CM content creation and monetary gain (compensation)

[kohlenklau]

I (and some of you out there) have made tons of CM stuff (beauty in the eye of the beholder) and offered it up to the community for them to freely download. I have never even thought to ask or get a penny.

In the last year I have ventured off for the first time into steam and vassal.

Now I am getting some ASL scenario packs from 3rd parties and it costs a few bucks. I guess I have racked up some costs buying steam items too but that is straight at the publisher as DLC. But these ASL third party guys have been in business for almost 30 years doing a great job which only added to the community. Costs are compensated for printing and such.

*** I only very recently saw a CM related download tuck in a text file readme with a small blurb of "please give me a copper guvnor if you deem me worthy..'"

Even CMMODS/FGM has a way for folks to donate to them to keep them operational. Costs are compensated for website servers and the like I guess.

It is interesting that CM content is somewhat restricted in that how can you charge for your efforts? I imagine BFC has a legal edge to go at you? Imagine if Aris had asked for a few bucks for every download of his great mods.

For the CM content amateur it might be a labor of love to spend weekends and nights to make something. But a CM battlepack is a pay for content DLC. YES. These BP should be the cream of the crop content if you actually pay for them. I will not say that they are not. GeorgeMC and Ithikial are great creators.

BFC has supposedly sponsored or endorsed the suppository (my old joke!) shifting to FGM. Really called the repository back many years. I have no idea if that was financially compensated in any way. If not, then it means BFC has basically dumped any interest in a Steam workshop equivalent in the forums. Maybe with BFC CM going to steam, then the workshop is "re-supported" and an official BFC item. BUT and a big old butt, if we are just regular non-STEAM forumites, we don't have access to steam CM workshop community creations.

The point of this post was to just mention this as an issue. I don't have a solution. It could really impact people contributing if there was a reward system for content and number of downloads. A possible future kickback if what you uploaded was desired and considered good. Maybe internal reward points for future purchases or a big statue made of gold. 

 

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

I (and some of you out there) have made tons of CM stuff (beauty in the eye of the beholder) and offered it up to the community for them to freely download. I have never even thought to ask or get a penny.

In the last year I have ventured off for the first time into steam and vassal.

Now I am getting some ASL scenario packs from 3rd parties and it costs a few bucks. I guess I have racked up some costs buying steam items too but that is straight at the publisher as DLC. But these ASL third party guys have been in business for almost 30 years doing a great job which only added to the community. Costs are compensated for printing and such.

*** I only very recently saw a CM related download tuck in a text file readme with a small blurb of "please give me a copper guvnor if you deem me worthy..'"

Even CMMODS/FGM has a way for folks to donate to them to keep them operational. Costs are compensated for website servers and the like I guess.

It is interesting that CM content is somewhat restricted in that how can you charge for your efforts? I imagine BFC has a legal edge to go at you? Imagine if Aris had asked for a few bucks for every download of his great mods.

For the CM content amateur it might be a labor of love to spend weekends and nights to make something. But a CM battlepack is a pay for content DLC. YES. These BP should be the cream of the crop content if you actually pay for them. I will not say that they are not. GeorgeMC and Ithikial are great creators.

BFC has supposedly sponsored or endorsed the suppository (my old joke!) shifting to FGM. Really called the repository back many years. I have no idea if that was financially compensated in any way. If not, then it means BFC has basically dumped any interest in a Steam workshop equivalent in the forums. Maybe with BFC CM going to steam, then the workshop is "re-supported" and an official BFC item. BUT and a big old butt, if we are just regular non-STEAM forumites, we don't have access to steam CM workshop community creations.

The point of this post was to just mention this as an issue. I don't have a solution. It could really impact people contributing if there was a reward system for content and number of downloads. A possible future kickback if what you uploaded was desired and considered good. Maybe internal reward points for future purchases or a big statue made of gold. 

 

Actually if you use their games BF is the owner of any scenarios or mods people have created. Technically it may even be illegal to ask for money. I welcome any comments and I am hoping I am actually incorrect.

[Probus]

@kohlenklau, your work is good enough IMHO to rank with the awesome work of@George MC & @Ithikial_AU. Maybe ask what they did to get onto the team of creators. Since BFC is a small company, they might just like the help an experienced content creator like yourself. 

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, Probus said:

Maybe ask

No worry Greg. That was not at all my intention for this post.

I was just rambling after buying some pdf's.

No matter if you folks like ASL or not, this is a cool story....

STORY

I bought a collection of ASL pdf's. A 12 page publication made twice every year since 1990's.

A few scenarios. VERY WELL DONE. started as 2 per issue then moved to 4.

