Immobile Victory Flags are not historical

[Lawyer]

As I was assessing my rapidly declining tactical position in one of my PBEM matches, I suddenly realized that a big part of my misfortune is due to CM's failure to properly model the use and placement of Victory Flags (VF's). I think this flaw is impacting approximately 50 percent of CM PBEM matches where losing is involved. Thus, it is a common problem that deserves to be fixed.

In my current match, the attacking US forces have taken three VF's of the six available in the game, and they seem intent on taking the rest. As part of the process, my opponent gains winning points by taking VF's, and he also gains the territory that defines a win. This is not correct historically.

In real world battles, VF's are fully movable. We have all seen pictures of gallant troops and officers actually carrying and moving their side's VF's in battles going back to the Middle Ages and through the 20th Century, up to and including WWII. The famous raising of the US flag on Iwo Jima was accomplished by just six or seven men who moved their VF to the top of the Mt. Surabachi and declared it to be a victory objective.

Modeling the real world ability to carry VF's could have an important and realistic effect on CM battles. Why does CM not allow a player to pick up a VF from a location he is losing, and simply move it to another location that he still holds? It's not hard to do physically in the real world, and it reflects natural human behavior.

One man normally carries the unit VF in pictures I have seen. Unlike MG's, VF's are made of light materials with a portable pole, so that one or two men should be able to transport a VF rapidly, and even run with the VF for a considerable distance on the battlefield.

I have read that several men might actually be killed in real battles while carrying their unit's VF. Others would then rush to take the place of a fallen comrade and carry the flag forward with the moving unit. The key factor here is mobility. VF movement is part of the battle flow. The VF is, in fact, a "moving target" that defines who wins and who loses the battle.

Any CM unit of team size or larger should easily be able to pick up and move a VF in a PBEM match. Moreover, vehicles in CM should be permitted to carry VF's to another location on the map, even if they otherwise are incapable of carrying units. How much trouble is it to throw a flag on the back of a tank or a jeep to move it across the map?

The game effects of movable VF's would be substantial. For example, in my current game, I could easily have picked up and moved the three VF's that my opponent has now taken. By moving those VF's to the area of the map I control, I would still be clearly "winning" the flag points, and I also would be declaring that the conditions of victory have now changed.

Is that what happens in real battles? You bet it is. Whole nations (e.g. France) have learned through the centuries to avoid defeat by moving their VF's (and thus their vicory conditions) beyond the reach of enemy forces.

So why doesn't BTS make VF's movable in CM? Such a change would accurately model historical reality. It would also permit a losing player to avoid unnecessary defeat by doing what any rational commander in a real world battle would do -- Pick up the damned flag and make a hasty getaway!!

CM could be a much, much better game if BTS would listen to us players. Having spent so much time researching ballistics, AFV physics, and human morale conditions, I am somewhat disappointed that a logical and simple change like movable VF's has not been made.

Are there other players out there who feel the same way?

[Bruno Weiss]

Hehe, I could just see Babra grabbing a flag and then making a hasty retreat off the map.

[Mark IV]

How can this man be drinking this long before noon?

He has, of course, hit on something. The Waffenamt was aware of the problem, and had developed the Fahnenwerfer as an advanced solution. The sub-caliber 120mm mortar insert actually launched VL flags to a range of 6km. Imagine the enemy's consternation to find VLs suddenly appearing to the left, right, or even the rear of their original objective! Designs even existed for a V2 modified with the Fahnenwerfer, which could suddenly have placed the VLs for the Allied forces in London!

Fortunately, the Red Army overran the development facilities before this fiendish wonder-weapon could be employed. It is certain that they acquired this technology for themselves, and some suspect the 1989 incident that had Russian tanks firing upon the Russian parliament building was a Fahnenwerfer exercise gone horribly awry.

[Doug Beman]

What comes to my mind is Eddie Izzard discussing the importance of flag-having on national sovereignty.

"What do you mean? We live here! 500 million of us!"

