How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[akd]

9 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Drones in the clip were probably looking for infantry.  Was going to say they really need something that can be a HEAT warhead, those cluster bomb sub-munitions would appear to be a perfect option.

If actually Switchblade-600, it has the same warhead as latest Javelin ATGM.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Beleg85 said:

It's pretty obvious Da Vinci was far right nationalist to a pont; it's almost impossible belong to RS and not having a lot of exposition to extremist views. Almost all nationalists are or end as far right, btw. It's simply nature of this kind of ideologies- they are like self-spinning wheel normal guys can't control in the end, even if they think they can. However Haiduk is right that Ukraine has countless variations of nationalisms, including some pretty odd ones, like "non-ethnic" nationalism (which experiences of XX century spectacularly refuted everywhere in Europe- but not everyone get the memo). Others, more measured and smater, imagine nationalisms as a stage for development of a country that must be gone through for a generation or two in order to let it go later. Looking at homini sovieticii in Donbas, hard to blame them...however they are also wrong in the end. Generally experimenting with these narrations almost always leads to troubles.

That being said, it is terrible that such young guys must die defending their country during this war, and far-right folks have the same right to fight for it as queer from Kiyv nightclubs. All in all, it's Russians who are fault. Glory to the braves, even if they were misguided during lifetime.

Yes, this is pure "far right extremism" - a will to live in own free country, according own tradiotions, speaking own language, developing own culture, keep a spirit of own nation and readiness to fight for all this if need on the city squares or with a weapon. 

And this is very big luck for Ukraine we have alot of such "extremists" who just have no scare to upset. Without their "extremism" Ukriane would be go such way as Belarus. And Maidan would be degraded in endless songs and useless speeches. 

And despite Dontsov ideology was pure fascism it gave strong pulse to form numerous cohorts of young people, who were ready to sacrifice own lives in struggle in order to Ukrianian nation will survive and will not disappeare, being completely Russianized ot Polonized. Yes, often they used methods, which blamed in modern world. But thet hadn't other choice. Weak socialistic Ukrainian People Republic was lost in stupid pacifism and useless discussions. They were doomed to choice Dontsov ideology. Other in that conditions just would led all national movement to next defeat or to conformism. They knew, they rather "...will fall in the fight for it" then "will win", but they went to this goal like fanatics. "We will fall in this battle, but we will become that soil, on which will grow next generation of fighters, whi will win free Ukraine" - this said somebody of UPA commanders. UPA fought as organized army on three fronts without any external support for six years and then about 10-11 years as underground armed resistanse. Long time in our society the opinion took place that we got independence in 1991 "for free" and most of people don't value it, because "freedom wasn't poured by patriots blood". But developments of 2004-2005, 2014 and now showed that this frontier, Cossacks, UPA spirit of self-sacrifice for own land and own lyfestyle is alive and can create miracles, when nobody expects this. 

So, no need to boil over big number of "far-right" soldiers, red&black chevrons, Bandera, white crosses on tanks etc. No any "Bandera-cult" in Ukraine. But he is just partially mythologized symbol of sacrifice in a struggle for independence. And for most Ukrianians he just became a meme person to troll Russians. Our nationalism doesn't direct outside Ukraine, though a couple our hystorical lands now a part of other countries. No one leader of any significant "far-right" UKR force didn't claim it should be taken back. Unlike some politics not only in Russia, which sight about "Polish L'vov" or "Hungarian Uzhgorod" we want to keep our own.

Here is chevron of UKR soldier, killed in Ilovaisk massacre. His blood repainted national colors in red&black. Since that time these colors not only OUN flag, this is our national flag of resistance, flag of "Ukriane-at-war" our "oriflamme". Just do not force us to rise it again and again.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Haiduk

[Huba]

1 hour ago, Fenris said:

Poland has been living up to what it promises so hopefully this pans out sooner rather than later

 

This is being talked about ad nauseum since at least 8 months, but it seems it is about to bear some fruits at last. My guess is that this time was spent on integrating as many western weapons as possible. There was even some talk recently about AIM-120, which I guess would mean a new radar. We shall see, it is a very interesting gossip.

