SNEAK PREVIEW

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by MajorTaktik:

Remove the HULLDOWN command, please. IMO, it should be a skill of the player and not be automated for someone. It is an artificial way of giving someone a skill that they might not be so good at. If they can't find a good HULLDOWN spot, then too bad. CM is the ultimate in rewarding good tactics and punishing bad. Will there now be no reward for finding superior HD spots with good LOS on your own? If the AI does this for you, then where is the sense of satisfaction when one or your tanks brews an enemy tank. I will think, "Damn, that wasn't me that found that spot, but the AI". And if an enemy tank, HD with great LOS brews one of my tanks, I will think, "Hmmm. It is nice that the AI found such great spot for my opponent. I wonder if he could have done that for himself?"

Just my take on the HD command.

Craig

This is an interesting comment.

While I do agree with your position, (somewhat) it should be pointed out that MANY many newer players had a great deal of difficulty getting hull down status and posted many long winded complaints that the "game" should do that for them as it was not their "job" as the player to "finesse" their AFV's into ideal HD positions. (you and I of course of course agree to disagree with this logic )

I would suggest that skilled players can and do manage to get their AFV's into good HD positions without computer aid.

I think this feature is going to "dumb down" the game a bit, BUT I suspect there will be plenty of other more complicated issues and concepts in CMBB to master that we may actually thank them now that we can "automate" the seek HD position order.

It is my guess this feature is IN for a reason (make things easiers for the player) and it will stay in.

-tom w

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by CrapGame:

Appalling. Absolutely appalling. The fact that a gentleman would open his home to complete strangers in this era to let them get a taste of something that isn't quite finished yet, and then gets lambasted for doing so, makes me sick to my stomach. Gratitude is becoming more rare than sushi these days.

People complaining that too much "teasing" is being done by the guys at bfc are being ridiculous.

My comments were primarily directed at Berlichtingen (that's what the quote marks indicate - I thought that was clear). The references to 'teasing' were not necessarily related to official announcements and bones - but were in reference to the dissemination of information on 'all' channels, of which Rune's invitation was but one. 'The Club' refers to the beta testers and their non beta tester friends.

I have no problem with Rune and his invitation to those in the Chicago area - although I can certainly see why people would be angry about it if it was impossible for them to attend. I would not have posted anything were it not for Berlichtingen's seemingly innocuous remarks. His comments set me off.

If you don't want the samples, why log on to the forum every day?

I'm so happy you asked. I actually watch this board daily for about six of my friends who are not as internet savvy as myself (and who all own CMBO). You see, I've been posting on various message boards for several years and I'm accustomed to them. My friends aren't so accustomed, so I gather the information for them and e-mail it to them when I spot something interesting. 99.9% of the time I am speaking only for myself, or taking up the cause of another whose views I understand. In this case I am speaking for six people who don't spend as much time on the net as I - and who are beginning to describe CMBB in terms of vaporware.

You know the occasional bone is being tossed, and even better are the events like Rune's place.

It isn't the bones themselves that can be frustrating (the ones Matt tosses out on occasion), but in their delivery (official or otherwise). I stand by everything I said earlier. I don't have any doubts that BFC is working very hard on CMBB, and I don't have any issues with Rune's hospitality. However, I do believe that perhaps some are getting a little fast and loose with info that is not available to the general public, and that perhaps some testers should take more time to realize the position they are in.

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Just an observation --

If Rune also had a pre CMBO party as was stated.

What was the amount of time between the party and the release of CMBO ?

Extrapolating.... Toad

Not to encourage anything, but the CMBO party was in March and the release was in late May (wasn't it? I was out of the country and never got my copy until October 2000).

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

...and who are beginning to describe CMBB in terms of vaporware.

Well, if this is their thinking then the Sneak Peek should have been the perfect thing, not some insidious machination of the evil testers. I mean, if it's vaporware, then would they allow the great unwashed to go and actually play their game? No, they'd simply release a few pretty screenshots every now and then and leave it at that. While I can understand the feelings of jealousy (I admit, I'm jealous of those who got to go ) That arguement for not liking the Sneak Peek just doesn't cut it.

[Spanish Bombs]

OK, here's another cool feature, that I don't think has been mentioned: the ability to create "fallback positions" during setup. What this means is that, in certain scenarios, you can create foxholes, alotted to you during setup, as ready-made fall-back positions. Again, pretty nifty, IMHO, and speaking as someone who looked out over the field and saw a mass of Russian armor and human wave candidates, the prospects of falling back into some sort of dug-in cover is a welcome addition.

