mm. If you study hit probablities you know why I don't buy these often - the Flak guns will get them certainly when they rush from cover to cover, you cannot be *that* fast. They look cool, though, especially in Serbia in 1999

I don't particularily like the British 95mm anymore, and I hate the US 76mm which is just not up to its task.

Having said all this, infantry-heavy forces will in the long term win more games, certainly. Maybe, just maybe, it is a little different in a 5000 points games where enough Panthers may cover each other to offset the MG problems. But on any typical med hills/med trees map you just drive them into a corner, either sneaky or just by overrunning.

[MikeyD]

Want to drive your opponent crazy? Buy lotsa artillery specifically to smoke him off that hilltop. If you can get him to start searching for new cover the chances for a side-shot increase greatly. If he refuses to move then flank him as he sits there blind. Going nose-to-nose with a Panther is generally not a good idea, especially at any kind of long-ish range.

I recall in "A Walk in Paris" I parked my Panther about 900m from the oncoming Shermans. Took more than a dozen hits without effect. It wasn't til the smoke shells started coming that things finally turned against me.

[Major Catastrophe]

Hey Gen, i'm only learning!!!!!!!

I wouldnt be asking for your opinion if i knew that the Churchill gun fires 'em like bowling balls, and the Panther could reverse faster than the shell as it approached!!!!

I read that some people prefer heaps and heaps of infantry, but surely no matter how much i have, a direct HE round to the face is going to make my troops move!!!!!!

[Arsenal]

Gen has good advice.

Forget churchill 95s their gun accuracy sucks at the long range engagments you'll find in 5000point games.

Pershings cost too much,you can buy a jackson and a priest for alot less.The jacksons gun while not as good as the pershings, will still kill panthers and to make up for it's low amount of HE you've got the priest.

All the brit tanks with 17pdrs have thin armour so your really just buying them for the gun.So it makes sense to get the cheapest.The archer might be too wierd to use if you're just learning,so the next best thing is the archilles.If you just want to kill panthers buy a mix of them and 17pdr a/t guns.Get some humber scout cars to distract the panthers so you can get off the first shots.

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

M18s are made quick work of with Flak guns. 37mm can light an entire column in a matter of a minute under good circumstances and not being seen. High ROF means they can find the target quickly if they miss on the first couple of shots, descent sized weapon + penetration. Get a couple of these to augment larger caliber AT weapons.

Gen

MajorC,

Gen-x brings up a good point and one it took me a few ill-fated battles to learn.

Lets use an anology (because they're a lot of fun, silly!).

Look at the M-18 as upon cavalry. Cavalry, against a good opponent, was only very effective when that opponent was close to defeat. The cavalry was the final, morale-crushing blow that sent the enemy ranks fleeing for the hills.

Use M-18's similarly. They by no means should be rushed around the map from turn one (that is, unless you and your opponent have agreed to an all-armor battle without allowing usage of AT guns). They are to sit behind good cover. Remember that unlike other armor, the M-18s are faster then Superman. If you want them across the map, they'll be there in a turn and a half. Your M-18's should then wait and wait a good long while. Be patient in employing them. Plan ahead and scout out. How?

If you see a concentration of enemy armor somewhere on the map, there are several steps you must take for the M-18 to produce its cavalry charge effect and not succumb to the deadly armor-piercing projectiles of high ROF flak guns, as did their stalion predessessors to the longbowmen in days of yore!

1. Analyze the terrain. Your M-18s are quick and thus you must use this speed to your advantage. They can hop from cover to cover before the enemy can place a bead on them. Chances are they will make it through. Be sure to use your M-18's in big masses so that you can be sure some survive to fight.

2. Idealy this should not have taken place at the end of the game. I am assuming your opponent has actually been using his armor and you have an idea of where it is. You must scout the route you wish to have your M-18s use. This will let you know in advance if there are any nasty flak guns and/or hidden armor waiting for you. Scout as much of the area as possible using half teams and even inexpensive, useless scout cars. Make note of any areas where you suspect a flak gun can hide. Try and avoid/smoke these areas.

3. If you have the resources, use smoke to cover your advance! This isnt necessary, but can save some tankers life and can be a lot of fun. A cute little trick is to use two spotters and lay two smoke fields in different parts of the map. If you've been using your maskirovka like a good little trooper, your opponent has not a bloody clue where your M-18s are. He'll have to guess where a possible strike might come from! *cue maniacal laughter*

4. Now for ze charge! Here comes a difficult decision: you must select an appropriate musical track to bless your assault with good luck - you'll need it when you're praying that T-round strikes home. While classics like Wagner are welcome, Ive been experimenting with metal and it sets the mood just as well.

5. Those M-18's should once again be moving as a mass, and if you've got a really good advance route, wont be detected until it is much too late. Preferably, they should be hitting the enemy armor in the flank, although Ive gotten some surprisingly effective results rushing right at the enemy armor through a town or other similar cover. I dont recommend it though, can be too risky.

6. KA-POW! ZAP! BADA-BOOM!

Thats the sound of your M-18's rushing into the enemy armor concentration. If the enemy has massed armor your M-18's will be the most effective as their advantage of speed and surprise will kill as many tanks as your opponent has got. If these enemy tanks are real monsters a good trick to use with your M-18's is to rush them right into the enemy and around the enemy armor! Yes, around. Chances are your M-18 will kill anything the enemy can bring to the field at a close range, but if theres a lack of luck on your part and it takes a few shots, your M-18s will circle the enemy tanks so fast they wont have time to center and fire on them.

7. The enemy's formerly invulnerable armada of uber-panzers is a field of burning corpses!! Likely, you've lost a few M-18s as well. Dont bow your head and shed a tear just yet, you need to get the others out first! Do NOT get cocky. That was one of my biggest mistakes. You get a tactical success and feel a battle is now won. Too bad your opponent tends to disagree. Pull those M-18s into close cover and sneak them behind your own lines. Don't try to keep them in the open or fight infatry with them (unless you really need to). Now these brave Hussars can retire to the officer lounge for a glass of port and a game of poker. Fine job, lads!

EDIT: Almost forgot to add, don't bother taking Vet M-18s. I have found that with M-18s, quantity is better then quality. At the close ranges your M-18's should be engaging the enemy, there isn't a large difference between a Vet and a Reg crew.

[ April 02, 2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: The Commissar ]