SNEAK PREVIEW

[phancucchin@aol.com]

Hey, anyone else up for a "Let's go do Steve's housework so he can work on CMBB more" road trip? (That is said only one quarter jokingly!)[/QB]

I can prepare my Mung bean soup and spring rolls.

Perhaps M. Dorosh can bring his big store model with the black uniform? maybe he can sew a historically correct uniform for himself too? maybe perhaps the dress of Eva Braun he can wear with the liederhosen socks? he can dance for our pleasure?

i see about the hulldown now i think. can the hulldown move be after a fast move or other command move? example is; move quick behind building and then hulldown move toward the wall. or is it hulldown move toward a enemy place? do you point out the place to get the hull down to is the question?

[ July 05, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: phancucchin@aol.com ]

[Panzer Leader]

Wow, you mean when the Russians start a 'human-wav' we get treated to a loud and gripping "Urrah!" That would be so FECKING amazing!

[Barrold]

I did not get to play the Russian side so my impressions are limited to being on the receiving end of soviet weaponry.

Command and control extends the morale concepts familiar to infantry units to the armoured units and it profoundly alters the way these units are considered. Rune definitely emphasized the need to now think in platoons of vehicles. Losing the platoon leader has real effects on the ability to aggressively assert themselves. The greener the unit it stands to reason, the more pronounced the loss of leadership effect.

Since the entire soviet TOE is new to the CM world, there are lots of new units to gawk at. I personally did not see any units I did not expect to see based on the previous statements from BFC

[ July 05, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: barrold713 ]

[CrapGame]

Capt,

You would be right... if they had marketed CMBB to an audience that wasn't already a virtual lock to buy the product. Sort of a preaching to the choir bit.

The bulk of the people on this forum are already sold on the game. Marketing to us board lurkers would have been a waste of the marketing budget...

And the comparison to GI Combat? I won't be the first to go there. The graphics look slick, but so did Close Combat IV. GI Combat has got a lot to prove that it isn't just Close Combat Episode XXVII before I buy it.

[Spanish Bombs]

Wow, I hadn't read through this thread thoroughly after yesterday, but it appears to have taken a few twists.

If I could jump in here, since I was one of the fortunate to make it over to Rune's yesterday, although my stay there was not as long as some others. First off, thanks much for the hospitality Rune, it was even extended to my wife and daughter (who loved the dogs BTW), when they arrived a little earlier than planned to pick me up. (For the record, I used the 'Honey, I just opened a beer, can I stay a little longer' technique to extend my stay - worked like a charm.)

I think it bears reporting that CMBB is far from CMBO in Russia. For example, when I jumped right into a scenario I used the "run" command to move some infantry within a factory building, which was a mistake. Even though I was just looking to precipitate some action and get some firing going, it is important to remember that there are a slew of new movement commands available, and as far as I can tell, the use of the wrong command could have devestating results - think of running into a mass of Russian infantry without firing your weapons necessarily, as opposed to advancing to contact.

The visuals were stunning, most noteworthily the T-34s (which are available in some of the screenshots) and the doodaded wheatfield. I was playing with a PzIVG at one point, and like Rune mentioned above, it appeared to be out of some '60s hallucination because the textures were still being worked on.

I had a taste of a second scenario playing with Barrold (hey, did we win?) that was set up as a Russian counterattack in 1941. I'll post some more details later, but suffice it to say that surviving the prep barrage, then facing an onslaught of infantry (I suspect this was where the 'human wave' was implemented), and T-34s and KV-1s? contacts was going to be a daunting task, especially when one comes to grips with the limitations inherent in the German AT-gun selection.

Finally, my overall general impression was 100% favorable. I will say that there will be a 'learning curve' necessary, with all the new commands and techniques available. It won't be a steep curve, but it will still take some adjusting to, as the number of tools in our respective toolboxes will be greatly enhanced. I've been playing CMBO for about 20 months now, and I still find new and really cool things in the game. From what I saw yesterday, I completely suspect that we will all be saying the same thing about CMBB for years - the scope, ambition and performance are all breathtaking.

[Barrold]

Covered arcs are very easy to set up and use. You can easily see the LOS of the unit and you simply click once to set one point of the arc and click again to finish the move.

Regarding spotting of MGs and ATGs, there does seem to be a true difference, but as to the precise variables, I am not sure. The way they work is much more in line with the wishes of the board. It truly adds another dimension to the realism of the play. I heard many comments on how just these couple of components will eliminate much of what people consider 'gamey' tactics.

The human wave was impressive as was the ability to put a stop to such nonsense.

Movement remains much the same in concept, but the flexibility that has been added by way of the new commands will give players a whole new outlook on their abilities. In this manner, a huge amount of depth has been inserted into the system.

Let's see...what else?