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MajorTaktik:

Remove the HULLDOWN command, please. IMO, it should be a skill of the player and not be automated for someone. It is an artificial way of giving someone a skill that they might not be so good at. If they can't find a good HULLDOWN spot, then too bad. CM is the ultimate in rewarding good tactics and punishing bad. Will there now be no reward for finding superior HD spots with good LOS on your own? If the AI does this for you, then where is the sense of satisfaction when one or your tanks brews an enemy tank. I will think, "Damn, that wasn't me that found that spot, but the AI". And if an enemy tank, HD with great LOS brews one of my tanks, I will think, "Hmmm. It is nice that the AI found such great spot for my opponent. I wonder if he could have done that for himself?"

Just my take on the HD command.

Craig

This is an interesting comment.

While I do agree with your position, (somewhat) it should be pointed out that MANY many newer players had a great deal of difficulty getting hull down status and posted many long winded complaints that the "game" should do that for them as it was not their "job" as the player to "finesse" their AFV's into ideal HD positions. (you and I of course of course agree to disagree with this logic )

I would suggest that skilled players can and do manage to get their AFV's into good HD positions without computer aid.

I think this feature is going to "dumb down" the game a bit, BUT I suspect there will be plenty of other more complicated issues and concepts in CMBB to master that we may actually thank them now that we can "automate" the seek HD position order.

It is my guess this feature is IN for a reason (make things easiers for the player) and it will stay in.

-tom w</font>

[Ron]

Speaking of hulldown positions, one of the *quirks* in CMBO is when Hunting an AFV towards a crest the TacAI will stop it to engage upon getting LOS to the target, usually resulting in the target being hulldown also, whereas if the AFV had advanced a little further forward the target wouldn't be hulldown. If that is still there with this new command then the players more used to the system will still have a little advantage. For what it's worth.

Ron

[Splinty]

Sounds to me like the hulldown command isn't a shortcut for lazy or inexperienced players, but instead a way to let the player concentrate on being a "commander" and let the TC take care of the nuts and bolts of the process. Just like in "real life". Just my .02 $

[Sitting Duck]

Question about the HD command (if any of you lucky folks know)...what if the end position does not have a hull down position with respect to the target? Is the HD line black or disabled in some way?

Question about multi-targets (if any of you lucky folks know)...one problem I ran into in a target rich environment is that the tank commander sometimes had some difficulty selecting a target. Similarly, the tank commander would "forget" about high-threat targets and spin the ol' turret around 180 to get the crew hanging out in the woods behind. Did you get an opportunity to evaluate this?

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Question to the lucky ones that Rune hosted:

Do tanks have a recoil when firing now? Does the hull rock from the force of the discharging main gun? And do the bigger guns now kick up dirt and debris after firing?

[karch]

Hi all,

Just got back from viewing CMBB. Thanks so much RUNE for being so accomodating. I really enjoyed my 3 hour half hour visit!

Everyone. You are going to love this game. In some ways the game looks like more of an incremental improvement, but the feel of the game seems like a much larger programming leap.

The things that I was really struck by were:

How fragile tank platoons are. Lose your platoon leader and your other tanks lose much of their usefulness. It is VERY obvious.

Extreme Fog of War is the way to go. It's great seeing tracers zipping around your men, but having NO idea where they are coming from.

Watching an enemy tank get ready to fire and not knowing who he is taking a bead on.

Knowing much less information about your opponent. I really felt like I was stumbling around.

Having tank after tank (or SU152 after SU152) getting brewed up by an invisible 88. I never saw it until the end of the game.

The sounds are really great. The Russ 12.7mm gun on the tanks sounds like a US 50 on steroids!! That thing sounded mean.

The AI is really amazing. Not that I'm that hard to beat anyway, but just watching how the AI handled it's tanks against me. Moving around for better shots but still staying a long ways off.

The covered arc command is very easy and just about perfect.

I really liked the find hull down command. I'm all for it. Remember, you are not the tank commander, you are telling him to do things. It makes perfect sense to me to have it as an order for the tank to follow.

As an attacker, and a sloppy one at that, I didn't get to see the power of MGs from the shooting side, but I did from the receiving end. You DON'T want to advance across MG covered open ground any more.

Ask questions, I'll try and answer. I played the Russians in an attack and had every one of my vehicles, 12 at least, destroyed in exchange for killing 1 Tiger, 2 Stugs and 1 gun damage on a Tiger (which reversed itself out of the battle).

[86smopuim]

I was kinda wondering about tank battles.

how many shots at what range did it take to score a hit? Same as CMBO, more, less???

I know, many factors involved there, but some examples would be nice...

[John Kettler]

I think it's great that rune hosted a sneak preview and that some of you got to attend. Wish I'd been there, though, but California is not next door to Chicago.