Slovaks reportedly want to keep 1 airframe as a museum piece, and some of PL MiGs (the ex-DDR ones) are more likely to be used as spare parts donors due to their very poor shape and potential re-export limitations. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Huba

[Beleg85]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Yes, often they used methods, which blamed in modern world. But thet hadn't other choice.

Not true, they had plenty of choice. You think you were the first country in the world to fight for its existence? There were (and are) many nations struggling/fighting for its  independence that did not commit genocide and ethnic cleansing on massive scale- and OUN/UPA complex did. Not only on Poles, but also Jews, Armenians, Hungarians and other Ukrainians too (there were some who payed with their blood for saving their neighbours from UPA henchmen; much more numerous did cooperate, ofc.). What for example did to "brave Ukrainians patriots" some Armenian girls from Kuty village that were collectivelly raped? Is nailing local priest to a table and let him die a part of some "long but accepted struggle for freedom"? BS all along, in the darwinistic spirit of "new nationalism" by Viatrovych and similar folks. Actually, very similar to what Russian nats say minus imperialism.

 

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

o any "Bandera-cult" in Ukraine. But he is just partially mythologized symbol of sacrifice in a struggle for independence. And for most Ukrianians he just became a meme person to troll Russians. Our nationalism doesn't direct outside Ukraine, though a couple our hystorical lands now a part of other countries. No one leader of any significant "far-right" UKR force didn't claim it should be taken back. Unlike some politics not only in Russia, which sight about "Polish L'vov" or "Hungarian Uzhgorod" we want to keep our own.

Which politician specifically say "Polish Lviv"? There was one such political figure maybe 30 years ago (surprise, surprise- nationalist). There is literally nobody normal talking about any border revisionism. I am not sure about Hungary though. Btw. did Azov movement already prepared their crusade to "liberate" Ukrainian lands up to Caucasus like they announced in their famous "burning Viking longship" happening? Again, this is just one example of rosy vision of nationalism so many inteligent Ukrainians unfortunatelly betray.*

While I get your opinion and are sympathetic a lot to it (myself mentioned about this relentless Cossack spirit here several times), I simply refuse to "go by" by barbarisms commited by entire Banderite complex. Why? Because ultimately, nationalism is poisonous ideology; it's rediscovered tribalism, modifed to suit modern tastes and means. Best is to view it in wider, European complex- it was not so dissimilar to other movements, and actually was insipred heavily by them. Arrowcrossers, Iron Guard, ONR, you name it- these guys were very, very similar in their views. Nothing particulary exceptional about Ukrainian version.

What is memic about a guys who murdered in most horrific, cruel way thousands of innocents? Sorry, it's bull**** based on selected, nationalistic vision of history. Or worse- lack of knowledge. Unlike victims of Hlodomor, victims of UPA probably does not have a single sincere museum in entire bloody country, beside post-soviet localized anti-UPA sentiments, of course. One could also hardly find a decent (sources-based), widely read book in your language from perspective of victims, without this terrible blaming-dance that so many authors of "heroic-UPA" literature laying in Lviv bookshops betray.

*Btw. Ukrainian People Republic did not fall because some naive pacifism, but that is material for long essay and an offtopic.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beleg85

[Battlefront.com]

13 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

While I get your opinion and are sympathetic a lot to it (myself mentioned about this relentless Cossack spirit here several times), I simply refuse to "go by" by barbarisms commited by entire Banderite complex.