Oh yes...tanks still explode occasionally and how impressive this is depends on whether they are yours or not.

I did get to play the AI for most of a scenario that displayed the new extreme fog of war. Unfortunately, I don't think this is enough experience to make a thorough assessment. By the time I had to leave, it was progressing towards its objectives and the FOW made it much more difficult to accurately assess exactly how the situation was developing. Sometimes I knew exactly what happened, sometimes I thought something happened, and sometimes I had no clue what happened. As I mentioned before, this too adds another layer of depth and enhances the gameplay nicely.

More as I think about the questions.

BDH

[Andreas]

Originally posted by rune:

you haven't lived until you have seen a Panzer IIIJ that looks likes it was on LSD in the 60s.

Also known as 'Crappy clown-tanks of death'. They are my favourites, I wish they could stay this way.

[rune]

Capt,

There be one fatal flaw with your plan. I approached them, as I did with CMBO. Steve gave his blessing but didn't think people would come over on such short notice. My reasons? I put them to work to test a few things from a newbies perspective. Sometimes an outside "audit" so to say keeps one's scenario making honest.

Some other general answers, then like the BFC gang, no more from me since I have lots to do.

Trenches, yes, Naval Infantry, yes, Partisans, yes. Hull down can be added after any other move, the tank will then find a hull down location to the spot you picked. Conscript infantry has less commands then other units. Yep, they sure do scream when they charge in a Human Wave. As someone else said that I mentioned, tanks MUST be though of in platoons, lose the platoon tank, and command delays get nasty. I will let the others answer more, but ask about wire/radio FOs.

Rune

Rune

Originally posted by The_Capt:

Ahh the sweet stench of marketing....

If there is a more souless occupation I haven't seen it yet.

OK my turn.

First of all what all you monkeys have to realize that though CM may be our substitute for sex, sunlight, life fulfilment..whatever.

To BFC, BTS, BST..whatever, it is a business. And businesses, though the needs of desperate nerds like us may be in forefront in their minds, like to make a thing called money.

So we have CM. Big gamble at the start and Steve and gang hit paydirt. "Ta Da" a niche market with overlapping comsumer base.

They made good and could afford to exploit their market penetration (uhuhuhu He said "penetration") by developing another game. Not an add on but a whole new step forward.

Now here is the thing BTC (or whatever) has competition and it is beginning to heat up in the kitchen.

G.I. Combat is but the first which is going to begin to crowd into this territory. So now Steve and gang have to behave, quite rightly, like there is competition. (BTW fellas if you don't..you should). So release dates become very important. It tells the other guy when you are ready and allows them to work off of that.

Now G.I. Combat is due out Nov this year, probably will be part of the X-mas blitz.

So BFC is going to have to release before that in order to get a jump on. It should be early enough to allow their consumer base time to save up and buy both. Cause nobody wants to force the consumer to choose in a niche market.

I would say Sep is about as late as they can leave it but I do not have access to their customer demographic database.

BUT if BC goes ahead and starts to blab about such and such a date. It first of all gives away their development time and also gives initiative to the other guys. As well as leads to a lot of bugging from this forum which can be a pain.

Now the lads aren't stupid, or if they are, they are lucky which is almost better. The Sneak Preview happened because it was a marketing ploy. Yup that is right, we have all just been targeted..how did it feel?

Now unless NDAs were signed and I doubt they were, word is going to leak out on the game and what it can do and probably when it will be ready. BUT BTS is comfortable about that and really would like word of mouth to do its magic. I suspect because the lads lack the big budget marketing money the competition might have.

So the bottom line is settle. This is all part of the process. BFC has invested a hell of a lot into this game and they can do what they think is best. If you don't like hints or suspense go do something else.

BFC has good reasons for what they are doing (if being a little Col Flag-like at times) and they also have good reasons not to make public what they are doing.

I guess the question is do you want BFC to get wiped out in a few yrs. If Bill Gates and his Stormtroopers marched in and added sunflare, tracer richochette and dust along with the same game for $45 bucks at Wal-Mart, half this freakin board will leave and then another small gaming company will fold or be bought out.

We will lose a lot, the personal touch in particular.

So settle..Sep at the latest or they are going to hurt themselves. Now go play CMBO or maybe even go outside...

Just a few words from your local marketing slimeball..

[Barrold]

Hiya SB

It was nice to meet you and your family yesterday and I concur 100% with your post.

Unfortunately, we did not finish that scenario, but I am of the belief that we stood a good chance of prevailing. We saved the game in order to check out the scenario exhibiting the new aspects of extreme FOW.

As we saved, the Russian infantry attack was stalled as our machineguns were incrementally unleashed on the host of advancing conscripts. The limited AT resources have not yet revealed themselves as the armor had not advanced to contact.

