Grog and the Car Designer - A Parable

[Battlefront.com]

Once upon a time, there was a man named Grog. He owned a 7 year old car that he dearly loved to drive. It was a great car, with great features and reliability. He had many, many happy memories spent using the car (get your minds out of the gutter guys... I am not talking about the back seat on Friday night!! ), but it was getting a bit old and friends had been telling him he should start thinking about getting something else. Times had changed, technology improved, and needs had changed. Grog also believes in this and would say so if you asked him. But for many in the general population expectations changed as well, while they had changed very little for Grog. In fact, Grog prided himself on his consistently held concepts of the world around him.

One day the car designer of Grog's car happened to drive by and see Grog getting out of his car at a coffee shop. The designer thinks this is a great opportunity to ask an obviously dedicated user of his car what he might like to see in a new car. Because, as it so happened, the designer had been working on such a new car for a little while now and there was still much that he thought he could incorporate based on customer feedback. Who better to ask than someone like the guy he just laid eyes on?

The designer pulled around and went back to the coffee shop. He went in, introduced himself and asked if he could sit down and talk about design issues with Grog. "Sure! I'd love to tell you how to make a better car:" So the designer took a seat and said to Grog "I noticed you really love that car I designed. Tell me, as a steady driver of the car, what would you like to see in a new model? I'm just starting the design so sky's the limit! I can't promise you everything you ask for will be in there, but I'll try to get this as close to your dream car as possible. So, knowing what you know about what we can do differently from 7 years ago, what would you have us do?"

Grog doesn't even hesitate. He already knows exactly what he wanted. So, he wasted no time telling the designer his ideas, using a voice which indicated that Grog was not just speaking for himself, but all owners of this model of car. "Well, first thing is first... you HAVE to make that cup holder bigger. The new 20oz bottles just won't fit in there. This is key. The rearview mirror's night time position is too difficult to operate so I tend not to use it. Make the flip switch larger and with less resistance. The carpet under the peddles is too thin... I wore through it years ago. If the car wasn't so good I'd probably have traded it in because of this alone. Make the carpets thicker. The vent air has always smelled a bit funny, so if you can fix that to... great. But don't waste too much time on that because I've found driving with the window open a crack fixes that OK. I'd rather see you address the issues with the exhaust system. No... no... it works fine, but when it rots out after 12 months I would like an indicator light to tell me that I need to get it replaced. And if you can fix all of those things, and still have some time, then I suppose a more comfortable driver's seat would be kinda neat, but really... I don't need it since my ass is so callused alread I can stick with the same seat. I don't want that to distract you from the other things! So, you do this and the car will be perfect!"

The car designer sat there stunned. Yes, all of Grog's suggestions were practical and, for the most part, good things. But the designer was thinking he would be hearing big ideas from this user, not just minor design issues that are almost certainly going to be addressed in the redesign process anyway even without any input. Like the drink holder... of course the designer is going to make the cup holder suited to the current sized drinks. He might even make it adjustable to fit possibly larger drinks in the future. And instead of having an expensive, and rather pointless, indicator light for the exhaust system... the designer was thinking of making something that would last 5 years instead of 1. So after a few minutes of stunned amazement, the designer thought Grog must have misunderstood what he was looking for.

"Grog, I think you must have misunderstood me. I am talking about an entire ground up redesign of the car you love. I want to make it better in all ways, not just the ways you mentioned (though most of them are good suggestions). Don't you want better gas milage? Gas prices today are terrible, so wouldn't that be good for you? And I noticed that the body of your car has substantial rust on it. Wouldn't you like me to design a body that has some innovative anti-rust features so that 7 years from now it will still look like you drove it out of the showroom yesterday? And how about engine performance... I know for a fact that your car, fully loaded, can be a bit slow to accelerate up a hill. I was thinking of changing things around so this wouldn't happen. Safety is also something most people put at the top of their lists, but you made no mention of this. Don't you want to have a greater chance of surviving a crash with the least amount of personal injury to you and your passengers as possible? There are all sorts of things I could do to address these issues. Aren't you interested in any of these?"

Grog, without hesitation, and with the sound of conviction that can only come from someone who has made up his mind long ago, said "No. All of that stuff is unnecessary. Give me the things that I mentioned and leave all the rest exactly as is. Don't fix what isn't broken".

"Are you absolutely sure? I mean, I can do some of these things and it won't even add any relative cost or detract from the driving experience. Why not put them in?"

"Cost isn't the issue, functionality is. And besides those things I mentioned, I want the functionality to be identical to what I have now. Don't mess it up with fancy stuff I don't want or need".

