Moving in snow - ridiculous

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

When Ambrose writes a book about D-Day in its entirety, you forgive him when he says the Panther has an 88mm gun.

Not I! I'll never forgive him! Not one millimeter of slack will I grant him! When I read that line in Citizen Soldiers it instantly curdled whatever nascent respect I may have had for him as a historian. Historian! Hmph!

Michael

[ September 18, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Abbott]

(off topic)

Carbon66,

I also have noticed your “quick to jump” style while following your CAS thread. I was also quite shocked when reading your attack upon Andreas in this thread. Andreas is one of our more respected members and is actually very helpful and a nice guy. He makes himself available to Combat Mission players and always has something of interest to contribute.

Seanachai may take a bit for newer members to get used to. He has been around here a very long time and is one of our well-respected members as well. His sense of humor can be very enjoyable if you take a moment to see all its subtleties. Well educated, well spoken and a gentleman (if he likes being called that or not) he adds a great deal of panache to this forum and this place is better with him here.

Sir, I have noticed some of the same qualities in the above in your writings. My suggestion to you would be relax, slow down a bit and enjoy all the personalities and the education this unique forum has to offer. It is very easy until one gets-into-the-flow around here to mistake a bit of ribbing for an attack. I believe you will also have much to contribute to this place in the future, when you get in step with it.

I would also like to take a moment for my take on Canada and Canadian’s as an American . I think it’s north of us, gets confused when laying out a football field because of all the snow, has a big mall, claims Hockey as some kind of a National sport when we all know the National Canadian sport is drinking and has a population of 230.

[Harv]

Originally posted by Cabron66:

Buncha Stuff...

No Way is this guy from Canaduh. Sure we're morally superior to all those smelly Amelicans and all that, but I've never met any other of the 230 Canuckianites who are That superior.

Well, except for Dorosh, but he's from Alberta and they have a reason to act superior. But I digress...

So, the only answer is that Cabron66 is a Canaduh wannabe imposter type of poster! Judging from his...errr...judging, and complete lack of humility or humor, I'd say he is from ....ummm... somewhere else. Or across the straw curtain in Alberta.

Or sumfink.

And to stay on topic...moving in snow in uniform is either easy or difficult, depending on whether it's easy or difficult that day.

Glad I could help.

Harv

{edited to express just how much I really really despise Albertians}

[ September 18, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Harv ]

[Michael Dorosh]

The curtain may be made of straw, but the streets are paved with gold...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The curtain may be made of straw, but the streets are paved with gold...

I would not call the black slick gold. But then again, what do I know.

[JasonC]

Michael, Michael, Michael. If you ask for a source and get one, then before dismissing it it helps to consult it at least once. It is not an anecdote, it is the Soviet general staff study on the Battle of Moscow and IIRC contains an entire chapter on dealing with extreme winter conditions.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Michael, Michael, Michael. If you ask for a source and get one, then before dismissing it it helps to consult it at least once. It is not an anecdote, it is the Soviet general staff study on the Battle of Moscow and IIRC contains an entire chapter on dealing with extreme winter conditions.

Point taken! I will have to consult that then, thanks for the tip. On a completely unrelated note, what are photocopying fees at your library?

[Michael Emrys]

Cabron66,

If I may toss my two Loonies worth into this discussion, I think there is a good chance that you may become a respected member of this forum on the strength of your scholarship. But you are a bit of a stuffed shirt and that is liable to be your downfall if you don't take steps to correct it.

The forum has its own brand of humor and it can be a tad rough and ready at times. But reacting angrily to it will not get you any respect, as you may have discovered. Further, we tend to distrust people who take themselves too seriously. If they can be so wrong about that, then all their views become suspect. We're all bozos on this bus. We admit it. We enjoy it. Now let's got on with business, shall we?

As for Canada and Canadian culture, I live less than a hundred miles from the border, yet aside from one afternoon spent in Victoria (which I liked) my impression of Canadian culture is mostly derived from listening to CBC Radio2 (in fact, I'm listening to it at this moment), so I don't suppose my opinion can carry much weight. Generally I like what I know about Canadians...although you guys sure have some strange tastes in folk music.

Michael

[ September 18, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Abbott:

His sense of humor can be very enjoyable if you take a moment to see all its subtleties. Well educated, well spoken and a gentleman (if he likes being called that or not)

One blushes.

Well, with a testimonial like that, it kind of behooves me to live up to it, I guess.