This showed me the importance of not separating these two supporting types of units. Without the infantry, I think he was going to have trouble dealing with what we would be able to throw at him. Without tank support, the machineguns and hidden infantry popping up and laying waste, the charging infantry was quick to become suppressed and turn around. Even with limited resources, a vigorous and desperate defense becomes even more of a rush than previously experienced. It was a sight to see all our guys open up on that human wave. Oh yeah!

We saw the importance of staying in cover whenever possible, and why it is a good practice to go over the ground during setup phase to ensure units were set up in the best defensive postion...hull down and reverse slope if possible.

The factories were massive and the mix that should be available will make for excellent urban scenarios.

I just wish I had a lot more time to find out more.

BDH

[Spanish Bombs]

Originally posted by rune:

Capt,

I will let the others answer more, but ask about wire/radio FOs.

Rune

Oh yeah, wire/ radio FOs. In the factory scenario I mentione above, I had a rocket FO who had a decent target of massed Russian infantry (contacts, mostly as I was playing extreme FOW). Falling back on my CMBO habits, I was moving the FO to a place where he could see his targeted building before issuing the targeting order (with the help of a commander). The next movement phase, I hit the 'T' key for targeting, and hear the error sound. Hey, Rune, what's this?

Anyhow, the FO was a wire FO, and not a radio FO. Therefor, whenever I move him, I have to account for the time it takes to move the wire, reconnect and make contact with the offboard artillery. In other words, there is another delay that has to be taken into account for the wire FO that is not inherent in the radio FO. Pretty nifty.

[Spanish Bombs]

Originally posted by rune:

Sometimes an outside "audit" so to say keeps one's scenario making honest.

[Barrold]

Yes! The FOs seem to be fitted with two types of communications. Radio and by wire.

Both can be moved of course, but the delay will be much greater when moving a wired FO to represent the amount of time needed to drag that stinkin' wire to the new position.

Layers...its all about adding layers of detail and accuracy to an already good system. Whatever the limits of the current engine, from doing their homework, listening to the customers, and making this such an obvious labor of love, a whole new experience is wrung out in such a way that makes this a very satisfying game.

BDH

[Michael Dorosh]

Wire and Radio FOs sound very cool; more and more Squad Leader stuff creeping in, which I like.

[OGSF]

Regarding the wire FOs', can the wire be cut by artillery? And if it can, can it be repaired, or a delay created while it is repaired?

If I understood correctly about the 88mm AT guns, I am pleased to learn that they have become the effective anti-tank instruments they were historically.

Someone else asked, and no reply yet, is there a "convoy" or "follow the leader" command for vehicles?

And finally, any clue on whether vehicles can ford small streams?

Final finally, can pontoon bridges be deployed during a game?

The very last finally, how does smoke behave? Does it drift? Can troops "area fire" into smoke?

Thansk for any answers, and thanks Rune for creating this opportunity for the lucky few!

[MajorTaktik]

Remove the HULLDOWN command, please. IMO, it should be a skill of the player and not be automated for someone. It is an artificial way of giving someone a skill that they might not be so good at. If they can't find a good HULLDOWN spot, then too bad. CM is the ultimate in rewarding good tactics and punishing bad. Will there now be no reward for finding superior HD spots with good LOS on your own? If the AI does this for you, then where is the sense of satisfaction when one or your tanks brews an enemy tank. I will think, "Damn, that wasn't me that found that spot, but the AI". And if an enemy tank, HD with great LOS brews one of my tanks, I will think, "Hmmm. It is nice that the AI found such great spot for my opponent. I wonder if he could have done that for himself?"

Just my take on the HD command.

Craig

[Pvt. Ryan]

MT, keep in mind that we are commanders of all the forces at our disposal, not tank commanders. We order our tanks to assume hull down positions and it up to them to do it. Of course, you can still manually find your own hull down position instead of relying on the hull down command. Plus, as well as the feature may work, it is still an AI function and is probably not as good at finding the perfect hull down position as a human player would be. But then again, maybe it is.

BFC, keep up the good work. I too look forward to the day when CMBB constitutes my entire life. Not that I have much of one otherwise.

[Le Tondu]

Wow! :eek:

Now I understand. Thanks to all.

Does that smoke drift? and can troops area fire into it?

[Prinz Eugen]

Ah, why bitch about BTS/BFC/etc keeping their little secrets ? I, for one wouldn't want to know EVERYTHING there is to this game, not just yet. I think it's great to discover the neatest bits by yourself, playing the game. It's a lot cooler than knowing all the stuff in advance !

I'm thankful of all new bones and screenshots I get, but at this stage they're not all that important anymore. I'm convinced CM:BB will be something else; after that I don't think I'll be even looking at the competition. Come on, who really cares about G.I Combat or the Maddox Games' offering? CM:BO is a lot better than those two combined !

