Smoke, Dust, Arty, and You

[Treeburst155]

Combined Arms,

A blind spotter for the rest of the battle!? I REALLY hope you're wrong about this. I'll have to test it when I get time.

Treeburst155 out.

[Holman]

I'm hoping that someone from BTS will weigh in here. If true, this is a bug that needs urgent attention.

[Steve McClaire]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

A blind spotter for the rest of the battle!? I REALLY hope you're wrong about this. I'll have to test it when I get time.

I suspect he was continually adjusting off the 'blind' fire mission, rather than waiting one turn to get a new fire mission.

[Holman]

I've just done a test of my own, and my results don't match what's been posted here.

My test:

I made a flat, very dry, arid rocks map on which I placed two Priests and three 81mm Forward Observers. I tried various permutations of targetting the FOs on a bunker (facing away) at about 500m range. I used the Priests as area fire to set up dust clouds right in the LOS of the FOs at various times in the targetting cycle. All FO fire was done one at a time so I wouldn't confuse one guy's fire with another's.

1) When I used the Priests to raise dust that blocked the FO's line of sight *before* he targeted the bunker, the FO's rounds landed far away. In other words, it was blind fire pure and simple, just as if smoke or terrain had made LOS impossible.

2) When I targeted the bunker with clear LOS and *then* had the Priests block the FO's LOS with dust during the waiting period, the FO's fire landed in a correctly targetted pattern centered on the target. In other words, blocking the LOS during the waiting period seemed not to throw off the targetting. Spotting rounds fell and the FO used these to get his rounds on target even if he couldn't get LOS to target at that moment. (i.e. I did not see the bug that people are talking about here.)

3) When I raised dust, targetted blind through it, and then let the dust fade *before* the spotting rounds landed, the spotting rounds worked and the FO's rounds were on target.

4) Just to check, I changed the map to wet ground and got all the same results using smoke rounds instead of dust.

5) I repeated all of this at least three times. Not an exhaustive test, to be sure, but consistent.

The upshot of all this is that dust only threw the FO's aiming off when it blocked LOS to an extent that made it blind fire from the beginning (just as smoke always has). I didn't get any of the weird effects described in this thread, such as retargeting being inaccurate.

Dust seems to be working just as smoke always has. I saw nothing of the bug we're discussing. Did I do something wrong in my test?

[ March 25, 2004, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Martyr ]

[Panzer76]

Perhaps the problem presents itself when the dust / smoke blocks los to the spotting round?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

Perhaps the problem presents itself when the dust / smoke blocks los to the spotting round?

From what I read here, do we have

Spotting round has fallen => strike will hit target as intended (what would surprise me, as I'd guess more to "observed spotting round has fallen =>...)

or is it only

No spotter round => no correct targetting (except on TRPs)

If at least the latter holds, we have an indicator to cancel the strike if it is due in the first 29 seconds of a turn (as the spotting round fell 30 secs earlier).

Gruß

Joachim

[Larsen]

Martyr, try to walk your FO before targeting or after the first strike lands on target cancel it, wait for a minute and repeat the same procedure again (with Priest raising dust). It looks like the first strike if FO didn't move does not suffer from the problem of temporarily blocked LOS.

[Treeburst155]

Martyr,

I wish my arty worked like yours.

Try testing a spotter with a longer waiting period. If the obstruction occurs near enough to the time the spotting rounds are fired, the strike will be good. This "safe" period could be as long as a minute.

Use a 105mm spotter and a Sherman. Give the spotter a target. In the same turn, order the Sherman to area fire at a point that will block spotter LOS. The strike should go completely haywire.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

I've done some more testing. I can get Martyr's results IF I use quick responding arty. Apparently, very short delay periods are not subject to the bug. If the waiting period goes over to the next turn, the strike goes haywire.

The latest bug definition:

Brief smoke and/or dust will cause an observed arty strike to be treated as a blind strike if the smoke/dust blocks spotter LOS at any time prior to the turn in which the first rounds are due to fall.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 26, 2004, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

Let's discuss spotting rounds here for a second. It is my opinion that spotting rounds serve no real purpose in the game. They are a visual nod to realism. If a strike is going to be on target, you will see spotting rounds. These spotting rounds can fall off target. It does not matter if they do. The strike will still be good. If you don't see any spotting rounds, you have a blind strike in action (or rockets). No spotting rounds means "off target".

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

Treeburst, this has been originally coded that way because off-target was only caused by deliberately targetting out of LOS - in that case a real-world spotter doesn't have to bother with spotting rounds either.

Now in CMAK and probably CMBB this mechanism has gone wrong. For a mission that is intended in LOS you would always get the spotting rounds. And if the spotting rounds are off you will fire new spotting rounds, not go FFE at a random place.

It seems to me that Charles' code accidentially "drifts" into the "intended-out-of-LOS" code path in that case.

Or in other words: right now there are two cases:

1a) targetting out of LOS, just go FFE off-target and player wants it that way

1b) targetting in LOS, player wants it on-target

But these two case were only correct for CMBO, for CMAK and CMBB we need three (even within this odd artillery model):

2a) player targets out of LOS

2b) player targets in LOS but LOS problems occur or spotting rounds fall off

2c) player targets in LOS and things work

Case 2b) is munched into 1a), but that is not correct, because you don't want it to go FFE off-target. It is in no way realistic to go FFE in that case.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Combined Arms,

A blind spotter for the rest of the battle!? I REALLY hope you're wrong about this. I'll have to test it when I get time.

Treeburst155 out.

I'm not sure about it by any means, but that was my perception. If it's true, it would prove there was a bug, I think. I'd set up a test myself

but I'm not sure I can duplicate the conditions you've created.