Articles and some photos.

I was sent issues 50-54 one day, 40-49 the next day, on and on until 1 to 9 today.

IT REALLY WAS TOUCHING AS THIS GUY'S LIFE UNFOLDED IN THE ARTICLES OVER THE LAST 27 YEARS.

It was a social scene of face to face meetings to fight battles with a gaming system.

People actually had passed on and were said goodbye to.

I cannot say that BFC CM PBEMs are better versus the face to face friendships of ASL competition.

I enjoy the PBEM experience with my PBEM buddies. Many do. It is normal. It is or can be awesome. PLEASE GO FOR IT TO SEE.

I honestly have never played an ASL roll the dice game head to head.

I HAVE now played and damn well enjoyed 21 VASL games with a buddy. My record is 7-14.

Best wishes to all, Phil

 

 

 

 

[Vacillator]

7 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

if we are just regular non-STEAM forumites, we don't have access to steam CM workshop community creations

Just a thought Phil, and correct me if I'm wrong, but all you would need is a Steam account, and your previous purchases of titles from BFC would give you access to the titles on Steam (assuming the titles you have are on Steam, but they 'soon' all will be I think).  Would that also give you access to the Steam community creations you describe?  I would have thought so.

Or is having a Steam account the problem?

EDIT:  I have played ASL face to face, crawling around on the living room floor as the table was otherwise occupied.  Avoiding an invasion by the cat was troublesome.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Vacillator

[Redwolf]

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Actually if you use their games BF is the owner of any scenarios or mods people have created. Technically it may even be illegal to ask for money. I welcome any comments and I am hoping I am actually incorrect.

Yeah, sorry that is nonsense. As long as you didn't reuse any CMx2 original base you are clear to ask for money, whether it is voluntary donations or "forced" before a download.

Just don't base your mod textures on CMx2 textures, they need to be made from scratch.

[kohlenklau]

30 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

you are clear to ask for money

but for scenarios and campaigns ?

[WimO]

I have on occasion considered selling my master maps and historical scenarios directly to Battlefront for a modest sum, for them to sell in turn as battlepacks for the community. My motivation was to support the Battlefront team in return for the years of enjoyment I have had from their games. ...BUT... then I considered that the community on the other hand spends a fair bit of allowance for games these days. So in the end I decided just to give my stuff freely to the community. After all, why would I try to 'sell' my modest contributions when so many other folks have freely contributed much more than me?

And, by the way, yes = if you use CM's editor to create content directly for their game, the legal language makes it very clear that you cannot monetize it.

I would like to see Battlefront make their code accessible to community programmers so that some out their can do some (unmonitized) modding right in the code. I have seen games in the past vastly improved, even updated when this was permitted. 

[Redwolf]

53 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

but for scenarios and campaigns ?

Same deal. As long as it is original from scratch you can charge.

To make an analogy, if you make a painting in photoshop then Adobe doesn't own the copyright either.

 

[37mm]

1 hour ago, kohlenklau said:

but for scenarios and campaigns ?

The license on the first page of all game manuals explicitly says that BFC owns everything including user made scenarios, campaigns & any mods.

BFC allows us to destribute these things amongst ourselves for free but written permission from BFC must be sought if you desire to sell anything.

[Erwin]

IIRC the guys who created CMCW did it with their own money but with BF support.  Maybe raising money do make a module eg: an Early War and/or Afrika Korps crowdfunding project?  That way you will see exactly how much support these titles may have.  Many of us here would love to see those modules.  But, the community here may not be representative of the average purchaser of BF games.  BF did not think CMCW worth developing on their own dime until proved wrong.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Erwin

[Redwolf]

54 minutes ago, 37mm said:

The license on the first page of all game manuals explicitly says that BFC owns everything including user made scenarios, campaigns & any mods.

Definitely not enforceable. Again, Adobe doesn't own what you make in Photoshop. You can redistribute works that aren't derived from other works any way you like. The tools don't matter as long as you don't ship parts of the tools.

The whole question is a bit academic. Nobody is going to sell a battle pack. At least not successfully. Asking for donations is a different matter.

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Redwolf said:

To make an analogy, if you make a painting in photoshop then Adobe doesn't own the copyright either.

Different terms of service. Adobe does business by subscription and yes their digital paintbrushes are for you to produce digital art as you see fit.

[Probus]

As an aside, I'm a great believer in user generated content.  I come here from the Experimentals Team of the Kerbal Space Program (KSP) world and the mods there abound.  They have been hugely successful.  They are about to release KSP 2 (early access).  But with KSP they have allowed much more access for the modders and KSP 2 is supposed to be even easier for the modders to do their thing.  