Let's give Steve & Co. a little room to breathe ! No matter how we plead, it isn't going to make any difference. CM:BB will be out when it's done.

And sure, I'll be looking forward to that !

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I would just like to say thank you to BFC and BTS for letting a few of the CM consumers have a go with CMBB. I am not in any way upset that I was unable to attend, nor am I jealous of those that could. I wish I could have been there for sure, but it is a huge planet we live on, and the event had to take place somewhere!

I am patient, yet excited for the release of what is probably going to be the best wargame experience I have had since CMBO. However, I do not expect a release date if BFC is unable to give one at this time. I also understand the desire to keep some of the game hidden to the general public if only to give us something to be wowed with when we boot it up for the first time.

As for the whiners that felt they are being cheated, I say: Get a life! Step away from the screen, and go do something else insted of waiting and crying about this game. Go have sex with your partner, or watch TV, or go to work, or drink a beer, or mow the lawn, or help out at the local mission, or pick some goobers; whatever. JUST STOP YOUR G**D**M WHINING ABOUT THIS GAME!!

Oh, and an extra thanks to the lucky ones that could attend! Youir insites have made the wait that much more exiciting!! :eek: Thanks!

Especally you Lord Dragon, you son of a w****!

[Frenchy]

Ok, techinical stuff: what system was used, ie speed, ram, video ram, graphics card, OS, etc and is this to be assumed as the minimum requirements? I am looking to buy a new system very soon and would like to know just what may be required.

Thanks.

[Spanish Bombs]

A couple of answers:

re: smoke drifting, that PzIVg I mentioned above was brewed up rather quickly by a T-34 (albeit after escaping a molotov cocktail attack), and I did look at the smoke for drifting, but did not see it. The reason it was not drifting, though, is because apparently there was no wind in that particular scenario. Later on, there was a smoke column that was drifting in another scenario.

re: wire FOs having the wire cut by arty or other means, I asked the same thing myself, and as I understand it that is not modelled, or perhaps it is included as a possible calculation in the inherent time delay.

I saw the post here describing 20 hour work days on CMBB, and Rune attested to a similar burden including his RL job. All I can say is that the work is really showing, and thanks for the effort.

[The_Capt]

Originally posted by CrapGame:

Capt,

You would be right... if they had marketed CMBB to an audience that wasn't already a virtual lock to buy the product. Sort of a preaching to the choir bit.

The bulk of the people on this forum are already sold on the game. Marketing to us board lurkers would have been a waste of the marketing budget...

And the comparison to GI Combat? I won't be the first to go there. The graphics look slick, but so did Close Combat IV. GI Combat has got a lot to prove that it isn't just Close Combat Episode XXVII before I buy it.

This is a large assumption. It is true the zealots hang out here but so do the "unconverted". The idea behind word of mouth is have the "coals" or the guys who will stay very hot when lit and burn for you forever and they will then start fires everywhere.

Rune,

Hey just because it was your idea doesn't make it a bad one. And again smart or lucky BTS has taken advantage of it. No advertising is bad advertising.

Lastly one has to think of customer loyalty. If you don't build it when times are good it will bite you in the ass when things go South. So keeping your zealots "enticed" is not a bad idea either but it has to be tailored with all of the other crap I was talking about.

Anyway it was free advise, take it or leave it. I am in no hurry to see CMBB as to what CMBO did to my spare time the last time...hell it still is...now imagine two of them....

[Barrold]

Rune gave out the specifics of his system on page 5 I think, but it didn't have to be state of the art to run it nicely. If you are buying a new machine, I would think any standard computer purchased new would be more than capable of handling CM:BB based on rune's setup.

IIRC the minimum video card was 16MB, but I am not the right source for this requirement, this is just a recollection.

As for any complaining or such, I am just glad to have been able to go on a lark and see what the progress is currently at. My completely independent and non-official opinion is that we were looking at a pretty complete package. Details need to be added and such, but as the official post said, if they are letting jamokes like us look at it and play with it, it should be a good hint as to the progress.

I just had fun and was glad I went.

Regarding convey movement and the smoke, I am going to politely defer to the official announcements of features because I don't want to confirm or deny something that might be added or modified. I liked what I saw and I don't know how much I didn't see.

BDH

[xerxes]

wired and radio FOs? - very cool. Platoon leaders for tanks? - very cool. MGs that can't be simply rushed by a platoon - very cool.

I hope we get a release warning of a least a couple of weeks so I can finish up all my CMBO games.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by xerxes:

wired and radio FOs? - very cool. Platoon leaders for tanks? - very cool. MGs that can't be simply rushed by a platoon - very cool.

I hope we get a release warning of a least a couple of weeks so I can finish up all my CMBO games.

I shuold imagine the shipping delay would settle that problem for you.