Steve McClaire

I suspect he was continually adjusting off the 'blind' fire mission, rather than waiting one turn to get a new fire mission.

This might be part of it...I cancelled the original mission and got back to the blue line with my spotter. But I didn't know you had to wait one turn to get a really new fire mission...assuming that's actually true. It might be worth testing, TB, if waiting a turn before starting a new mission makes any difference.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Steve McClaire

I suspect he was continually adjusting off the 'blind' fire mission, rather than waiting one turn to get a new fire mission.

This might be part of it...I cancelled the original mission and got back to the blue line with my spotter. But I didn't know you had to wait one turn to get a really new fire mission...assuming that's actually true. It might be worth testing, TB, if waiting a turn before starting a new mission makes any difference. [/QB]</font>

[MikeyD]

I just did my own artillery test and didn't exactly get consistent results. I set up a desert map with various 'regular' Brit artillery spotters in a trench 11,00m away from a cluster of buildings. Between them I had a dirt road racetrack for Stuarts to race around raising an obscuring dust cloud. I fired only on the 2nd turn each test. Here's the results:

- 4.2 inch mortar, 1 minute delay:

With no dust got a spotting round & rounds on target.

With dust after targeting no spotting round, rounds off target.

-------

- 7.2 inch artillery, 7 minute delay:

With no dust got a spotting round & rounds on target.

With dust after targeting that competely dissipated before the rounds fell got a spotting round & rounds on target.

With dust after targeting that diddn't dissipate before the rounds fell no spotting round, rounds off target.

-------

- 25 pdr artillery (both with and without radio), 3 minute delay:

With no dust got a spotting round & rounds on target.

With dust after targeting that competely dissipated before the rounds fell got a spotting round & rounds on target.

With dust after targeting that didn't dissipate before the rounds fell got a spotting round & rounds on target(!)

Whatever the spotting through dust problem is, it isn't exactly consistent.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

It is my opinion that spotting rounds serve no real purpose in the game.

Treeburst155 out.

Except to warn my Gebirgsajger platoon to scatter before the main barrage comes in next turn, Mike.

Steve

[CombinedArms]

With variation in test results seeming to depend on very subtle differences in test conditions, I wonder if TB could send a few of us who have show interest a copy of his test course and a brief statement of how he conducted the test. I'd be interested to try this out...

As for my story above, the battle was a few months ago and I can't remember the exact conditions. I do remember trying various workarounds for the dust/blind spotting problem and ending up extremely frustrated. That's why I'd be interested to try a test in a consistent environment.

[Holman]

I've done another test, using exactly the same set-up as I outlined before, only this time I used 105mm arty spotters (3 min delay minimum) instead of the quicker 81mm mortar spotters. The results seem more consistent with the bug (if it is a bug) that has been described here.

1) Firing without dust, all is well.

2) Firing with dust between the FO and the target, rounds go way off.

3) When the dust clears, retargeting with the same FO (green line) still has rounds landing way off target. I noticed, however, that the subsequent (green line) shoots were all closer to the target than the first shoot.

There's still a possibility that things are working as they should. Is it perhaps intended that a shoot that has been way off in the first volley will still be off (although less so) with a green line adjustment? Maybe this is to model the fact that completely retargeting (blue line) is bound to be more accurate than adjusting an initially inaccurate shoot.

But that doesn't quite seem right. I would imagine that (in real life) the bad shoots would function as a whole series of spotting rounds off of which the FO is walking the shoot.

Still, the lesson is that, in the desert at least, an FO should completely retarget (blue line) whenever dust has thrown off the shoot.

I'm still hoping that BTS will weigh in here.

[ March 26, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Martyr ]

[MikeyD]

"...the lesson is that, in the desert at least, an FO should completely retarget (blue line) whenever dust has thrown off the shoot."

..Unless he's spotting for a 25 pounder per my deviant results! :confused:

[Treeburst155]

MikeyD,

Your on-target strike after intervening dust has dissipated is interesting. Here's what I think is happening, and what should be specifically tested for.

Perhaps the turn in which the first rounds are fired is the critical turn. If smoke or dust that has broken LOS is gone by the beginning of this turn, all is well. If smoke or dust appears AFTER the beginning of this turn, all is well. This would explain your results, and Martyrs (and mine)earlier success with the 81mm. IOW, the condition of spotter LOS at the BEGINNING of the turn in which the first rounds are due to fall determines whether the strike is on-target or not. This is what needs to be tested. In my previous tests, there has always been obstructed LOS at the BEGINNING of the turn in which the rounds were due to fall.

Redwolf,

I'm aware that spotting rounds were supposed to perform some actual function in CMBB; but I have never been convinced that they do. I've never seen a strike within LOS need to be adjusted, even when the spotting rounds fall off-target. The CMBB manual says different, but...

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

MikeyD,

Your on-target strike after intervening dust has dissipated is interesting.

The location of the FFE rounds is random and hence it can very well end up where it was targeted in first place.

[Holman]

Quick question: what does "FFE" stand for? Free-Flying Explosives?? No, really...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Martyr:

Quick question: what does "FFE" stand for? Free-Flying Explosives?? No, really...

"Fire for effect." It's the order the FO gives when he has gotten a spotting round on target and no more adjustments are needed. In essence, it's "Give me all you've got!"

Michael

[ March 26, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Boo Radley]

This just in: Emrys returns to the forums, property values plummet.

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The location of the FFE rounds is random and hence it can very well end up where it was targeted in first place.

I wonder what the chances of a blind strike coming down on-target is? It could be MikeyD got lucky. I'm going to spend some more time on this tonight.

Treeburst155 out.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Boo Radley:

This just in: Emrys returns to the forums, property values plummet.

Quiet, small fry. I might go away again and then the newbies wouldn't know what your sig line is all about.

Michael