This is the problem with nationalism in a nutshell.  It is an essential ingredient to a cohesive state, especially one that has been historically repressed.  Unfortunately, it isn't a stable influence.  Nationalism is like alcoholism... in small amounts in the right circumstances it is fine.  However, if a person spends all of their time and energy focused on consuming alcohol, sooner or later it is going to conspire to create a very bad situation.  When an alcoholic is confronted with the dangers of their behavior, denial, blame, distraction, false promises, violence, etc. are very often the response to being challenged.  Positive relationships people suffer, problems with law enforcement tends to increase.  The more extreme the alcoholism, the more extreme the ill effects.  The more unstable the person was before becoming an alcoholic, the more unstable after.

It is not a perfect analogy, but one thing is true above all others... ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.  It has to be confronted, it has to be exposed.  People need to be educated about it so they don't fall victim to it.  Law enforcement needs to be tailored to enforce standards and to prosecute those who violate them.

I live in a country that was founded on extremist nationalism.  It still exists and, unfortunately, is on the rise again.  There's nothing good about that.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

On a much lighter note...

 

[Harmon Rabb]

3 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

On a much lighter note...

 

Memes become reality.

 

[Beleg85]

11 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

This is the problem with nationalism in a nutshell.  It is an essential ingredient to a cohesive state, especially one that has been historically repressed.  Unfortunately, it isn't a stable influence.  Nationalism is like alcoholism... in small amounts in the right circumstances it is fine.  However, if a person spends all of their time and energy focused on consuming alcohol, sooner or later it is going to conspire to create a very bad situation.  When an alcoholic is confronted with the dangers of their behavior, denial, blame, distraction, false promises, violence, etc. are very often the response to being challenged.  Positive relationships people suffer, problems with law enforcement tends to increase.  The more extreme the alcoholism, the more extreme the ill effects.  The more unstable the person was before becoming an alcoholic, the more unstable after.

It is not a perfect analogy, but one thing is true above all others... ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.  It has to be confronted, it has to be exposed.  People need to be educated about it so they don't fall victim to it.  Law enforcement needs to be tailored to enforce standards and to prosecute those who violate them.

I live in a country that was founded on extremist nationalism.  It still exists and, unfortunately, is on the rise again.  There's nothing good about that.

Steve

USA based on nationalism? Comme on, up to Civil War there was hardly an "American" nation- it is very different Enlightment project, with massive importance of Constitution, juridiciary, emigration, freedom of speech etc. Ofc. last events on Capitol were indeed troubling, but still US is "different"- in positive way. That's why for example even smart American scholars (like T.Snyder) struggle to understand continental notions and differences between nationhood (which is fairly neutral, sociological process) and nationalism (which is political ideology).

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beleg85

[Battlefront.com]

Here's some footage of a Ukrainian position somewhere in Luhansk, I'd guess in the Svatove area.  Gives a HUGE contrast in terms of terrain and weather from what we've been seeing in the Donetsk front.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/11n3d8v/ukrainian_defenders_hold_the_high_ground/

You can hear something that sounds like a tank off in the distance.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

27 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

USA based on nationalism?

You missed my point a little.  The United States acquired its territory and power through aggressive nationalist expansionist ideology and racial theories which led to genocide.  Manifest Destiny is not apolitical or about nation building.  And if anybody challenged any of this, nationalism was ratcheted up and the target crushed.

As a New Englander I would also say that there was nothing neutral about the political ideology that caused the American Revolution.  While it started out as more regional self determination, it morphed into the fundamental philosophy that created the United States.  That then led to Manifest Destiny and, in turn, the splitting of national identity that led to the Civil War.  That schism still exists, as we are being reminded of more recently.

Steve

[Beleg85]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

You missed my point a little.  The United States acquired its territory and power through aggressive nationalist expansionist ideology and racial theories which led to genocide.  Manifest Destiny is not apolitical or about nation building.  And if anybody challenged any of this, nationalism was ratcheted up and the target crushed.

As a New Englander I would also say that there was nothing neutral about the political ideology that caused the American Revolution.  While it started out as more regional self determination, it morphed into the fundamental philosophy that created the United States.  That then led to Manifest Destiny and, in turn, the splitting of national identity that led to the Civil War.  That schism still exists, as we are being reminded of more recently.