I'd like to know whether any of you who got to use Tiger or Panther tanks noticed any improvement in turret rotation rate or in the AI's targeting logic? I refer specifically to the apparent nervous breakdown the AI suffers when targets pop up in different sectors and the AI, rather than engaging one right off, sees another and begins traversing the turret to engage it, but before it shoots that one, goes haring off after a third or back to the first. I've seen turns in which the AI spent the whole turn wigwagging the turret and never shooting at all. This has been fatal for my tanks repeatedly. I'm hoping the turret rates have been improved and am really praying for better targeting logic.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ July 05, 2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[karch]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

I was kinda wondering about tank battles.

how many shots at what range did it take to score a hit? Same as CMBO, more, less???

I know, many factors involved there, but some examples would be nice...

I only played 1 game. I squared off SU152s against 5 Tigers. Range was around 500M or so. I didn't notice much difference in the number of shots to hit. Maybe a little lower than currently. But nothing noticeable. I think it sure felt right. I don't think there were any first shot hits from any moving tanks. Now the concealed 88 was REALLY accurate from about 600M. A few first shot hits, not many misses.

[karch]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

I'd like to know whether any of you who got to use Tiger or Panther tanks noticed any improvement in turret rotation rate or in the AI's targeting logic? I refer specifically to the apparent nervous breakdown the AI suffers when targets pop up in different sectors and the AI, rather than engaging one right off, sees another and begins traversing the turret to engage it, but before it shoots that one, goes haring off after a third or back to the first. I've seen turns in which the AI spent the whole turn wigwagging the turret and never shooting at all. This has been fatal for my tanks repeatedly. I'm hoping the turret rates have been improved and am really praying for better targeting logic.

I wish I could give you a good answer, but I was looking so much a the covered arc, advance commands, and just watching the AI defend very aggressively I didn't notice anything. I had all SUs. 152s and 122s, so I didn't have any turrets to watch. I wasn't watching the tigers turrets turn to much. He set up a great overwatch position and didn't have to turn them very much. I just didn't have a chance to see the items you mentioned in my 1 game. Sorry about that.

[Barrold]

Not having a personal copy to microanalyze all the cool details, it is difficult to really get an exact measure of the games proclivities as they relate to the highly scrutinized behavior of CM:BO

The impression I received was of a better targeting based on level of threat. Mind you, in a target rich environment (such as was the case in the scenario I played against the AI in which I seemed to have three HUGE groups of really big and impressive looking SP guns coming towards my meagre defensive line) it can be difficult to choose what to shoot at first. The extreme FOW adds to this tension because of the added time you may need to determine the effect of hits against armor. Do you assume that tank is dead and switch to the next target cresting the ridge or do you give it more time to make sure and risk missing the first shot opportunity against another threat?

Part of my forces were Tigers and while the rotation issue did not make itself noticeable, I did have a "holy crap" moment with them that I can relate. As I was shoaring up a flank with the platoon of Tigers I received as reinforcements by moving them into position, I was focusing on the exploits of my heroic 88 as it was finally pinned by the weight of incoming shells.

Watching the turn onfold, I heard the ominous hum of an airplane engine and the high pitched scream of descending bombs. Rune and I looked around the battlefield and turned back the clock to see what had happened. The rewind showed the close air support streaking parallel to my lines with the intent to attack the platoon of Tigers. Holding my breath, I heard the eggs drop and was amazed to see two large explosions straddle the big tank and shock but not damage it. An excellent moment.

BDH

[ July 06, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: barrold713 ]

[karch]

I think we were playing the same scenario. Something about "cracking the egg" or something like that.

Let me tell you, from the Russian's side, it did NOT feel like a thin defensive line. Extreme FOW really gives the game more suspense.

Better MG fire really pins down troops better.

Lack of smoke in soviet tanks hurts a lot

Extremely long delay in firing Russian arty (12 Min for LOS target) is... difficult to work with.

Not knowing if a target is dead or not really makes you have to decide if you want to waste more shells on it to make SURE it's dead, or move to another target. I think you'll see more realistic overkills on taks after they are dead because you aren't always sure if it's dead unless it's burning. Much like I read in books.

There are far more "holy crap, where did that come from" moments than even in CMBO, and, to me, that is a great thing.

Again. The game looks much the same, but with much better looking vehicles right out of the box. Looks like a very highly moded CMBO and vehicles seem to have somewhat more polygons for better detail.

I would have loved to play more, but I had to get into the office and didn't want to hoard Rune's valuable time. Thanks again. It was great meeting you and I appreciate you hospitality.... and pretzles.

[86smopuim]

Can you speak of any new terrain types?

[Panzer_Meyer]

Wow, I like the fact that you can't if tank is dead or not. That is trully realistic, in Panzer Aces it talks about tank commanders making sure a tank is dead by firing 2-4 shots into a tank. Only sure way of knowing is if the tank catches fire or smoke comes out or the crew bails out.