"Have you got a FLAHH-G?"

"Well, not really."

"Ah-ha! No flag, no country. Can't have a country without a flag. That's...the rules that...I've just made up!"

DjB

[PiggDogg]

What herb is being smoked here ???? :confused: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

The victory flags (VF) are not 'real' flags here. The are (strategic, operational, tactical, random, etc., who knows) victory locations (VL) to be controlled by either, both, or neither player. They are game devices to cause players to engage each other in some sort of realistic fashion.

Whew, I feel better now !!!!

Richard

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Hehe, I could just see Babra grabbing a flag and then making a hasty retreat off the map. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a tactical withdrawal dammit! A tactical withdrawal!!! :mad:

[Ellros]

Sounds like the drain in the Pool got clogged and now it's beginning to overflow

[Paco QNS]

Whole-heartly agree,

and -going far away-, I propose to:

A) put eagles on the top of French flag-poles (german ones had them also, IIRC, but -having in their claws the un-PC symbol, must be relegated to the hen-house).

include other VF-symbols, citing only a few:

1) campaign kitchens;

2) wine stocks (SMTHNG remembered, but wh?

3) real hard-drinking stocks;

4) .....-houses ---CENSORED---

any more proposals?

[Grisha]

The Soviets were renowned in their use of maskirovka VF redeployment. By late 1943, Soviet VF's could suddenly reappear in a totally new location, usually in the last 2-3 game turns. Sometimes, there was even the use of a number of fake VF's that were either moved or emplaced in more accessible areas to entice German reserves in a direction advantageous to the Soviets. The Soviet technique of maskirovka VF redeployment is little known, and much more work needs to be done to expand this information in the West.

[elalamein]

Thank you...

Warfare has now become so much clearer. I always thought it was about occupying strategically important locations.

I guess thats what Churchill meant in his famous "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech...as long as we kept retreating with our valuable flags we would never be beaten.

curse those tommies they are so fast with their flags call off the invasion now

[Michael Dorosh]

Now THIS is inspired. I only wish I wasn't paying 30 cents a minute for internet while I'm away from home. I would wax eloquent about the herringbone twill VFs the US Army introduced as a conservation measure to save silk for parachute construction....

[LC-]

OHH GOSH!! LOL YOU ALL ARE WAAAAAAY TOO MUCH!

[Wesreidau]

Whilst on the subject, Allied Paratroopers and German Fallschirmjaeger should be able to paradrop with their VF`s. The flag and associated extendable pole could easily be carried in a weapons container. What say you BTS?

I think we have them in a corner here guys!

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lawyer:

Unlike MG's, VF's are made of light materials with a portable pole, so that one or two men should be able to transport a VF rapidly, and even run with the VF for a considerable distance on the battlefield.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even now, military technology has miniaturised the VF. However, I would like to see it shrunk even further so that it can be 'inserted' into a 'volunteer' (ie, someone you really, really hate).

You can then frustrate the enemy as they try to locate it (QM: "Can't seem to put a finger on it, but the boys on the front are calling for more laxatives"!) , and readily smuggle it through customs when entering another country.

..err...umm...sorry, I always get VFs confused with illicit drugs.

Mace

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Mace ]

[ParaBellum]

Thx Lawyer!

I guess I'm a junkie. I need stuff like that every now and then...

And I think I just found a new sig line:

with (I hope so) kind permission of Babra:

[Clay]

Talking about flags: this reminds me that in the 1930s, a lot of countries had (oft-competing) claims to some of Antartica's territory (still the case in fact). The German Nazi government joined in the fun by having planes fly over Antartica and drop flags on it, thereby staking their claim... No small feat, but actually much easier than trying to establish and maintain a land base. It's not reported whether these flags engaged any foreign flags they might have encountered.

