reconnaissance / fog of war

[Hafer]

Hello Guys,

i've a problem with reconaissance.

Before you develop an attack plan you have to know the strength and location of the enemy force-that's clear.

Are you using only special vehicles to do this job?

And what about huge maps (battlefields)- you need a lot of vehicles/units for reconnaissance!

Or do you advance carefully with your whole infantery?

Another problem is, that you loose a lot of turns just for reconnaissance when you are carefully!

I often advance with one infantery group just looking whats going around - but often they are discovered by enemy tanks and then they get very fast into panic!

[Mud]

What I have problems with is vehicle-only advances, such as "A Day in the Cavalry" (CMBO operation) or the "Citadel Schwerpunkt" scenario (CMBB demo).

At least when you have infantry in a decent quantity, and ample turns, you can spend some time probing with small groups e.g. split squads some distance in advance of the main force. If there are woods or other nice terrain/cover that look like they'd be a good choice for an ambush to spring (on you), you can check them out. If you don't have time to check out everything (do you ever?), then you can at least check out positions that could be most damaging, and try for overwatch on other areas. As long as the recon doesn't stray THAT far from your attack groups, and isn't used most absurdly (e.g. a solo suicidal split squad rushing right past a known machinegun nest just to peer behind a wall or into a building and telepathically report all they can see before they die), an opponent shouldn't complain.

If all I have are vehicles, however, and there are a decent number of woods or other cover around, then I'm not at all sure what to do. Recon by fire isn't (even with the improved MGs in CMBB) that reliable against somebody unspotted, in good cover, and in a foxhole, and you can park vehicles for a while right outside and not spot ambushers inside for some time. If you ignore them, however, then you may expose a flank to a small hidden AT gun, or perhaps an ATR (14.5mm => 800m range), MG (a concern esp. if you've got thin-skinned vehicles, or you need those TCs e.g. tanks w/o radios) or a zook-type weapon. Hm.

[Michael Emrys]

In CMBO I used to send a sharpshooter about a hundred meters ahead of each advancing platoon to flush out any nasties. I think in CMBB that task may fall on the tank hunter teams unless there are dedicated scout/recon units in the game. They are much better armed for that kind of work.

Michael

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

In CMBO I used to send a sharpshooter about a hundred meters ahead of each advancing platoon to flush out any nasties.

Michael

How exactly did you do that- did you use the Sharpies to draw fire? I tend to use Sharpies very cautiously, since 1 enemy bullet yields quite a lot of Victory Points for killing just 1 guy. I prefer using Rifle Teams for scouting...they are less stealthy and have a longer intrinsic command delay, but they are cheaper and more robust...if they break, there's a chance that you might get a survivor or two actually making it back to base.

I usually unhide a Sharpshooter or two to kill TC's, and give them a "sneak back into deeper cover" order w/ 1 or 2 pauses so hopefully they won't die.

[Chad Harrison]

For me, especially with the attacking russians, recon must be a force recon, and I mean FORCE! When your infantry as green/conscript, no recon is really going to work. The best way to beat the germans under those circumstances is to advance tanks first with infantry close behind. I tried that out, with EFOW, and lost something like 45 men and forced a german surrender.

Chad

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

How exactly did you do that- did you use the Sharpies to draw fire?

Nope. As you state, they are too valuable point-wise to use recklessly. I took advantage of their inherent stealth to get them close enough to spot the German positions. Even if they couldn't always ID the units, they could spot foxholes, vehicles, & stuff. And if somebody did start shooting at them, the follow-up platoons could give them some covering fire. I hardly ever lost a sharpshooter, and I used lots of them.

Once the action had gotten well underway, I used them to snipe at gun and MG crews, etc. The usual.

It will be interesting to look over the CMBO list of organisations to see if there aren't better units than sharpshooters available for scouting. Something along the line of the Soviet tank hunter teams, for instance. Armed with SMGs in case they stumble on somebody awake and have to duke it out. Sharpshooters of course are reluctant to fire in close quarters, which puts them at a disadvantage in this situation. And they don't have a lot of firepower when they do shoot. So they aren't truly optimal for the scouting task. I just never had a platoon that I could afford to break up to use for scouting.

Michael

[ September 07, 2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[PiggDogg]

Guys,

Until otherwise proved (& I can be easily persuaded with sound logic; please let me know), I like a bunch of half squad suicide guys, er pointmen/scout guys , advancing ahead of the main main body by maybe 100 to 150 meters.

These suicide guys, er pointmen, are cheap (although I suspect that they would think that their lives are of certain high value ). All they do is force the enemy guys to fire & reveal themselves. Then the main body (with lots of firepower & HE) should be able to take care of those evils who dared to lay in wait.

Cheers, Richard

[Bluecoat]

Gah!

(OT) Reminds me of reading in "Nothing less than Victory - An Oral History of D-Day" about the sole british soldier told by his officer to walk down a village street so that his officer could spot the sniper :/.

[Sgt. Schultz]

LMG teams for Axis make great scouts. 9 points and don't panic as quick as a half squad.

I have heard that some folks use brit 2 inch mortar teams for scouts. (I have not tried that yet)

CMBB will most likely have different units suitable for scouting.

[Michael Dorosh]

"A good scout is a dead scout" Richard!

[PiggDogg]

Mike,

Yep. Usually, suicide guys, er scouts suffer 50%, 60%, or so casualties. However, they do their job and save massive casualties to the mail line attackers. :eek:

As you know, as an attacker against a skilled opponent, one expects to take pretty heavy casualties. However, if the attacker can keep the casualties near one to one, he should win. The defender will run out of men and, most importantly, firepower at a greater rate than the attacker.

Life of a suicide guy, er scout, is short, but useful.

Cheers, Richard

[Ace Pilot]

I noticed CMBB indicates which units are equipped with binoculars, and it seems to me that these units are better able to spot and identify enemy units. Does anyone think such units will be used (misused?) as scouts?

Ace

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

I noticed CMBB indicates which units are equipped with binoculars, and it seems to me that these units are better able to spot and identify enemy units. Does anyone think such units will be used (misused?) as scouts?

When attacking in Yelnia Stare I try to keep the binocular units in pretty good sight. That means MGs in good LOS and surplus HQs pretty far forward.

My expectation is that I get a much quicker fix where enemy units are exactly, not as a sound contact, so that I can shoot them up with the T-34s.

So far this did not really work as I thought. It seems to me that the binocular bonus does not actually improve the ability to get a clear spotting of a dug-in unit in woods by a big margin. There are other spotting situations where they might be better suited.

[Shosties]

Originally posted by Hafer:

Before you develop an attack plan you have to know the strength and location of the enemy force-that's clear.

Actually one fairly intelligent article posted on the Combat Mission HQ makes the case that within the proper scope of CM, the scenario briefing should incorporate enough information based upon true scout work done before the battle that you should be able to develop a relatively detailed plan from the beginning. Also, you shouldn't have to spend time with scouting proper as opposed to "recon by force" or screening in front of your axes of advance.

How many scenario designers give you a good feel about what you're headed into as the attacker? (Of course, this doesn't always have to be totally correct information! )

I'm pretty firmly convinced now that scouting with sharpshooters well in advance of a column is pretty gamey as the last thing these guys would want to carry with them would be a man pack radio of that day! (Even in Vietnam, the antennas were referred to as "three foot grave markers" :eek: ) One man, alone, in front, with a sniper rifle and a man pack radio. LOL I'd be suprised if that happened very often!

Jeeps used in a discreet fashion would be historical IMHO, esp. since .50" MG Jeeps w/ radio were standard in cavalry light sections. When we get ETO with the improved engine I doubt anyone will get much out of rushing them ahead given EFOW and more potent MGs.

