Richie Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Or should that read 'bored' games... Man... I used to play ASL religiously. I haven't played in years. CM is just SO MUCH EASIER. Perhaps a bit more fun too. I can war against my mates and kill them every day... The best bit is it's Alt-S and it's saved! Ooh, and the rules. Either you can do it or you can't! *sigh* Am I the only one? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioneyes Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Originally posted by Richie: Or should that read 'bored' games... Man... I used to play ASL religiously. I haven't played in years. CM is just SO MUCH EASIER. Perhaps a bit more fun too. I can war against my mates and kill them every day... The best bit is it's Alt-S and it's saved! Ooh, and the rules. Either you can do it or you can't! *sigh* Am I the only one? Nah, I can't do it either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Hi, “Has CM killed ASL and other board games?” Yes! I too have all the Squad Leader/ASL games and in the second half of the seventies played SL two or three times a week. However… from the early nineties I started to dream of some developer producing a computerised version of SL. Close Combat did not quite come off…. in my view, but was a noble try. Maybe the technology was not there in the mid-nineties. CM though is my dream come true… I never expected such a brilliant conversion to the PC format. Although I was a huge fan of SL/ASL, CM has so many advantages I have no interest in playing ASL again. But will always have very fond memories of trying to kill my chums cardboard men! All the best, Kip. PS. I still have all the SL/ASL games…and no plans to throw them away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 "Has CM killed ASL and other board games?" No, I still like to play Trivial Pursuit with friends. Actually I have never played any board wargames, but I have noticed that serious IGO-UGO games don't really excite me anymore after CM. IGO-UGO, when compared to WEGO, feels so artificial and out of this world that it kills the atmosphere. Beer & pretzel games like Panzer General are still great, though, because there the fun factor was always the priority above realism. I'm sure there are such board wargames too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 "Yes" to killing ASL, "No" to killing other board games. I wouldn't go back to individual soldier - squad - platoon - company scale board games, but I haven't yet found a computer based game involving battalions - regiments - divisions that I enjoy as much as, say, AH's board game, "Battle of the Bulge." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 I'm currently playing the Santa Maria Infante op for CMAK. I also noticed that Critical Hit has produced a boardgame version, using semi-ASL type rules covering the exact same battle. Due to the hilly and forested nature of the terrain, I can only imagine the LOS discussions that this battle would generate in boardgame form. I suggested to my opponent that we'd spend so much time arguing LOS, that we would never finish the op! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 And anyone who has seen the Dorosh ASL mods for CM will testify that ASL finished off CM! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMik1 Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 No ASL is not killed off. I am a member of a ASL group in Houston and it's running strong and many members just came back from a Texas tourny in Austin that I was told was well attended. If you visit sites like Web-Grognard or The Wargamer, you see board games are doing well. Also on a site I vist alot now is Armchair General and they have a forum that has a board game section and those guys would disagree with you big time. I play CM alot and I love it. I play computer wargames all the time now, but I do play a board game from time to time. That is where I started my hobby. BigMik1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 For all of my mates SL/ASL died the day CM appeared. As well as being a much better game, CM means we actually play a lot more wargames than we used to, courtesy of the PBEM game. I've always got a game or two going. But the very best thing is the lack of acrimonious arguments about rules, lines of sight, etc. One good friend in particular relied upon his capacity to argue and fudge the rules more than any other tactic! And predictably enough he's the one who now plays CM the least. However, I still have a complete set of all the SL games tucked away in good order in the cupboard, should we suffer a month-long power cut! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Personally, for the most part, yes it has. With time constraints and lack of an area to setup a board game (that will remain undisturbed), the computer wargames have been a dream. There's still something about the old boardgames that I miss though. I liked being able to sit back and look at the entire map without having to "scroll" and "click" on units to see their properties. Something about actually holding the counters and rolling the dice as well. I recently brought out of storage a bunch of my old games. I'm working at the moment to convert "Patton's Best" and "Carrier" to the computer in a faithful recreation. Due to copyright, I obviously can't distribute these but it's been fun work so far. On a related note, JASL/VASL and Cyberboard have been some nice tools for playing the old games without having to actually set them up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 ASL didn't die altogether but it took an awful beating, not only by CM, it started before that. I guess many of us who played ASL grew up and got jobs, got families, moved around, found less opportunity to have a large table perpetually occupied by small paper thingies (think kids, cats etc). And few have the time needed to play ASL among the old ASL Grogs I knew. Just cant spend a