How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Butschi]

2 minutes ago, Carolus said:

The collaborator regime? Which was neither free nor honorable?

I am not even sure they had much self-respect.

Surely, you jest.

My point precisely. They did have peace, though.

[panzermartin]

Hey, we "peacefully" existed 400 years under the ottoman rule after the fall of Istanbul. Not the greatest of time but we are still here Yeah, there are choices, maybe less honorable. But probably most will not trade their lives for the hardest option. 

Anyway, no need to be so dramatic, we are not there yet... 

[Battlefront.com]

3 minutes ago, Carolus said:

The collaborator regime? Which was neither free nor honorable?

I am not even sure they had much self-respect.

Surely, you jest.

Nor was it peaceful.  Nor did it last very long before Hitler signed a piece of paper and ended its existence.

Steve

[Aragorn2002]

11 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Vichy France would like a word with you.

Not the best of examples, my friend.

[Aragorn2002]

6 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Hey, we "peacefully" existed 400 years under the ottoman rule after the fall of Istanbul. Not the greatest of time but we are still here Yeah, there are choices, maybe less honorable. But probably most will not trade their lives for the hardest option. 

Anyway, no need to be so dramatic, we are not there yet... 

Perhaps we are not dramatic enough yet....

Food for thought. A Ukrainian would certainly agree.

Edited February 19 by Aragorn2002

[Grigb]

48 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Your refreshingly belligerent way of communicating never fails to amaze me.

For your education: It was part of a quote. The full one goes like this, I think:

 

Your refreshingly pseudointellectual high horse way of communicating never fails to amaze me.

For your education: it does not make it better or smarter becasue there are a lot of things that directly affect you but do not care about you making any choice. RU buttstock, bullet or nuke do not care about you or your choice or anything about you.

[Butschi]

11 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

 

Removed, sorry, clicked before thinking it through.

Edited February 19 by Butschi

[Grigb]

26 minutes ago, Ales Dvorak said:

And?

It was obviously RU operation. They blew up old pipes leaving new one undamaged and ready to work to force Germans to switch to the new pipe. 

[Ales Dvorak]

Just now, Grigb said:

It was obviously RU operation. They blew up old pipes leaving new one undamaged and ready to work to force Germans to switch to the new pipe. 

Any credible source? 

[Kraft]

Maxim Kuzminov, the russian Pilot who surrendered the helicopter to Ukraine last year was found dead in Spain.

[Jiggathebauce]

Don't really see the point of the Patton quote posting. Far right people love to post another quote of his that "we fought the wrong enemy", implying that he would rather have allied with the nazis. Guy was a piece of work. In his own words, quoted in Peter Harts The Last Battle, during the American offensive in 1918, Patton thought he killed an American soldier who was shell  shocked, hitting him over the head. Somehow this anecdotal admission of possible manslaughter/murder has been completely forgotten despite the scandal in WW2 when Patton simply slapped a soldier.  This wasn't the only time Patton would inflict violence against soldiers of his own country who fought in the first war, he helped put down with force the Bonus Army that marched to DC to get the benefits they were owed. 

Patton was no hero and isn't worth celebrating.

Edited February 19 by Jiggathebauce
Typo

[Aragorn2002]

16 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

Hey, we "peacefully" existed 400 years under the ottoman rule after the fall of Istanbul. Not the greatest of time but we are still here Yeah, there are choices, maybe less honorable. But probably most will not trade their lives for the hardest option. 

Anyway, no need to be so dramatic, we are not there yet... 

But we'll get there if enough people keep thinking like you do.

[Grigb]

Just now, Ales Dvorak said:

Any credible source? 

Credible source for what? That the pipe from Putin's pet project was not blown up? That was in all news articles. That the same pipe is in working condition and ready to be used quickly? I gave the source.  

[Butschi]

13 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Your refreshingly pseudointellectual high horse way of communicating never fails to amaze me.

For your education: it does not make it better or smarter becasue there are a lot of things that directly affect you but do not care about you making any choice. RU buttstock, bullet or nuke do not care about you or your choice or anything about you.

Q.e.d., I guess. Is ad hominem and being rude really your only way to deal with people who happen to not share your opinion?

Makes for a bad discussion and that is what we are here for isn't it?

Edited February 19 by Butschi

[Fernando]

1 minute ago, Grigb said:

Credible source for what? That the pipe from Putin's pet project was not blown up? That was in all news articles. That the same pipe is in working condition and ready to be used quickly? I gave the source.  

In so far the only source is the GUR. There is no information from official Spanish sources yet. 

[Butschi]

5 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Credible source for what? That the pipe from Putin's pet project was not blown up? That was in all news articles. That the same pipe is in working condition and ready to be used quickly? I gave the source.  

Credible source, in the sense of solid evidence, that it was the Russians. The fact that one pipeline was not blown up can have all sorts of reasons and is not evidence of Russian sabotage.

Edited February 19 by Butschi

[Ales Dvorak]

4 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Credible source for what? That the pipe from Putin's pet project was not blown up? That was in all news articles. That the same pipe is in working condition and ready to be used quickly? I gave the source.  

Credible source for Russia did it. You probably remember that mantra...