[Ron]

Originally posted by karch:

Extreme Fog of War is the way to go. It's great seeing tracers zipping around your men, but having NO idea where they are coming from.

Watching an enemy tank get ready to fire and not knowing who he is taking a bead on.

Having tank after tank (or SU152 after SU152) getting brewed up by an invisible 88. I never saw it until the end of the game.

Not knowing if a target is dead or not really makes you have to decide if you want to waste more shells on it to make SURE it's dead, or move to another target. I think you'll see more realistic overkills on taks after they are dead because you aren't always sure if it's dead unless it's burning. Much like I read in books.

Thanks again to you, barrod and Spanish Bombs for your comments. Sounds like a lot of welcome improvements were incorporated.

From your above comments I understand with Extreme FOW there are no more targetting lines present from the enemy? Re not knowing if a tank is dead or not after scoring a hit, weren't you able to see if it was firing anymore to ascertain that? Or does the TacAI continue to fire, uncertain, until it brews up or you give another target order?

Interesting you never saw the 88 until the end of the game, not sure if this was mentioned earlier but at about what range was it engaging you? How many troops of yours were in the area? Yeah pretty specific I know! Just trying to get a feel for what's done here.

Someone mentioned earlier about area firing with MGs into smoke, did you see if that was there? What about dust? Or KO'd vehicles blocking LOS? Or... lol I know

Ron

[Le Tondu]

What about fighter-bombers? Did anyone have a chance to see how they're handled? Thanks.

[Barrold]

Karch and I were playing the same scenario from different sides and our contrasting opinions should give everyone goosebumps as to the the levels of uncertainty added by the extreme FOW. There are still targeting lines, but I don't believe that they are necessarily 100% accurate measures of spotting or if a unit is still alive. I might be wrong since I am not an official source so grant me some leeway if I tubed this answer.

I think I opened up on the oncoming armor at between 500-700 meters and the game said this was a very good kill range. The game was right.

The new terrain types and the incorporated doodads are simply a fantastic enhancement that make the battlefield much more of a real environment. They add depth and perspective to the tiles in a most aesthetically pleasing manner. The screenshots were good, but seeing it in the game shows why the BFC guys were so excited about this advancement.

I am playing CM:BO in another window at the moment and thinking about the grass and how it currently looks even with the best mods. Remembering what the new grass looks like, I almost can't imagine why someone would want to mod it. Not that it won't be of course by someone for some reason, but this grass is a major step forward that I wanted to mention in comparison to what I was used to seeing.

Another quick battle story. This anecdote was mentioned in passing by Rune earlier, but it was a cool moment that deserves more details.

Fairly early into the scenario, two of the large groups of BIG SP guns rumbled towards me and several were violently opened for inspection by one of my 88s. On my right flank, behind a ridge, sat another of these can-openers hiding in some scattered trees.

This area was also covered by a smaller ATG but I was still very worried when I saw an approaching SU something or other insert large number here, cresting the ridge about 60 meters away. The worry resulted from the fact that the hidden 88 was not pointed in this direction.

On my turn, I targeted the looming monster with the hope that the gun would rotate fast enough to get a shot off before being blasted. I commented to Rune that I hoped their life insurance was paid up.

After hitting 'GO', I was incredulous that the gun was not immediately seen and destroyed. Seconds ticked off and we clicked the 88 and hit tab to view it being blown up. The two barrels rotated towards each other in a desparate death race when suddenly a loud thunk came from the SP. It was the 75mm hitting but apparently not killing on its first shot. This quickly buttoned the crew and this little distraction was just enough time for the bigger gun to finish transversing and it roared much to my approval. The round slammed into its target and this time I was sure the vehicle was done for as the crew quickly scrambled from the wreck.

An excellent moment. I would have loved to seen that one from the other side.

BDH

[Barrold]

A little earlier I discussed being on the receiving end of some close air support. The planes seemed to behave in much the same way as before, but it was put out that the types and loadouts available are going to be much enhanced.

Waiting to see where the bombs are going to hit retains all the charms of the first game.

BDH

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by barrold713:

The new terrain types and the incorporated doodads are simply a fantastic enhancement that make the battlefield much more of a real environment.

BDH

Do the doodads block LOS/ provide cover? Ie. could there be, say, large rocks (instead of current rough) for infantry to shelter behind ?

Can you hide in a field of wheat ?

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by barrold713:

the types and loadouts available are going to be much enhanced.

BDH

Will Sturmovik be included ? Guess pointing targets to aircraft isn't in. That'd would've been cool : "Take out that village" Wait a couple of turns, and thar she blows !

It's my understanding they had FOs for planes in WW II. You'd have this guy in an AC radioing planes where to strike. Imagine what a couple of Sturmoviks could do to a panzer platoon stuck out in the open !!!!

TOP PENETRATION, knocked out.

My thoughts exactly.