Steve

I mean from that perspective you are right. If I remember Manifest Destiny was created ca.1840's, so 60 years after Revolution, during first wave of such blatant US imperialism of Polk's era (Mexico invasion soon followed) and pretty sharp religious tensions on the top of that. But before it was fairly inclusive society- black soldiers in Continental Army for that matter, hardly normal sight two generations later. There was tragic story of Indians (or Natives, in more PC terms), but I think these guys were doomed from the start- like almost any stone-age cultures faced with era of steam engines. And ofc. tragedy of Africans, the worst stain on US history.

About Revolution - ofc. it was not neutral, it was Revolution after all . But in the meantime, milions of emigrants were coming from Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland etc. USA was pretty generous land for them, even if there were tensions you still end up having massively heterogenic society, where people are free to cultivate their own ethnicity generations later, without collision with being American in the same time. Even after 200 years you can be "German American" or "Italian American" (Tonny Soprano et all...;) ), because the "core" is more about legal acts, "way of life"* and other Enlightment factors. It is more a "political nation" Haiduk mentioned than anything met in Europe. Ofc. there is also ethnicity, but it is different enough for us to have even classification problems to appear bewteen Yanks and Continentals.

Not the same thing in Europe, unfortunatelly, which was raged by violent ethnonationalisms fixed on "unifying" everything and everybody.

*Compare it to pathetic "Russian world" and difference is like between top, chromed 18-wheeler and inflated dummy Kamaz truck. US is genuinely attractive across the world (even if we, more cynical Europeans rarely admitt it), because what it is and symbolically represents, even beside entire hard power.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beleg85

[FancyCat]

1 hour ago, Beleg85 said:

I mean from that perspective you are right. If I remember Manifest Destiny was created ca.1840's, so 60 years after Revolution, during first wave of such blatant US imperialism of Polk's era (Mexico invasion soon followed) and pretty sharp religious tensions on the top of that. But before it was fairly inclusive society- black soldiers in Continental Army for that matter, hardly normal sight two generations later. There was tragic story of Indians (or Natives, in more PC terms), but I think these guys were doomed from the start- like almost any stone-age cultures faced with era of steam engines. And ofc. tragedy of Africans, the worst stain on US history.

About Revolution - ofc. it was not neutral, it was Revolution after all . But in the meantime, milions of emigrants were coming from Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland etc. USA was pretty generous land for them, even if there were tensions you still end up having massively heterogenic society, where people are free to cultivate their own ethnicity generations later, without collision with being American in the same time. Even after 200 years you can be "German American" or "Italian American" (Tonny Soprano et all...;) ), because the "core" is more about legal acts, "way of life"* and other Enlightment factors. It is more a "political nation" Haiduk mentioned than anything met in Europe. Ofc. there is also ethnicity, but it is different enough for us to have even classification problems to appear bewteen Yanks and Continentals.

Not the same thing in Europe, unfortunatelly, which was raged by violent ethnonationalisms fixed on "unifying" everything and everybody.

*Compare it to pathetic "Russian world" and difference is like between top, chromed 18-wheeler and inflated dummy Kamaz truck. US is genuinely attractive across the world (even if we, more cynical Europeans rarely admitt it), because what it is and symbolically represents, even beside entire hard power.

No, sadly you are incorrect, manifest destiny actually has it's start pre-revolution, part of the grievances against the Crown was the inability to push Indians further west, inability to settle Canada that the crown restricted.

Much of the rest is also incorrect but Im busy.

[chuckdyke]

6 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

stone-age cultures

This says it all ignorance at its best. We meet the same in Australia, land navigation was only improved with the invention of the GPS. Aboriginals used star maps marked out on the land they travelled through. Different developed cultures are not inferior, simply different. The bush pharmacy also survives till the present day. Civilization the ability to administer and build cities. The concept of chauvinism and racism. Farming communities are still seen as lesser than communities in cities. That is where the universities are. What politics originate there is politically correctness.