Cabron66, it is very true that my 'sense of humour', for want of a better term, does take a bit of getting used to.

I apologize if my teasing offended you, and I certainly intended no denigration of Canada through a playful reworking of the anthem. My family owns property in Canada, which I've been going to since I was 8 years old (which puts it back quite a bit, now), I have relatives in Winnipeg, and much of my Grandmother's family is from Canada.

I simply feel you need to be a little less prickly about everything, and remember that just because people post differently than you do is not sufficient cause to put them on an 'enemies list', nor abuse them personally.

All this discussion, of course, begs one serious question:

What kind of fur were the Siberians wearing? Ermine? Wolf? Civet cat? No true Grog discussion would so casually use the term 'fur' in such a generic way.

[Michael Dorosh]

Seanachai - I rather thought the burden of proof was on JasonC there. Do you really have no idea how we operate, even after these thousands of words and/or posts?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

One blushes.

The truth is, we only keep you around because, well, everyone needs somebody they can feel superior to, don't they? And you handily fill the bill.

Well, with a testimonial like that, it kind of behooves me to live up to it, I guess.

That shouldn't be too hard, eh?

Michael

[Paco QNS]

For what is worth, a couple cites:

Around Stalingrad, winter 1942-43:

http://www.vor.ru/55/Stalingrad/History_10_eng.html

Sergei Zasukhin – a Russian soldier remembered: “We were given great uniforms – warm woolen underwear, shirts, warm coats, valenki (warm boots), fur hats, and fur gloves. Besides, to feel ourselves more comfortable we were given special light fur coats and special woolen masks that covered the whole face except for eyes and mouth, certainly. We all had white camouflage.

With such uniforms we could easily live everywhere, even in the deep snows of Stalingrad. We used to dig one meter deep wholes put some fir-tree branches, covered ourselves with cloaks and did not give a damn about frosts”.

In the Chapter 3: Pertinent Aspects of Nazi-Soviet Warfare During the Winter of

1941-42

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Chew/CHEW.asp#3

Deep snow hampered movement on foot. In one instance a unit of the 52d Infantry Division required nine hours to advance two and one-half miles-unopposed-through five feet of snow. Consequently, trampling lateral and rearward paths assumed tactical significance. For example, the German commander of Company G, 464th Infantry, realized on 15 January 1942 that his positions would soon become untenable. He therefore detailed a few men with minor wounds to trample a path from the village held by the company towards a nearby forest. During the ensuing Soviet offensive, that path prevented his unit from being trapped by the enemy.

Regards.

[Michael Dorosh]

"Company G"?

Gotta love American historians! I take it this refers to the 7th Company.

Good quotes, thanks for sharing them. Very useful!

[John D Salt]

Snow deeper than 1cm tends to be inconvenient for me, thanks to my invariable footwear being open-toed sandals.

Lacking personal experience, and having no information on how tiring it is to move through snow, I am forced to resort to the following snippets from my trusty "Basic Arctic Manual", October 1951 (US FM 31-70, Canadian CATP 9-1).

Page 176 shows the following table, with the prefatory remarks that "Exact rates of movement cannot be given. They vary in each situation. However, the following rates are given as a rough guide. They are for flat or gently rolling terrain when a man is equipped with a rifle and packed rucksack:"

_________________Cross-country__On a broken trail

On foot, < 12-in snow____1-2 mph_____1.25-2 mph

On foot, > 12-in snow___.25-.75mph___1.25-2 mph

Snowshoeing______________1-2 mph_____2-2.5 mph

Skiing__________________1-3.5 mph____2-3.5 mph

It is also stated, on page 152, that "During the winter 1 foot of snow is considered to be the maximum depth for marching on foot."

All the best,

John.

[ September 18, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[xerxes]

Woa! Trampled paths! We want trampled paths! No more treats for BTS until we get trampled paths!

It would be cool for snow scenarios.

[Abbott]

(snip)

"Basic Arctic Manual", October 1951 (US FM 31-70, Canadian CATP 9-1).

Page 176 shows the following table (snip)

Very good post John.

[ September 18, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

_________________Cross-country__On a broken trail

On foot, < 12-in snow____1-2 mph_____1.25-2 mph

On foot, > 12-in snow___.25-.75mph___1.35-2 mph

Snowshoeing______________1-2 mph_____2-2.5 mph

Skiing__________________1-3.5 mph____2-3.5 mph

John, according to that table, on a broken trail, it is marginally faster in snow > 12" than in snow <12". Is that what your book says?