Just a warning though.  With that level of modding ability, we would have Combat Mission:Space Lobsters by the end of the year.  But CMBS/CMSF2 would also have every vehicle in Jane's on the battlefield too.  But... the authenticity may go down a few notches though.  And that's a big NoNo for BFC. 

[CarlXII]

5 hours ago, Redwolf said:

The whole question is a bit academic. Nobody is going to sell a battle pack. At least not successfully.

If the quality of their BPs are on par with official BFC products i belive they most certainly could. I would buy it in a  hartbeat...

[semmes]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:04 PM, Probus said:

But... the authenticity may go down a few notches though.  And that's a big NoNo for BFC.

What authenticity?

 

That of an ammo lorry carrying 6 ammo boxes or that of a LMG 42 only firing 50 rounds drums?

 

Vietnam, in terms of the UN Charter, was a war of American aggression. D. Ellsberg.

Edited February 11, 2023 by semmes
Comment.

[CarlXII]

53 minutes ago, semmes said:

What authenticity?

 

That of an ammo lorry carrying 6 ammo boxes or that of a LMG 42 only firing 50 rounds drums?

 

Vietnam, in terms of the UN Charter, was a war of American aggression. D. Ellsberg.

Some details here and there might be wrong or missing but compared to the competition CM is miles above the rest when it comes to authenticity and realism.

 

[semmes]

18 hours ago, CarlXII said:

Some details here and there

I would say you are quite generous with the word "details".

Yes, if I compare it with the WW2 version of The Game of The Goose it is great. If I compare with what it has been done wrong and could have been done right, I could call it terrible.

What if we don't compare it to anything but just look at its own quality?

I wonder what do they think, in the Professional Version, about the magic pixel through woods  and houses?, just another detail?

 

It is necessary to carry the war to the North in order to find a way out of the impasse... in the South. Pham B. Dong.

[slysniper]

2 hours ago, semmes said:

I would say you are quite generous with the word "details".

Yes, if I compare it with the WW2 version of The Game of The Goose it is great. If I compare with what it has been done wrong and could have been done right, I could call it terrible.

What if we don't compare it to anything but just look at its own quality?

I wonder what do they think, in the Professional Version, about the magic pixel through woods  and houses?, just another detail?

 

It is necessary to carry the war to the North in order to find a way out of the impasse... in the South. Pham B. Dong.

Spoken from someone that has no clue what it takes to get all the details correct.

It is clear the they make great efforts to get things right.

But in the real world, and with all the massive amount of data that these games require, yes, you are correct, a few things are wrong and incorrect.

But that attitude that if perfection isnt there, you have the right to act and say they have made no real efforts. 

Go fix yourself and your attitude, because there is way more imperfection there that what you see in these games.

 

[semmes]

6 hours ago, slysniper said:

and say they have made no real efforts.

Six ammo boxes.

[semmes]

7 hours ago, slysniper said:

Go fix yourself

Allow me to clarify.

I was talking about authenticity. I don't know about "efforts", it seems that you do. If you mean "results", then yes, I do think that the results of those efforts you know about are terrible. I have seen a lorry, I have seen an ammunition box: "Six Ammo Boxes".

Could you point out to me where I mention "real effort"? Someone wrote in the code "6", it could had been 40 or 100, so that when you edit/create an scenario, you need one lorry, not 16; besides "authenticity".

Could you point out my use of the word "perfection"? The code could be that after one minute, the LMG 42 is going to use a 250 ammo box, if not moving.

I do object about your "a few things" and that is my point about -lack of- authenticity.

There are more imperfection in the world!, really?

[Artkin]

Oh please dont derail this thread. There are others that we can use to point out whats wrong with the game

[semmes]

Indeed...

Now, if I sell a pack of scenarios and I get $1 for each download and 1.000 in a year... or, more realistically $0.1 and 100 downloads a year... is there any point?
On the other hand, getting a game or DLC for a pack of 5 or 10 scenarios, so they can add them to the game being sold... That would be nice and I don't think any player is going to complaint for having 40 scenarios instead of 10.
I would say people create scenarios because they want to play them, but having that incentive, I don't think it's going to push anyone back.
They are being created, so... is there any point?

[slysniper]

Oh, I think if people could make a little money on the side selling Scenarios, I think it would add to the amount of content out there. Not sure it would be good content, but it for sure would motivate some. And soon enough, people would figure out who is making good stuff.

I am sitting on 20 Tournament scenarios I have created right now, never posted for general use because I have not wanted to sit down and program AI plans for them.

But If I knew there was a payoff for doing it. I think it would make a difference.