Edited March 10, 2023 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

nothing neutral about the political ideology that caused the American Revolution.

Somebody said a revolution by English gentlemen against German King George.

[FancyCat]

1 hour ago, Beleg85 said:

stone-age cultures faced with era of steam engines. And ofc. tragedy of Africans, the worst stain on US history.

About Revolution - ofc. it was not neutral, it was Revolution after all . But in the meantime, milions of emigrants were coming from Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland etc. USA was pretty generous land for them, even if there were tensions you still end up having massively heterogenic society, where people are free to cultivate their own ethnicity generations later, without collision with being American in the same time. Even after 200 years you can be "German American" or "Italian American" (Tonny Soprano et all...;) ), because the "core" is more about legal acts, "way of life"* and other Enlightment factors. It is more a "political nation" Haiduk mentioned than anything met in Europe. Ofc. there is also ethnicity, but it is different enough for us to have even classification problems to appear bewteen Yanks and Continentals.

Not the same thing in Europe, unfortunatelly, which was raged by violent ethnonationalisms fixed on "unifying" everything and everybody.

*Compare it to pathetic "Russian world" and difference is like between top, chromed 18-wheeler and inflated dummy Kamaz truck. US is genuinely attractive across the world (even if we, more cynical Europeans rarely admitt it), because what it is and symbolically represents, even beside entire hard power.

stone age? Mayans and Aztecs had cities that rivaled any in Europe. In North America, the same was true. Had the diseases unleashed by European arrival not occurred, i daresay history would have been far different. 

And incorrect on ethnic and racial tensions unleashed due to different ethnic groups, incorrect by far. Nativist parties opposed to immigrant of these new European groups were significant political forces in the U.S.

I will be blunt, your idea of the U.S in this post is quite untrue. Tho like Steve said, definitely a example of the nationalism that continues to influence the world, in varying amounts. 

[LongLeftFlank]

10 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Here is a very interesting read. @LongLeftFlank

While reading the post from Galeev and Suyi控 , one of the Suyi控’s opinion posted back in Jan caught my attention.  He believes the Putin’s war preparation began as early as 2016.

https://www.zhihu.com/question/566794678/answer/2837159962

He presents two arguments.

1,   Russia formed 10 division from 2016-22. Usually people believe this expansion is a Shoigu’s office politics tricks , to appease the Russian army officer corps (because Serdyukov's reform kills a lot of promotion opportunities for the young officers) . Here Suyi控believes this is a sign of war preparation.

2, most interesting part, he states that Russia rapidly expended the ammunition production back in 2016, he put two references ,

https://tass.ru/ekonomika/13526061    

https://realnoevremya.ru/articles/81757-opk-gotovitsya-zavalit-rynok-feyerverkami-vmesto-patronov

I am not sure how strong the evidence is because usually it doesn’t tell too much if the market of ammunition + special chemicals increased 23% revenue from 2015 to 2016.  But I have never heard any other similar opinion claims Putin prepare this “SMO” as early as 2016.

Anyway, an interesting read.

Many thanks for this.

Suyi's analysis is excellent, although since my foreign language skills (beyond tres mal high school French) are limited to ordering  beer and finding a WC in 3 dozen countries, I mainly check in on his English Twitter feed.

While house experts here like to beat me up over doomsaying (and should feel free to do so), I continue to check 'the other side of the hill' for early indicators or hints of improvement. It's too important not to.

****

There is only one industrial power in the world today capable of ramping production of low tech artillery shells and other low-to-medium tech consumables within 6 month timeframes, and it's China.  Russia, no way.

I'm not in the miltech business, but I have watched China basically eat the entire global (high tech but mature) wind turbine OEM sector alive over the last 5 years.

No foreign maker competes today unless they put their branding on a 95%+ Chinese built product, that is (outside the West) installed (and likely maintained by) Chinese EPC engineers and technicians all the way down to welders, using Chinese construction equipment and hand tools. Vertically integrated.