[Aragorn2002]

12 minutes ago, Jiggathebauce said:

Don't really see the point of the Patton quote posting. Far right people love to post another quote of his that "we fought the wrong enemy", implying that he would rather have allied with the nazis. Guy was a piece of work. In his own words, quoted in Peter Harts The Last Battle, during the American offensive in 1918, Patton thought he killed an American soldier who was shell  shocked, hitting him over the head. Somehow this anecdotal admission of possible manslaughter/murder has been completely forgotten despite the scandal in WW2 when Patton simply slapped a soldier.  This wasn't the first time Patton inflicted violence against soldiers of his own country who fought in the first war, he helped put down with force the Bonus Army that marched to DC to get the benefits they were owed. 

Patton was no hero and isn't worth celebrating.

O yes he was. And history proved him right.

But enough of this.

[omae2]

10 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Credible source for what? That the pipe from Putin's pet project was not blown up? That was in all news articles. That the same pipe is in working condition and ready to be used quickly? I gave the source.  

In the tucker interview he basically say out why it was blown up. First he give hes usual i don't know it could be you bs, then he goes on a rant that why Germany not using the third pipe. Before that he said that you should think about who had interest in blowing the pipes up. Well he had. With the russian elite one always have to keep mind that they view telling the truth weakness. I realized this in 22 march when lavrov said that they did not attack Ukraine. They think that lying is privilege of the powerful and only those tell the truth who don't have any other choice.

[poesel]

7 hours ago, Maciej Zwolinski said:

I am hoping for that as well, but I am not sure how this could happen.

Russian glide bombs are tossed from the distance of 50 km to front line on the Russian side. AFAIK Su 34 (and as of late also Su 24 unfortunately) approach high

...

This means, that in order to counter those attacks Ukrainian aircraft would have to be able to reliably shoot down Su 34 and Su 24 on their approach flight to the bomb release point (say 70 km behind the front on the Russian side?). Assuming the Ukrainian aircraft are F-16 with AIM 120 C they theoretically could do it, the missiles having a 100 km. range. However, F-16 would be fighting from big positional disadvantage. In order to hide from RUS SAMs and air-to-air patrols, the F-16s would probably be approaching very low.

...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are a lot of 'ifs' in this calculation.

First is if the F-16 will have data integration with an AWACS. That would allow the Ukrainians to fly and shoot without active radar. Huge advantage.

Next is the type of missile. If they get the AIM120D instead of the C they have 160km instead of 105km. Or they get Meteors and now they have 200km.

The attacking SUs can't hog the ground to drop their bombs. They would be vulnerable until they can loose their loads.

OTOH the R37 missile is supposed to have a range of 300km. Who knows how much it really has. A S400 has +500km range, but Russia has already lost some of them.

Range doesn't mean you have a certain kill, but you can still spoil an attack even with a missile that missed in the end.

So the F-16 is no Wunderwaffe, but it makes the life of the Russian pilots much more difficult. Especially if they get that AWACS integration. And history has shown that the Russians need some time to learn, and this is where I hope they will fall out of the sky.

3 hours ago, Grigb said:

In other news - Whoever blew Nost Stream up very conveniently (for RU) left one pipeline undamaged and ready to work.

Won't help you much if the other end of that pipe is closed.

[Kinophile]

4 hours ago, cesmonkey said:

They claim 6 total. But if the Russians shot one of their own Su-35s, that would be 5 by Ukraine.
 

However, Russian telegrammers are debating whether they might have shot down more of their own.

The whole FF narrative is pretty ridiculous in this day and age, even with Russia Sux TM. 

Sure, that is initially when the invasion started, but two years in, and at this supposed rate of FF? 

Cmon guvnor. Yer avin a larf. 

Condescending nationalistic delicate egos desperate to avoid evelvating Khokols to peer abiilty, more likely. 

 

Edited February 19 by Kinophile

[panzermartin]

16 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

But we'll get there if enough people keep thinking like you do.

You think so? History has taught us that the fall first comes from moral/economic /social decline and bad strategies of decades not because of an individual's thoughts.

No, Russia alone can't do that much damage to us, just like the Huns didn't bring Rome down all on their own. 

 

[Grigb]

5 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Credible source, in the sense of solid evidence, that it was the Russians. The fact that one pipeline was not blown up can have all sorts of reasons and is not evidence of Russian sabotage.

 

18 minutes ago, Ales Dvorak said:

Credible source for Russia did it. You probably remember that mantra...

First of all, it does not work like this. We are not in the court room, and we are not in the court procedure. We are making assessments based on available information 

Second, we have two solid facts - the most important for Putin pipe was not blowen. And the same pipe is actually in fully working condition. 

So, let me be clear - I do have solid facts for my assessment while you both do not. All you have is your opinion that these two facts are not enough for you to make your own assessment. Fair enought.

Now, given your opinion (that you need something more credible) please provide me with screenshots when you ask the same thing from RU public (for example screenshots of you asking RU public to provide credible source for Putin statement that US did it).

If you fail to provide them then I am forced to make an assessment that opinion is not based on your fair judgment but on your personal pro-RU bias.  

[Grigb]

1 hour ago, Butschi said:

That is not semantics. It makes all the difference in the world to make that choice deliberately or be forced to.

This is exactly playing with semantics. It is up to Putin to decide to start WW3. You do not have any choice whatsoever. 

[FancyCat]

Need I remind all Putin has desires for the restoration of Imperial Russia and that Ukraine is essential to further ambitions? If Ukraine falls, the risk to NATO and EU only increases. And sure, full out war would result in a wipeout, but Russia specializes in hybrid warfare.