Smoke, Dust, Arty, and You

[Treeburst155]

EDIT: Skip to page three of this thread for the truth on how smoke and dust affect your arty strikes.

I was wrong in my testing, or something has changed with 1.01. Contrary to my previous assertions regarding this bug, Dust WILL cause an observed arty strike to go haywire. I just lost a full platoon to a dust cloud 90 seconds earlier.

Either something has changed with 1.01 or it takes a fairly thick dust cloud to ruin a strike, and I just didn't have a thick enough cloud in my testing. With smoke, even a small amount will cause a strike to go haywire.

After I lost my platoon to an "observed strike", I did some more testing with 1.01. Here is my new bug definition:

If, at any time during the arty delay period, spotter LOS to the target point is obstructed by smoke or DUST, the strike will be treated by the computer as a blind strike. You WILL miss your target. This will happen with even very short interruptions of LOS.

Density of dust (maybe smoke too) may play a part; but we have no way to determine whether the obstructing clouds are thick enough to disrupt the strike or not. Duration of the cloud had no effect. One second of LOS block is all it takes, I think.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 27, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Disheartening news I must say. Thanks for taking the trouble to test it.

Regards

Jim R.

[Larsen]

That was my impression too. This makes targeting arty in desert very, very hard. Also this bug makes it virtually impossible to target with an arty the same area that you are pounding with direct HE.

[phil stanbridge]

The question is does BFC see this as a bug or a "feature"? It surely needs fixing.

[Redwolf]

I am also pretty sure there is LOS-blocking smoke/dust which blocks LOS in the orders phase but is never actually visible, even when using Shift-I to switch between different settings.

Or in other words, I am pretty sure it is not correct that this can only happen when a smoke round landed at the end of one turn and is about to cause visible smoke in the next turn.

Unfortunately this is in the tourney so I cannot post screenshots and savegames

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by Larsen:

That was my impression too. This makes targeting arty in desert very, very hard. Also this bug makes it virtually impossible to target with an arty the same area that you are pounding with direct HE.

This is what happened to me exactly. My own direct fire HE dust disrupted the strike. If this is intentional behaviour, arty is practically useless in the dry desert.

Redwolf,

Any invisible LOS blocks are detectable with the LOS tool in the orders phase. Spotter LOS can be checked each orders phase for these blocks. Now, if some invisible dust were to "appear" and disappear within the course of the movie, the player would have no way of knowing his strike has been messed up until rounds start falling. I really hope you are wrong on this one.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 23, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Redwolf,

Any invisible LOS blocks are detectable with the LOS tool in the orders phase. Spotter LOS can be checked each orders phase for these blocks. Now, if some invisible dust were to "appear" and disappear within the course of the movie, the player would have no way of knowing his strike has been messed up until rounds start falling. I really hope you are wrong on this one.

You misunderstood. What I think I had was LOS blocked in the orders phase as from the LOS tool, but neither in the movie before nor in the movie after there is any actually visible smoke or dust. It is just blocked out of what looks like thin air.

As I said, this is RoW so we have to wait until details can be posted.

If I am right then the player is not without hope to detect the condition, but it would be work, every active FO targetting would have to be checked every turn regardless of whether the graphics show dust/smoke or not.

As if I didn't have enough to do to unbutton/rebutton all my tank commanders every turn

[Treeburst155]

Not only does LOS have to be verified every orders phase; but the entire LOS line needs to be watched carefully during the entire movie for each targetting spotter. IOW, every spotter will likely require a separate viewing of the movie. You must watch very carefully for any brief interruption of his LOS. You must watch the entire LOS line for these interruptions. If the spotter is 1,500 meters from the target point, that's a lot of LOS line to check for momentary obstructions. If you miss one, and it's gone by the next orders phase, you will have no way of knowing that strike is now a blind strike.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Pertinent question:

What is the minimum duration of a smoke or dust cloud, starting the instant LOS is obstructed? If the answer is sixty seconds or more, the orders phase check of LOS is all that is necessary. Still, if a cloud appears within the first few seconds of a movie, and the spotting rounds are due to go out shortly thereafter, the bad strike is unavoidable.