A dedicated radio- and binocular-equipped infantry unit would be a nice addition to represent dismounted cav scouts. (Guy with radio stays back and doesn't ever walk point, so the abstracted unit can remain relatively stealthy)

[Nippy]

With any luck, 2 man "Scout-Sniper" Teams will be part of the Russian line up of troops.

[Louie the Toad]

It is true there was some discussion on the Forum about Briefings containing Scouting Reports. But this won't happen unless there is a standardization of Briefings. I am not sure I would trust them anyway. Every soldier scoffs at the intel report of "Expect light resistance".

So the choices are : sending someone up ahead with a certain amount of caution; or moving forward on the attack or assault and trusting in the briefings. I will take the first option each time. Who in their right mind would send a tank over the top of a hill without first having observed the other side. I certainly won't be sending open topped vehicles into a town unless I have first scouted and taken out enemy units in the buildings I am to pass by.

Maybe the designers of scenarios should uncover supposedly hidden units at the Set Up that have been seen and reported by Recon. The shadow vehicle markers would be used in that case. This would be a step in the right direction.

I think there also is confusion about what is Recon vs Scouting vs Cautious play.

"Go see what that is ! " -- Ollie to Stan

Toad

[CombinedArms]

In CMBO, anyway, I have tended to favor recon by force--which my experience suggests to be both the simplest and the most effective method. Mainly, this means sending my infantry platoons leapfrogging from cover to cover toward the VLs, trailing these with armor behind cover. The infantry platoon's task is to attempt to identify AT elements before they engage my armor, so that these can be dealt with appropriately, and to identify any infantry resistance that appears so that it can be destroyed with superior force.

I rarely operate infantry except as entire platoons under command, preferably accompanied by zooks and MGs slightly behind, and trailed by mortar teams. Sometimes, when the map is right, the MGs and mortars are a good ways back, ready to provide supressive fire wherever resistance appears. When resistance does appear, I try to blast it with the full firepower of the reinforced platoon, and also to bring up armor where needed and appropriate. I'm also pre-targeting my arty at likely spots a little ahead of the attacking force, so that it's ready to hit the resistence points as they appear as promptly as possible. (0ne of my rules is never to use arty except on positively identified targets.) I don't like split squads because they panic easily and die easily and they cost extra victory points when they die separately. Overall, I really dislike and personally avoid a suicidal approach to reconnaisance-- though I happily encourage such methods by my opponents.

I generally only use light armor in a recon role when:

1. The map is large

2. Time is short.

3. There's a flank that needs to be sniffed out.

HTs, Stuarts, PSWs and such are too easy to kill and too costly in victory points to be squandered, IMHO. And I might need their firepower later.

Not sure how well this approach will work in CMBB, but I'm guessing it won't work too badly.

[ September 22, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Not sure how well this approach will work in CMBB, but I'm guessing it won't work too badly.

I like using entire platoons as well. What I'm looking forward to in CMBB is playing with the new movement commands - I suspect that the new move to contact command will be helpful for scouting.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I think in CMBB that task may fall on the tank hunter teams unless there are dedicated scout/recon units in the game. They are much better armed for that kind of work.

I think the tank hunter teams would make good recon units as well, but won't they cost too much to use without much caution.

[Wilhammer]

On recon information with the Scenario Briefing.

Would it not be nice to be able to enclose a gif or jpg in a scenario briefing text? Move from text to HTML would be great.

Then a scenario designer could load the map in the editior, take a picture of it with the zones defined, and dress it up with those symbols and lines you see on real planning maps.

[Keith]

You seem to be asking two questions in one

1) How do I avoid getting ambushed

2) How do I determine enemy positions without getting waxed

The answer to part one in armor engagments is to use overwatch tactics where anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of your force stops (preferably hull down) while the remainder advances within sight of the overwatch group. This way if a bad guy pops up they can be supressed by the overwatch tanks. You can leap frog units in this fashion. Never send recon units so far out in advance that they are not covered, otherwise you will end up with a lot of flaming data points. Another good tactic with CM:BB is to use the covered arc command to bring the turret to bear on suspected enemy positions whatever the direction of your movement.