The designer, still in shock but oddly not surprised, figured that this was as far as the conversation could go. Grog gave him some good, though extremely minor, suggestions to keep in mind. And he wrote them down with the intention of making sure they were followed up on. But in terms of everything else... well, he obviously asked the wrong person even though Grog is obviously one of his most dedicated customers. So the designer tanked Grog, paid for his coffee, and departed. Grog did the same and got into his beloved car. He sat in it thinking about the joys of a newer car with the changes he requested, even though he doubted the designer would actually put them in. "He'll screw it up, I'm sure. They always do".

The End

[Soddball]

I want to see Ninjas and Sharks with Frickin' Laser Beams in their teeth!!!!11!!1

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ace Pilot]

Well, why didn't you say so in the first place???

I'd like to see horses AND motorcycles in CMx2.

[junk2drive]

Harleys still leak, and you have to wait to get one.

[David I]

I don't get it.

DavidI

[Guest BigAlMoho]

"He'll screw it up, I'm sure. They always do"

Starting a completely new design while leaving the old design with so many things undone and/or unfixed could be the reason why someone might think the above...

Al

[Brent Pollock]

Gawdammmit! Stop with the prose and get back to your position as a CMX2 slave galley oarsman

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

Well, why didn't you say so in the first place???

I'd like to see horses AND motorcycles in CMx2.

Oh my God! That is GREAT NEWS!!!! I can't wait to play with motorc....

Seriously, not a bad analogy.

But, didn't the designer actually go into a coffee shop with 18,000 patrons and ask for their advice en masse, and then get bombarded with responses, from the sublime to the ridiculous, to the extent the designer couldn't sort the wheat from the chaff?

And didn't he actually OWN the coffee house? And weren't most of the patrons only there for five or ten minutes before leaving, or simply asking questions about how to take a picture of their car?

[Treeburst155]

OK Steve, I want the option to play CM at the level of Battalion commander exclusively. I want to sit in my command vehicle and receive reports, look at maps, place pins on these maps, and write on these maps. I want reports from the field by radio and runner. I want to be able to initiate communications by radio and runner. I want to be able to leave the command car to see things first hand. I want to get requests for reinforcements and arty strikes from company commanders. I want my HQ to be overrun if the situation warrants it. When this happens I want an FPS shooter option to fight for my life.

Treeburst155 out.

[Other Means]

And the car designer thinks..."Wait, maybe if i showed the guy what I mean he'd get a better understanding of the scale of answers I'm looking for".

So the car designer says to Grog "No - here, this is what I'm talking about". And with that spreads out some designs for the New Hovercars.

Well, Grog is taken aback. "Here's me" he thought "using this car and liking it but this guy who is paid to come up with new ideas has DONE IT. This is brilliant." So the designer and Grog sit back and look at each other.

"Phew" says Grog. "You've really moved the goalposts here".

"Well yeah. I love designing cars and I know what the tech can do now so I'm doing the best I can think of."

"Brilliant...but see this engine outlet which makes it corner, if you backed that up with a wheel you could drop you could corner quicker at speed. And this Double windshield...I guess it's a good idea but wouldn't it weigh too much? You could get more legroom without it..."

Grog and the designer whiled away many hours in useful discussion. Both kicking off ideas in each other. Both getting what they really wanted from the New Hovercar.

[Battlefront.com]

Al,

Starting a completely new design while leaving the old design with so many things undone and/or unfixed could be the reason why someone might think the above...

Which makes no sense. First of all, there is no way to make anything perfect, therefore there will ALWAYS be things that are "undone and/or unfixed". Therefore, by your logic we have absolutely no chance of pleasing you. Not a great position to take What you are also saying is that the ONLY way to "fix" things is to take the existing code base, suffer through all its limitations, and to basically slap some patches into it. But what you fail to understand is that some of the things that are "undone and/or unfixed" can only be done or fixed by breaking with the past stuff we've done. Lastly, your position presumes that there is nothing better we can produce than a patched up version of what we have already done. That is the mentality that was trying to prevent us from doing pretty much EVERYTHING that CMBO became. "Just take x game and fix the things are broken. Don't presume you can do things any better, because you can't."

You don't see this as an attitude that is actually limiting the chances of getting what you want?

Other Means,

You've obviously missed the point. When Grog was asked to imagine a better car, he came up with very small, narrow things. Even when he designer prodded him to "think big", Grog refused to. Worse, Grog insisted that thinking big was unnecessary and even harmful. Yet he thinks he has all the answers and there is no possibility for something other than what he has already thought of. What you described is not the guy in my parable. The guy you described is the one I want to talk with on this Forum. The one I described is the one that tries to be a part of the problem and not part of the solution. Unroll the plans in front that type, talk details, listen, debate, and guess what? They still maintain the same positions they had before, unchanged and uninfluenced by the new ideas put before them and actually (sometimes) even ANGRY at the designer for daring to think big.

Steve

[Mies]

I know for a fact that your car, fully loaded, can be a bit slow to accelerate up a hill

I do feel that driving a fully loaded 30 ton tank up a slope can take a lot out of the engine.

Anyway I bought a new car a couple of months back. It's a 2 liter 16v powerhouse compared to my 1.6 liter 5th hand "oldtimer" I used to drive for about 4 years. I wonder if the car designer actually had something like this in mind when drawing up the new car.....

Mies

[Boo Radley]

What kind of car was it?

[Other Means]

You obviously know the people on this forum better than I do. But I do find that if you demonstrate what you mean to people by change for the better 90% of them will grasp it with open arms. The 10% will be vocal maybe but nontheless will be a very small minority.

If you're going to ask people to think, in any field, it's best to give them a seed of change & let them build it rather than just saying "think of something great."

If you feel that you have some revolutionary ideas for CMX2, and I bet you do, I for one would love to hear them.

Here's my Big Idea. Not well thought through as it's off the cuff but in order to demonstrate some original ideas on the subject.

No god views. Each view of the battlefield is a real view through the commanders eyes. You can access menus specific to the eye's you're occupying. Therefore if all your command team gets wiped out - tough. You can't change the plan except in increments & can't call arty etc unless you get a radio man back into command.

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Best game I have ever played, but just as flawed/unfinished as any game I have ever played for any length of time... How can I get excited about some pie in the sky new design when I am so frustrated by the incompleteness of the best game yet... Is the next one going to be the best yet but as flawed/incomplete as this one?

Nobody is using the word perfect but you...

There are many problems with your existing product that you have abandoned in spite of the on-going discusion by your loyal customers... Why should this group think the next one will be any less frustrating?

and what about my "Follow" command thread?

Al

[David I]

Oh, I see....?

It's like, ah...?

Nope...I still don't get it.

DavidI

[aka_tom_w]

I am concerned....

" Yes, all of Grog's suggestions were practical and, for the most part, good things. But the designer was thinking he would be hearing big ideas from this user, not just minor design issues that are almost certainly going to be addressed in the redesign process anyway even without any input"

And..

The designer, still in shock but oddly not surprised, figured that this was as far as the conversation could go.

When Grog was asked to imagine a better car, he came up with very small, narrow things. Even when he designer prodded him to "think big", Grog refused to. Worse, Grog insisted that thinking big was unnecessary and even harmful."

I would be MORE than HAPPY to "think big"

But to be honest I am not sure what form of visionary mindbending paradigm shift you were expecting....

Please...

Some folks here would actually like to step up to the challenge and try to help out, but some of us (thanks to all the noise from the bitching and moaning) are not all that sure what you are looking for, or in what direction this paradigm shift ("think big" new idea) should be heading.

We know the game will have 1:1 representation.

We know the game will be some form of military simulation

We know the game will be WeGo

OK?

if you would like to set out a specific challenge or give us an idea which conceptual problems you are asking our opinion about I would be thrilled to help out.

Bring on the Paradigm Shift! (but can you just hint us in the general direction so we can try to collectively help out, at least inbetween the noisy outbursts of "grogy-ness" )

AND.. You can sign me up for one of those fancy new cold fusion solar powered hybrid Enviro-Hover Cars you are working on (I want the first one off the line that you have for sale!)

and thanks

(GREAT parable, very nicely done!!!)

-tom w

[ February 11, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[YankeeDog]

Heh.

I used to work for Nissan motors as a product representative. It's pretty remarkable how close the parable above is to what happens at Auto Shows.

Years ago, I did the same thing for Hasbro Interactive for some of their computer games (though not their failed ASL project -- I repped the Race Car simulators). Different industry, same stuff.

Part of my job to be the "face" for the product at trade shows, fan events, etc. I'd deliver short presentations on new products' capabilities, etc., and then I'd be on the receiving end of the Fan/Grog/Whatever comments so the designers didn't have to deal with this stuff. Then I'd distill everything I'd heard, and write up a report with a summary about what suggestions were coming in from consumers, and forward it on to the design team.

So having been an official corporate sh*t catcher, I can sympathize. . .

It is true, though, that in among the doo-doo you hear from the great unwashed masses, there's usually some pretty profound stuff. But it's a lot of work separating the good from the bad. This is why big companies hire product reps.

I do think there are still some good and interesting ideas coming up here on the forums, and I really hope you and others at BFC will keep listening, Steve.

Cheers,

YD

[kipanderson]

Hi,

LOL… great story.

As a driver and fan of the car my only concern was that the designer may try to design a new car aimed at a different niche market. If I am a driving of a high power : weight ratio, two seater sports car my concern was that the designer may try to build a car that is half sports car, half people mover.

Happily, my concerns were unfounded . The designer is optimising the design for the same niche market. ( i.e. game scale.. roughly… company + v company +.)

So all is well. I would encourage the designer to go for it .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[rleete]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

So the designer tanked Grog...

There's your answer, right there.

[Battlefront.com]

Al

Best game I have ever played, but just as flawed/unfinished as any game I have ever played for any length of time... How can I get excited about some pie in the sky new design when I am so frustrated by the incompleteness of the best game yet... Is the next one going to be the best yet but as flawed/incomplete as this one?

Of course, in some ways, because...

Nobody is using the word perfect but you...

You are using the term "compelte". That is the same as "perfect". Since there is no way to make a "complete" game, yes... CMx2 will be incomplete. But will it be incomplete in the same way that CMx1 was? No.

The thing you aren't getting is most of the reasons for the "incompletenes" of CMx1 has to do with the limitations of the code and fundamental game designs. In order to fix them, we have to do something different. Whether you choose to try and understand that or not is beyond my abilities. All I can do is ignore you and prove you wrong. Just like we proved people like you wrong when we released CMx1. Heck, you might have even been one of the people telling us we had it all wrong with all that pointless 3D graphics and no hexes

There are many problems with your existing product that you have abandoned

Abandoned? Hardly. No developer in the world patches, patches, and patches a product for year after year without further compesation. You got probably 1000 times the game play out of CMx1 games than most people get from the games of their choice. You have ZERO grounds for complaints (well, without sounding like a spoiled and ungreatful child that is).

But instead of rehashsing something old, we're taking what you guys are asking for and doing what needs to be done to make it happen. And that requires a new game system. Period.

and what about my "Follow" command thread?

See my reference to the cup holder in the above parable. You are focused on the small, nitty gritty things instead of the big picture. Just because I haven't answered every single question you guys have doesn't mean it won't be in CMx2.

Have some faith. You OWE us that. If you don't think you do, then please exit the Forum and don't return until after CMx2 is out. We don't really need ungreatful, unproductive, unimaginative people getting in the way of real discussion. If you think you don't fall into the latter category, then please by all means stay. But put your money where your stated principles are.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And weren't most of the patrons only there for five or ten minutes before leaving, or simply asking questions about how to take a picture of their car?

My God, did NO ONE see the comic brilliance of this line? I may take a screenshot just to preserve this moment forever... :mad:

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Spin it all you want but:

"No more patches" = ABANDONED.

Obviously, I am not going to get through to you, so I am going to just stop trying and shut up...

[Tarkus]

Now I wonder where I stand...

Reading this and the 1:1 thread, I wonder about the relationship in the forums. For the last two months or so, I've been actively reading CMx2 threads, contributing my fare share and pondering about what Steve and others said. Yet each time I contributed, I could not help but to wonder who am I to suggest anything to these guys since they made their game so good that I actively play it still today?

My answer to that is still the same: I am mostly interested in design discussions to keep thinking forward based on the observations I made on the game I know, and be it as it may, if you find one single tiny sparkle of an idea into that slump of delirium (in which I assume my fare share of responsabilities) all the better. Moon very clearly stated back then that we should always bear in mind the game would be all about change, and this certainly induced me to take "shots in the dark" and then read and reread your post to try to figure out where you are going.

I guess I most often sound silly to suggest this or that, but the keyword here, really, is suggest instead of ask. Yet one must keep in mind that there are so many things we ignore that it is almost impossible to be very and accurately (if at all) on the mark, not to mention that you have years and years of experience at it while I don't. I suppose it also prevent me from thinking big with any measure of realism.

The bottom line is, I really hope you don't get tired of our suggestions, even though I expect none of them to be specifically useful. On my side, I'll remember to show some respect since, as you clearly stated it, it is your butt that's on the line. Up to now, speaking only for myself, I think I did.

Cheers

Jean-Vincent

a.k.a. Tarkus

[Treeburst155]

Steve,

I REALLY WOULD like to run a battalion level engagement, role playing as the battalion commander. Call it a Battalion Commander Simulator. That describes what I want.

Give us an example of the big imaginative ideas you're trying to coax out of the grogs. I think most like CM so much that a few dozen little tweaks to what they already have is all that people can really get a grip on. We need an example of something big.

Treeburst155 out.