If so, I am trying to figure out why.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

_________________Cross-country__On a broken trail

On foot, < 12-in snow____1-2 mph_____1.25-2 mph

On foot, > 12-in snow___.25-.75mph___1.35-2 mph

Snowshoeing______________1-2 mph_____2-2.5 mph

Skiing__________________1-3.5 mph____2-3.5 mph

John, according to that table, on a broken trail, it is marginally faster in snow > 12" than in snow <12". Is that what your book says?

If so, I am trying to figure out why.

Michael </font>

[Abbott]

Stephen Ambrose wrote the friggin manual. :mad: :mad:

Chin up 'ole chap, jolly good and Oh Canada...

Now send me a friggin turn! Or TCP this evening?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

[snips]

John, according to that table, on a broken trail, it is marginally faster in snow > 12" than in snow <12". Is that what your book says?

Nope. The error is due to crap typing on my part. Good eye. I'm going to correct the original posting now.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Oops. Finger trouble.

[ September 18, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Abbott:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Stephen Ambrose wrote the friggin manual. :mad: :mad:

Chin up 'ole chap, jolly good and Oh Canada...

Now send me a friggin turn! Or TCP this evening? </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

[re: Cabrons CAS Thread] ... I couldn't help but notice, though, that your attitude has been throughout, 'Welcome, come in, find yourself a seat, this is my thread about CAS, what information can you contribute to my contention about how it should be modeled in CM?' You were quite courteous, but it should be noted only because you seemed to want to promote the discussion on what you clearly regarded as your thread. If people weren't presenting you with information that worked into your position, you either feigned ignorance of what they were trying to say, or you thanked them for their input and then ignored them.

Nice to know it wasn't just me getting that impression. I don't feel so bad about not contributing much more than sources, to let you do your own research.

Regards

JonS

[BFCElvis]

Dear Huddled Masses,

Last year on Christmas day in Vermont, while visiting my in-laws, we received 2 feet of snow. When there was about 18" on the ground some of us thought it would be great fun to run around in the snow. I am over 40 and a smoker (not in films...I mean cigarettes so sit down bauhaus) which I think offsets being starving, in the cold for days on end and fighting for my life. I felt ready to drop long before I had run 10m. We walked for about an hour and that was fine but those first few minutes when we thought it was cute to run were very tiring. Yup, it was much more enjoyable to spark up a Camel and stroll through the woods.

The Cabron69 issue? I LOVE him. He called Andreas stupid. He is, of course, correct. Good eye, Cabby. You have shown that you cannot get anything past those Canadians.....I don't even try.

Love,

Elvis

[Cabron66]

Wow, Micheal Emrys , if I needed any more evidence I have inadvertantly stumbled into a bit of a fascist boys' club you have provided it.

Your advice is neither desired nor appreciated. What bothers you guys seems to be anyone who offers an opinion contrary to your own, challenges your position or who argues in a way you do not see as fitting your idea of what this forum should be.

That's what I love about you guys. You start these little wars with inane comments based on nothing but your own egos and then hold up your hands and feign ignorance of the topic.

Luckily, anyone who is interested in verifying what actually occurred (although I find it hard to believe anyone will) can simply go to the threads and see for themselves. Based on what I have seen, your behaviour here is nothing new. It certainly explains why the forum is frequently refered to as a "pissing contest" by the many who no longer post, but prefer to contact others by e-mail.

As far as my efforts to arrive at some kind of educated opinion concerning the role of CAS in CM. If you don't like the thread then don't post on it. Simple enough?

In my efforts to actually read some of the things people have been offering I have not been able to reply as quickly as I would like, but of course, that is what happens when one endeavours not to speak directly from his ass as so many of you frequently do.

This is my last effort expended uselessly on this forum. Seanachai, you and others accused me of spouting vague and unsunstatiated information. I have now proven that my knowledge is quite the opposite of unsubstantiated. If you are not a good loser than you should learn to be.

Micheal Dorosh , the real problem with Canada is not a lack of culture, but rather the presence of people like you who are only to happy to suck on Uncle Sam's teet and perhaps even other parts of his anatomy.

Andreas, go straight to hell. Luckily I know enough Germans to be sure that you are a minority in your own country.

As far as mailing goes and all of the other ridiculousness mentioned in the above posts, please, since I was first offended I would think it would be the role of the offender to apologize. Otherwise, we're really wasting our time, aren't we.

[ September 18, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ]