Moving in snow - ridiculous

[Sven]

Really, "advancing" 10 metres in snow won't make a soldier go from "rested" to "tired".

[GreenAsJade]

I guess it depends on how deep the snow is.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

put on all that battle gear and try moving 10 meters more than kneedeep in snow. then do the same, but this time run & duck, run & duck the 10 meters. you will get tired. very tired.

you simply don't do infantry attacks in snow. it's a suicide. what you do is you blast the enemy away with big guns and then walk in and defend those positions.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Sven:

Really, "advancing" 10 metres in snow won't make a soldier go from "rested" to "tired".

It will, enough at least to have to let him catch breath for a minute or so. We get quite a bit of snow where I'm living, and I can tell you, plowing through waistdeep snow (even without trying to "advance", i.e. get from cover to cover, use your weapon etc.) is hell.

Martin

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sven:

Really, "advancing" 10 metres in snow won't make a soldier go from "rested" to "tired".

I take it you have never been on a winter exercise?

They didn't have thinsulate and GoreTex in them days; standard winter gear (not shown in-game) was a wool greatcoat or a heavy blanket-lined parka.

I've been on one or two winter exercises myself and even with the new lightweight kit it ain't a picnic.

[JasonC]

Moving rapidly in snow is tiring unless the snow is light. But Sven may be right that it is overdone. In CMBB, you essentially have to use "move". The problem is move pins very easily. "Advance" is the only thing stiff enough to cross even short areas of open ground.

Advance with occasional tired pauses would still simulate moving upright for short stretches then hitting the ground, and would not be too fast. The tired distance should be 40-60m. It need not be conceptualized as literally running between short halts, and with tired pauses it will slow down. Move represents continual upright walking and is too vulnerable for what would really happen - which is the protection of occasional halts but slower because the upright portions are walking rather than running.

Incidentally, the Russians had perfectly good winter gear in WW II. Not Gortex, but fur lined boots, hats, mittens, and parkas - quilted or pile if fur wasn't available, etc. Fur is neither bulky nor heavy and is quite warm even in the coldest winter weather. The Germans didn't unless they captured stuff, but that was their problem, not something true of the whole era.

[ September 14, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Sven:

Really, "advancing" 10 metres in snow won't make a soldier go from "rested" to "tired".

Your trying to make a joke aren't you? You must not walk in snow much.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Incidentally, the Russians had perfectly good winter gear in WW II. Not Gortex, but fur lined boots, hats, mittens, and parkas - quilted or pile if fur wasn't available, etc. Fur is neither bulky nor heavy and is quite warm even in the coldest winter weather. The Germans didn't unless they captured stuff, but that was their problem, not something true of the whole era.

Which source are you consulting that indicated fur-lined clothing was widely available to rank and file? Zaloga's SOVIET ARMY UNIFORMS IN WORLD WAR TWO show wool-greatcoated soldiers as late as 1945.

Fur caps were indeed common - for OFFICERS; enlisted men got "fish-fur" (synthetic fur which quote"had no relationship with real fur"endquote) so I really doubt that fur lined jackets would have been all that common for EM, if they couldn't even line their hats with the stuff. See page 43 of THE RED ARMY OF THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR 1941-45, also by Steven J. Zaloga.

I think you're also incorrect about the Germans not having fur garments of their own; rabbit fur hats were an issue item (I believe these were not locally produced), as were sheepskin jackets for officers.

[ September 14, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

bump

[Michael Dorosh]

EDIT

[ September 14, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Private Bluebottle]

One wonders, will it be that in CMAK, moving in soft-sand is considered as difficult?

Will other environmental factors, such as heat be taken into account? Trying conduct a battle in extreme temperatures is very debilitating after even an extremely short amount of time.

[Jarmo]

Dunno, how much snow is there supposed to be in "light snow" and "snow"?

If snow is knee deep, the tiring is overdone. I have ran in a full 20 kg battlegear in snow. Being pretty unfit, I was dead tired after couple hundred meters. But 100 meters? No problem even if you do get tired.

Waistdeep is another matter. Done that too (carrying stuff) and was exhausted after 20 meters.

[edgars]

Also, another variable which, i guess is not taken into account here, is the weight of the snow.

From my avalanche lessons: one cubicmeter of fresh "dry" snow (powder) weighs little more than 100kg.

Same cubic meter, but wet, can weigh up to 800kg.

BIG difference.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

One wonders, will it be that in CMAK, moving in soft-sand is considered as difficult?

Will other environmental factors, such as heat be taken into account? Trying conduct a battle in extreme temperatures is very debilitating after even an extremely short amount of time.

Yes, softsand is not unlike snow, but not quite as bad. And temperature is affecting movement and fatigue in CMBB already as is, so of course it will be in CMAK as well.

Jarmo, snow depths are listed in the manual. I think it's >3, >8 and >12 inches for light, snow, and deep (going from memory here).

Martin

[Belaja smert]

Originally posted by Moon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

One wonders, will it be that in CMAK, moving in soft-sand is considered as difficult?

Will other environmental factors, such as heat be taken into account? Trying conduct a battle in extreme temperatures is very debilitating after even an extremely short amount of time.

Yes, softsand is not unlike snow, but not quite as bad. And temperature is affecting movement and fatigue in CMBB already as is, so of course it will be in CMAK as well.

Jarmo, snow depths are listed in the manual. I think it's >3, >8 and >12 inches for light, snow, and deep (going from memory here).

Martin </font>

[Rob Murray]

Try going 10m in snow when you're half frozen & hungry. I'm sure both Russians & Germans weren't getting their 3 square meals per day.

[lcm1947]

I too believe that moving in snow is over done. Iv'e hunted in snow almost up to my knees on occasion and while it was somewhat difficult I didn't have any problems walking 10 yards. Not just 10 yards. Come on guys you would have to be pretty damn out of shape to have trouble after only 10 yards and we are talking about young soldiers here that are in some sort of physical condition I'd think. It just isn't realistic. Now maybe without pausing you'd be breathing hard after 30 or 40 yards but not tried, not after just 10 or 20. I realize and love the way BFC tries to make the game realistic and they do an excellent job but there is such a thing as going overboard and I think we see it here. My 2 cents as they say.

[Hans]

With some delightful memories of moving with the Infantry in deep snow in Kansas, Germany and the worse of all Ft Drum, NY.

As I had a radio and at least 25 kg of other stuff I found anything over boot high was tiring.

Once you get to around the knees forget it, nothing useful is going to be accomplished at any sort of speed.

The use of snow shoes (improvised) makes this much simpler. From what I experienced I say that Veteran troops will make their own snowshoes - such shoes however restrict speed but greatly lower exhaustion-forget running!

I was a marathon running then and getting about 290 on the old 300 PT test. But I can remember movements to contact in Germany using the new MLS gear that wore me out, at age 26. I remember the older NCO's suffered greatly.

Sand

Nearly as difficult, again slows you down and exhausts - most of my sand experience has been on archie digs and not military but I'd say that in general:

Light snow is no problem

snow and sand are the same

Deep snow is a show stopper without snow shoes*

One good thing about deep snow - mines become ineffectual as does most non VT arty fire (time fuse is still nasty thou).

[undead reindeer cavalry]

squads won't tire after 10 meters of walking in snow. they won't tire after 10 meters of running either.

[Sergei]

12 inches deep snow, bah! That's so insignificant amount, when I was young we used to crawl through snow banks. Some would get lost and not be found until the spring, but it built your character!

"Try going 10m in snow when you're half frozen & hungry. I'm sure both Russians & Germans weren't getting their 3 square meals per day."

If the squad's 'fit' then I presume they're fit, not weakened or unfit. And those meals - bah, humbug! When I was a young lad, we used to dream of having meals. The only things we were allowed to eat were our own fingernails! Going to toilet felt like pulling bear's claws out of your ass! It built your character!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Come on guys you would have to be pretty damn out of shape to have trouble after only 10 yards and we are talking about young soldiers here that are in some sort of physical condition I'd think.

Actually we aren't. Both the Soviets and the Germans drafted infantry probably up to the age of 40, if not older, quite regularly (no, this does not include the Volkssturm).

As an example, 24% of soldiers in the divisions of the 4. Welle, raised in 1939/40 consisted of Landwehr, some of whom had been trained during WW I, i.e. they would be at least 40 by this time.

The young fit 18/20-year old may have been prevalent in the US Army (and maybe the Canadian sub-department of the US Army), but not in any other major army of World War II. I am reasonably certain that the British army also drafted up the older chaps.

This is before we even get into issues of regular (let alone decent - I believe scurvey occurred amongst forces in the Arctic) food supply, sufficient movement/exercise to stay fit (a problem during winter positional warfare), and the constant stress, which would also take its toll. Also, particularly later in the war, fitness levels would have dropped because of shortened training (one thing to be said for the RAD was apparently that you became fit 'like Oskar', and looked dashing in a uniform)

My grandfather started World War II in Poland at the age of 25 as a German private.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I am reasonably certain that the British army also drafted up the older chaps.

The British did draft older men, but these tended to be used in support roles, releasing younger men for front line duties. Front line fighting troops tended to be in 18-25 age range. Peter White, an officer in the KOSB who served in the Low Countries and Germany in 1944-45, in With the Jocks remarks on their surprise when they saw that German prisoners were so varied in age and size compared to British infantry. He was also surprised at the difference in uniforms between officers and men, but this was mutual as evidently a number of captured German officers complained that they never knew if they were talking to a British officer or a private .

UBB edit

[ September 15, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[miragex]

I remember that I wanted to buy a German military overcoat last year. I like it very much. However, when I took it, I found it very heavy (!)... I cannot tell u its weight, but it is much heavier than I expected. Eventually, I did not buy it. I think it will be too heavy for me, and I can't imagine how a fully equipped German soldier walking on snow ground...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

The young fit 18/20-year old may have been prevalent in the US Army (and maybe the Canadian sub-department of the US Army.

I will presume you are talking about the Special Service Force here (!)

Bump for JasonC, I would like to know his sources for the above statements re: fur-lined garments.\

Where is Grisha when you need him?

[Jack Carr]

Any WWII re-enactors out there? I have alot of the equipment and the uniforms. These things really stunk for keeping warm in the winter and cool in the summer. The last re-enactment I went to, guys were passing out from heat exhaustion. I can't attest to the physical fitness of these fellas but on a relatively cool day in September, guys were dropping out and unable to continue. You have to remember that no one at a

re-enactment is scared of dying from bullets, mortar fire, etc. These guys are just marching around, moving through brush etc. With an 8-10 pound rifle in your arms and 25 or more pounds of gear/ammunition on your belt/back, wearing a wool uniform, you get tired fast. I might add, that your canteen gets emptied quickly as well.

For whatever it's worth...