[Joe Shaw]

Lawyer You Idiot, trust you to bring up THAT old chestnut again. How many times must BTS explain that while MVF (Mobile Victory Flags) WERE used, their use was strictly limited to a STRATEGIC role and simply don't fit within the scale and scope of CMBO. Despite the SPECULATION of others on this thread ("Oh it shouldn't be too hard" ... "Why I bet one man could carry a couple" ... "I once carried a soccer corner flag for two blocks") BTS has, as usual, done it's homework and prohibited, rightly, the movement of MVF during the course of the game. ANYONE with half a brain (I realize this excludes YOU) only has to look at any map in CMBO and it will become immediately obvious that the MVF were DAMN BIG and HEAVY! All of this nonsense about moving the flags obscures the REAL issue ... why don't they block LOS? Trees do it, bridges do it, even educated bees ... no wait that's something else. Something that large would surely cause a major problem for the LOS and, AND if the wind is heavy how come you don't hear the flapping, huh, HUH?

Joe

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Joe Shaw ]

[Paco QNS]

Wes proposed:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Whilst on the subject, Allied Paratroopers and German Fallschirmjaeger should be able to paradrop with their VF`s. The flag and associated extendable pole could easily be carried in a weapons container.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not, but Germany "conquered" an entire CONTINENT in a similar way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Ice Reichis loosely based on a real-life Nazi expedition to the continent in 1938-39, where the Germans sought to lay claim by dropping swastika-marked spikes from the air. When they came ashore, they actually gave a Hitler salute to penguins." by William Dietrich<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also in this page you can read -before the last, in Foreign News-:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"New Schwabenland, Antarctica, a portion of Queen Maud Land, was surveyed from the air and mapped by a German Antarctic Expedition of 1938-39."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

((Talk about coincidences, on the same year -last item of Sciences-

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Googol, a name for 10 raised to the power of 100, is said to have been invented in 1938 when U.S. mathematician Edward Kasner asked his 9-year-old nephew to think up a name for a very large number, specifically, 1 with 100 zeroes after it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

which turned to inspired the creators of Google, the best searcher, IMHO. -which helped me to find this webpages, and many others-, lots of thanks from here! ))

Back to the topic, imagine a host of fighter-bombers "planting" their VFs anywhere on the map. Talk of close-ing support.

[-E]

You are all a bunch sick bastages (but not farging bastages). Now I know why I had to stop reading this BBS for awhile.

...Although Joe Shaw is the only one who's really hit upon the crux of the matter. A simple look at your screen will make it PAINFULLY OBVIOUS... those flags are WAY too large and WAY too heavy to move about. ESPECIALLY the major objective flags. You'd have to rope 5-6 heavy tanks together to even think about it (although making Tank Rafts were a common tactic (did you really think they supplied Lenningrad over ICE?), this tactic is beyond the scope of CM. I believe it was supposed to be incorporated in the game at one point (look at some of the skins, they have ROPE for tying up Tank Rafts on the sides of the tanks), you'd have to ask Charles why it was really dumped as it's absence really detracts from the game (and creates topics like this one).

[Doug Beman]

Nobody's yet mentioned the Nabelfloobleflagenwurfengewehr!

DjB

[Louie the Toad]

Says Toad, after picking himself up off of the floor due to an uncontrollable fit of laughter, "even while playing Capture The Flag we couldn't MOVE the flag !" Ha haha haha hahaha hahaha......I can't stop....haha

hahaha

[Bruno Weiss]

Babra wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's a tactical withdrawal dammit! A tactical withdrawal!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"We are not retreating - we are advancing in another Direction."

- General Douglas MacArthur

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Lars]

Did those gamey Germans move their capital again?

[russellmz]

but...what everyone has ignored up to now is the dreaded Legion Ex Machina, who always master the battlefield at the start of every battle. when one sees that machine grey fearsome "?" flag, a chill goes down one's privates(soldiers you perv's).

but as soon as the battle is joined, they disappear without a trace from superior enemy forces, sneaking past your most alert and stealth/command/combat bonused leaders like ghosts, only to be heard occasionally as their grey and with red "?" vehicles drive back and forth...

[-E]

I've really been thinking about the original post. Is he a public defender?