Treeburst155 out.

[Schrullenhaft]

This problem was mentioned in the past. For the 1.01 patch we tested for it and I personally was unable to reproduce it with the beta patches. However my testing may have been a bit limited.

I used Regular British 2" mortars firing only smoke rounds to block the LOS of Regular German 81mm & 105mm spotters. With the targets plotted, the subsequent smoke rounds did not affect the accuracy of the strike (though LOS was confirmed to be blocked when checked). The smoke disappeared before the 105mm spotter dropped his rounds, but the accuracy remained. The 81mm spotters had their strikes occur while the smoke still blocked their LOS to the target, again accuracy was seemingly unaffected.

I can't remember the ground conditions. The test was set in North Africa, so it was most likely the defaut which is 'very dry'. Quite a bit of dust was strewn up with the strikes (potentially affecting the 105mm strike).

I'm not completely contradicting what people are seeing here. My testing was admittedly fairly quick and when I didn't reproduce the problem I went on to other things. I haven't examined this problem with the release 1.01 patch. Admittedly more runs may have been called for, but I was expecting the 'wild-ass guess' strike you normally get when LOS is blocked.

[ March 23, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Redwolf]

When the RoW is over I can present PBEM movies (unlike save-game movies they are reproduceable) that show

1) how the barrage goes off-target although LOS was clear at spotting round time, but blocked by what is probably 50mm mortar smoke during targeting (but not at the end of targeting)

2) adjustment in the next turn had it falling on the same off-target spot. I had to cancel and wait one minute idle and then target from scratch.

It is precisely as Treebursts says.

[Larsen]

Schrullenhaft, the way to see this bug clearly is the following.

Get a flat desert map with a few Shermans and a 81mm spotter. Target some area with the spotter (he would have a clear LOS to it) and target Sherman to the area just before where the spotter is aiming. Cancel Sherman area fire next turn. Your arty will fall in some arbitrary place. Reajustment does not help. the strike has to be canceled and retargeted next turn.

[Holman]

Question (probably naive):

Isn't it the case that artillery can go off-target even when the target is spotted cleanly by the FO? I recall having in happen in CMBB (i.e. no dust clouds). Retargeting *usually* brings the rounds closer, but there's still a chance of being off. I imagine it depends on the experience and state of the spotter.

Have you ruled this factor out in these dust tests?

[Treeburst155]

If the target is spotted cleanly, the rounds WILL hit the target. That is, unless smoke or dust interferes. If spotting rounds are fired, the strike will be good, no matter where they hit. Spotting rounds are your confirmation that the strike will be on target.

In the case of rockets (and blind strikes), there are no spotting rounds. Observed rocket strikes CAN require adjustment. Rockets do not work like other artillery.

Larsen's test described above will show the dust/smoke problem every time.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by Larsen:

.... Your arty will fall in some arbitrary place....

I don't think this is completely arbitrary. One or more specific locations have a higher probability of being hit. Those locations are YOUR troops. I'd almost bet on it.

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

Ok, so the precise definition of the bug is that the blocking of LOS during any time during the wait period does prevents the spotting rounds from being fired?

Adjusting seem to "remember" that LOS was blocked once and hence get no spotting rounds either and hence is off target as well, defeating the purpose of adjusting.

What about an injection of realism and not go FFE when the spotting rounds don't fall whether they should? It's not that a spotter would tell the battery "I have no idea where you idiots are shooting at but what the hell, pour it on".

Maybe a British spotter at 5.pm...

[Treeburst155]

Yes, blocked LOS results in a blind strike in every respect, as near as I can tell. Your smoke/dust corrupted strike is simply treated like you targetted blind. There are no spotting rounds.

I don't know how well arty strikes can be adjusted because I NEVER target blind unless it's a prep-bombardment or a TRP. Targetting blind is not worth it because I BELIEVE my own troops have a higher probability of being hit than if I had targetted them on purpose. In fact, I think you're guaranteed NOT to hit your own troops when targetting blind if you DO target them. This has not been tested; but I'll bet there is a punishment factor built in for targetting blind. IOW, your own troops are high on the list of "arbitrary" areas to get hit.

Treeburst155 out.

[Blow2]

I have also found this and what we need is exactly the opposite - all dust should be treated as a target registration mark. That's why they posted all those 'don't make dust' notices all over Normandy. Every time one side or the other created it, it brought down a stonk on that spot. If I see a big cloud of dust in the distance, I should be able to call down accurate artillery fire on it in pretty short order.

Maybe a patch?

[Holman]

I don't think it should work that way at the CM scale, Blow2. Spotting a dust cloud two miles away gives you the idea that a unit is over there, but I can't see how it would add accuracy to an FO's strike. The dust won't make the coordinates he has already given any more accurate.

[Blow2]

Registration doesn't make arty more accurate, just faster to bring down unsighted fire on co-ordinates, in my experience. It would also get round the fact that, currently, you can't get near dust even in LOS, since it treats arty fire as unsighted. Dust should allow spotters without a direct LOS to treat the target as sighted. That's why dust was so dangerous. At the moment, it is only useful as an indication of where the bad guys are - you can't actually DO anything about that with arty unless you can see it directly and plan fire for where you think the bad guys causing the dustcloud are heading. Even then, chances are the arrival of the dustcloud will cause your arty fire to be unsighted and land klicks away.

Treat dust as a registration mark and watch how that focuses the mind - correctly, imho - on how to move across desert or on dusty roads.

[John Kettler]

Blow2,

Excellent point about the, er, magnetic properties of dust, both procedurally and historically!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sitzkrieg]

I have just become a victim of this bug playing Fruhlingswind as the Germans.

I lost this scenario in the demo to a human player and wanted to try again against the AI to see how I screwed up.

Had everything timed perfectly for a coordinated infantry assault under supressing mortar, light artillery and heavy machine gun fire. Then the bug hit and wasted half my mortar spotters rounds off the map edge. At least they didn't come back on me.

I really hope BFC squashes this bug in the next patch. Arty becomes worthless in the desert or very dry conditions.

[MikeyD]

Reading this thread saved my butt last night. I was playing one of the old CMBO demo scenarios converted over the CMAK, and at one point I was targeting a suspected 88 emplacement with both artillery and mortars. After the first few mortar rounds hit I thought to myself 'uhoh' and immediately cancelled my artillery strike. The mortars had kicked up enough dust for the artillery spotter to lose LOS and there's every chance the artilley would'a gone entirely off-map.

I eventually got that 88 but the AI still managed to embarrass me. Apparently I'm not the world's best General.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

I have just become a victim of this bug playing .

I lost this scenario in the demo to a human player and wanted to try again against the AI to see how I screwed up.

Had everything timed perfectly for a coordinated infantry assault under supressing mortar, light artillery and heavy machine gun fire. Then the bug hit and wasted half my mortar spotters rounds off the map edge. At least they didn't come back on me.

I really hope BFC squashes this bug in the next patch. Arty becomes worthless in the desert or very dry conditions.

I had exactly the same experience with Fruhlingswind as the Germans. I kicked up dust with direct fire and then, even though the dust had cleared, my strike went way off target. What I found really frustrating is that no amount of retargeting seemed to fix the bad aim. That included, if I'm recalling this correctly, both retargeting the same strike with the green line AND cancelling the strike and starting over with a fresh blue line. The engine seems to decide that this FO can't be counted on to see a target properly and is therefore "broken." From what I can see, there's no way to get the FO to target accurately for the rest of the battle.

This was in 1.0 and I'd hoped it had been fixed in 1.01, but apparently not. Perhaps one of the testers could see if the retargeting problem is reproducible in tests. If so, I think what would clearly demonstrate that we're dealing with a bug.

[Hensworth]

I've had the same problem in RoWIV.

I felt utterly stupid.

Thanks for making me feel better .