whole weekend on that anymore. I loved SL and ASL, really did, and am following the progress of VASL. But time. It takes 30 seconds to start up a CM scenario, people need not be in the same place at all and access to other players is vast (comparatively). Unless playing IP games, you need not attend the game at the same time either. This means a lot to people with families and jobs. Means we can go on playing, and the truth is that without CM, we couldn't have. But other boardgames? No, I haven't had a dinner at my place where we didn't play a boardgame yet, and I have lots of dinners Of course, we're talking another type of games here. Anyone for Maharadja? Cheers Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 My son just pulled out "Tank Battle" and demanded a game. John Sands say it's "The game of strategy & planning" But I think by the time he's old enough to play ASL, I'll point him at CM instead (Who knows, maybe CMx2 may be out by then! ooooo - sorry, BFC, just couldn't resist - I'm in no rush) GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallybob Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Ahh, I have a dusty bookshelf dedicated to Panzer Leader/Blitz, SL, ASL (and all its expansions). Kampfgruppe started what CM has finished, for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallybob Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 The sole exception is that I teach International relations to my Advanced Placement Government class by using "Diplomacy". I have been told that at 20 year reunions in the future, fistfights will develop because of "Diplomacy". I kind of like that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platehead Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 ASL was great but CM has replaced it. Miss too elevation obstructions to LOS, lose track of movement points, rules got too complicated to remember them all. ( I still remember a joke question in ‘The General’ about whether a it was better to have a British officer with a swagger stick or an umbrella when in a sandstorm) Friends that played moved away, no time for the setup if they were in town, etc. I have fond memories though of the scenarios like 'The Guards Counterattack' from the original SL. There was even a Belgian officer named Berwart that went berserk, charged, and killed two of my motorcycle squads when Crescendo of Doom came out. My buddy still reminds me of that to this day. Lucky dice rolls! In fact, I lived near Baltimore and we used to go downtown to East Read Street where Avalon Hill had its office in an old row house. In the basement they had shelves of parts and other goodies. We could buy seconds and assorted odds and ends for all the games. Those were good old days. Then one day I became nostalgic for ASL twenty years after playing my last game. While doing a search I came across CM. As I played the demo for CMBO it was like the clouds parted and sunlight illuminated my computer. I haven't looked back since and I can now hook up with the old gang and play on. [ July 23, 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Platehead ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted July 24, 2004 Author Share Posted July 24, 2004 I've been trying to get round to a certain mates place to finish 'A Bridge Too Far' for about 2 years now. I really wanted to get round there over the last 2 weeks as I was on holidays... The map is laminated and taped to a table and all the generic counters are stuck to the board. Except the rubble where I've printed out rubble hex stickers and stuck them on the map to save clutter... It will take me about 2 hours to set all of Frost's Tommies up. I work shift and he works days. He lives on the other side of town and has no car... (He also joins the navy at the end of the year.) But, man, we swapped about 2 or 3 PBEMs a day and played TCP 3 times. We're finishing 'When Worlds Collide' from the Excellent Stalingrad Pack... CM is great! I do miss the dice though... there's nothing like seeing bad luck first hand! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 "I lived near Baltimore and we used to go downtown to East Read Street where Avalon Hill had its office in an old row house."--Platehead Good ole' Read St! You also spelled it right! THAT brings back many memories. I was very active with SL/ASL, became a playtester and authored a few scenarios. My TEN large cardboard boxes of my ASL counter trays--loaded to the brim so tight that I need paper clips to affix the lids; mapboards; deluxe boards (although I never really got into this version that much); rulebooks, BIG ringed binder with all(well, of course not ALL) of the scenarios with each page tucked in its protective plastic sleeve; cardboard tubes for all of the HASL maps; and plus all of the "bootleg" (some call it "third party" I call it "pirated")ASL products from various sources; stored in the attic of my good friend's house in New Jersey (Now this is my LONGEST sentence I have ever written! ). It has been sitting there now for almost three years. How much money was spent for all of that? Yes, CM has killed off ASL for me. Actually my new job had a hand in that also (I've traded in ASL for ESL) owing that the system is far from portable. I doubt if I will EVER play a scenario again. The enduring legacy of ASL for me is all of the friendships made just by sitting across the table from my many opponents. These friendships are still strong today, and many of these friends play CM. Friendships are made on "common bonds" and ASL (and now CM) provide this. I do miss ASL Oktoberfest, held every Fall in Ohio. You would walk into a hotel and recognize half of the 200 participants. With CM there are no counters to sort, resort, or worse--pick up from the floor when you "dump a tray", and a small scenario does not take all day to finish. When ASL/SL came out I sold off or stored my other board games. When Talonsoft came out with its "Campaign Series" (East Front, West Front, et al.)I started to play less and less. Now CM has replaced everything, and if I play another game, it is a PC game. Hard to imagine that Squad leader first came out in the Fall of 1977. SL/ASL was a big part of my past, CM is the present, will CMx2 be the future? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Puppchen Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 I played SL and ASL for years. It was hard finding good opponents and due to the HP and other rules I couldn't play a lot of the scenarios solitare. When Kampgruppe came out that was the "big bang" followed by Panzer General and then of course the whole CM series. I do miss "The General" where they took all the scenarios so seriously. They took so much time to setup and play (right) that it was worth really thinking about it. Now that a scenario is up and running in 30 seconds as mentioned above some of that analysis is gone because you can always just start another one. One thing I liked about the ASL and SL series are the national characteristics. For whatever reason in CM a squad is pretty much a squad. Give me a squad of free french with rifles and an LMG or a squad of russian infantry that are all regular and they all act the same (excepting the human wave, of course). I really liked the way they attempted to "build in" the national characteristics that REALLY DID matter, such as the British refusal to cower, the Russian occasion of going berserk, and the plethora of German leaders, and the Americans having plentiful ammo. Crescendo of Doom was a great name for a game - must give them credit for that - sometimes they actually got close to "art", not just a game. I loved ASL because it was as good as it could get back then and now CM is as good as it gets (in terms of realism, maybe not graphics) today. God bless 'em both. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 I played SL/ASL for years, although the last time I played ASL was probably 12-14 years ago. So, no, CM didn't kill ASL off for me; it was already dead due to lack of opponents and opportunity to play. What CM did was *resurrect* the SL/ASL experience by making it something that I could play again. Despite the time required to set up the games and the danger of knocking over the counters, there really is something beautiful about board games - the being able to see the entire map at one; the tactile sense of the counters; and the involvement that comes from rolling the dice yourself for every shot. Plus, there were many excellent scenarios, where victory was often decided by close combat in a victory hex on the last turn of the game. Plus something - maybe all of the dice rolling - gave SL/ASL a kind of role-playing aspect that CM doesn't duplicate. However, CM is much more realistic (i.e., FOW), and is the only realistic option for playing anything after coming home from work at 7. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86smopuim Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 cm killed A/SL for me. A/SL was my favorite game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 SL/ASL was definitely killed off for me by CM. It's not just that CM is better; it's the practicality of playing the games. I discovered CM about 18 months to 2 years ago and I have played (and finished) more games in that time than SL/ASL games played over about 15 years! I was actually looking for a computer version of ASL but I assumed one didn't exist. CM actually has its roots in ASL but for some reason it passed me by - It's not something it says on the CM box...If it did I would have probably discovered it a lot earlier. Still, the SL/ASL boxes look nice on the shelf... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryInk Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 For me CM didn't kill ASL off. I only ever played it twice and it was awful. A flat board? Hexes? Chits? Matrices and tables for everything, it seemed, from suppression to depression. Nooooooo CM opened wargaming up to an intuitive approach - dammit - and I've been addicted since. All the rules lawyering and arguing over measured distances is gone. Nirvana. I would still like to fight Diplomacy again... maybe even Russian Campaign over a couple of six-packs and chips; but just for the laughs... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Kulin Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 For me, it was Steel Panthers that killed off Squad Leader (I didn't much care for Close Combat as it got to be too much of a click-fest when the action got hot). SP was, in my opinion, had a lot of the look of SL (hexes, top down view, individual vehicles and squads) and similar style of game play (I Go, You Go, moving one unit at a time). I played it heavily until CMBB came out and have not played it since, so I guess in a sense CM did kill off ASL for me, only with an intermediate step of SP in between. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: I played SL/ASL for years, although the last time I played ASL was probably 12-14 years ago. So, no, CM didn't kill ASL off for me; it was already dead due to lack of opponents and opportunity to play. What CM did was *resurrect* the SL/ASL experience by making it something that I could play again.Exactly. Tried to introduce many friends to SL over the years, we would politely play through a game or two and never discuss it again. Others claimed to be really "into" it, but after they purchased SL, it was up to me to obtain ASL and all the expensive modules, interpret the rules, and then have to defend the rules when their flamethrower ran out on turn 2 and they were all pissed and never wanted to play again! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma: And anyone who has seen the Dorosh ASL mods for CM will testify that ASL finished off CM! You obviously don't know art when you see it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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