For the answer to the second part, how do you determine enemy positions, there are a couple of solutions. One solution is "recon by fire" where you simply area fire on a suspected enemy position and hope the bad guys break cover and return fire, or at least remain supressed. This is a good tactic against buildings. Another tactic is to send split half squads forward with move to contact or sneak commands. For vehicles in CM:BB, use the Shoot and Scoot command when popping up over a ridge or around a bend. This allows a minimal amount of time for the bad guys to shoot at you. I hope this helps.

[Frunze]

Combined Arms, I think we may all end up using your methods in CMBB. At least based on my experience with Yelnia, I don't see how anyone could get a half-squad or tank hunter team to keep going far enough forward to spot enemy positions.

[Priest]

Briefing = Strategic Recon

In Game = Tactical Recon

Also I am interested why no Uber Grog has shown up and said that Tank Hunter teams should not be doing recon, just as in CMBO people flamed folks for pushing forward "recce" AT teams.

Peronally I use a dedicated Recce force, whose size and makeup depends on the size of the game or units available in the scenario. Saying that there is one unit you always use is like say that I always use the Zergling in StarCraft to find the Human's base! Funny stuff but possibly gamey. Just my opinion though, no harm intended.

[PiggDogg]

Keith,

1) How do I avoid getting ambushed

Half squads, scouts, pointmen. In my earlier posts in this thread, I was saying 'suicide guys'. I was being cute.

These few (and say few, maybe 6 to 10 half squads per batallion) advance ahead of the main body and require the enemy to shoot at the scouts and thus reveal the enemy. When the enemy is exposed, my main body (hopefully, from decent cover) applies superior firepower upon the enemy.

Would one prefer that one's main force in bad cover walk into enemy ambushes and enemy fire patterns. Or, would one prefer that these few half squads in bad cover to do the walking? :confused:

Personally, I prefer that a few scout guys be exposed in bad cover to enemy fire (and suffer some casulaties) and allow my main force (from decent cover) to batter the enemy. :eek:

If one can't overpower the enemy after having suffered a few casualties among the few scouts, then he would have even less chance overpowering the enemy after having heavier casulaties amongst the main body.

Just call me silly. And many people do.

2) How do I determine enemy positions without getting waxed

See answer above.

Remember, in CM, the attacker hopefully should have more men and more firepower than the defenders. Remember, against a competent oppoent, the attacker will suffer casualties.

Hopefully, the casualties are among the more numerous and harder to kill with one shot infantry scouts, than among the easier to kill with one shot and heavier firepower tanks, SP-HE guns, mortars, FOs, MGs, inf guns, etc.

Cheers, Richard

[ September 26, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[undertow]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

...The best way to beat the germans under those circumstances is to advance tanks first with infantry close behind. I tried that out, with EFOW, and lost something like 45 men and forced a german surrender.

Chad

Exactly the tactic I just used on an Attack Quick Battle, though I was using a German Mechanized force.

At a pinnacle ridge during the 40 turn scenario, I tried different tactics w/ my tanks against dug-in defending armour. The most successful was forming a 'line' formation at different points on the crest of the ridge at a distance of 800meters to 3 towed AT-guns and 3 t-34s vs. my 7 Panzer IVGs. I used the 'Contact' move command just at the point of LOS (buttoned down as well) for each individual PzIVG. The Soviets had too many targets to shoot at, and the ones that were catching fire from the red's all moved in reverse half-way through the turn thanks to the 'Contact' command. Their change in movement messed up the T-34s aim and allowed the PzIVGs that weren't being fired upon to get clear shots. I had 1 of mine explode catastrophically while all of their defensive AT forces were knocked out in under 2 minutes.

I must say (because I haven't yet!), this game is amazing .. and I gotta thank 'Matt' from BFC/BTS for overnighting a replacement copy for my broken cd. I first realized how much I was going to love this game when my 7 panzers were firing at once.