Let us not fool ourselves about their capabilities to ramp up production of pretty much any mature tech by orders of magnitude in periods measured in months, given a directive from Beijing. 

They are well beyond the cheap knockoffs stage now, although they'll certainly cut corners, if they can make money off it (and not get shot in a stadium).

****

IMHO, the 'European Slavic' countries, using US and EU capital and knowhow, and where most people still make things (experienced engineers and machinists and, sorry, plumbers are still available), need to become (one of the) Western alternatives to China ASAP, first in the heavy military and then more broadly in the wider heavy manufacturing sector.

But it is not clear (again IMHO) whether the 'old West' business sector, even old 'MIC' fixtures like Boeing and GE, have not already gone too far up their own McKinseyized/ financialized/Black Rock ESG activist posteriors to be more of a help than a barrier in aiding this transition.

Let's just say it, this needs to be a government led effort and let's face it, that's Team America (**** yeah!).

[/screed]

[sburke]

I'm gonna bring up squirrels again

[Beleg85]

51 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

stone age? Mayans and Aztecs had cities that rivaled any in Europe. In North America, the same was true. Had the diseases unleashed by European arrival not occurred, i daresay history would have been far different. 

What Aztecs has to do with US in 1800? Read the post again, carefully. Which native North American culture that colonists met was not predminantly stone based (ok, several more widely used some copper axes)? Btw. info for non-archeolgists: stone is determinate of predominant tools, not mark social or cultural sophistication- basically the ceiling what you can do with stuff. In agriculture, warfare, hunting, crafts etc. None of those folks developed significant iron on their own, and despite occassionaly very complex political structures (Mississipi culture or Iroqui for example) have no chances against colonists in long run. I think history of peoples in the North America would be roughly the same with deaseses or without them, disparity in population and mode of life simply massively favoured newcomers on every gound.

51 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

And incorrect on ethnic and racial tensions unleashed due to different ethnic groups, incorrect by far. Nativist parties opposed to immigrant of these new European groups were significant political forces in the U.S.

I will be blunt, your idea of the U.S in this post is quite untrue. Tho like Steve said, definitely a example of the nationalism that continues to influence the world, in varying amounts. 

Ok, going back to main thesis: US version of ethnicity and identity is different than in most European countries. It could be extremely brutal on racial lines in USA history and had obvious Anglophone dominant, but in the same time most (white) newcomers did not find it too difficult to adapt and still retain parts of their heritage. There were some country-wide massacres of German towns or ethnic cleansings of Scandinavian farmers? Some massive pogroms of Jews I missed compared to what happenned in Tsarist Russia or Germany during WWII? Irish could get it rough at times, and Africanamericans and Chinese are separate matter in the context of the era. But this is nothing compared to what was happening in especially XX cent. Europe.

US project is genuinly a creation of emigrants, unlike Old Continent.

57 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

This says it all ignorance at its best. We meet the same in Australia, land navigation was only improved with the invention of the GPS. Aboriginals used star maps marked out on the land they travelled through. Different developed cultures are not inferior, simply different. The bush pharmacy also survives till the present day. Civilization the ability to administer and build cities. The concept of chauvinism and racism. Farming communities are still seen as lesser than communities in cities. That is where the universities are. What politics originate there is politically correctness.

Who said anything about "inferiority" of anybody?? Musket, train, efficent agriculture, metal swords or this small thing called modern beaurocratic state that can generate and sustain armies hundreds thousands in winter does not care about your or mine feelings, higher spiritual values or that somebody make beautiful jewelry, sorry. This is pretty simple, observeable historical effect of meeting of cultures that have widely different tools and concepts of conquest. Btw. I professionally study these things in regard to barbaricum/Roman Empire dynamics. It's historical basics on level of first year of History, really. Only things that stopped Romans from conquest in long run was they were not profitable enough.- and  just purely technical gap between "barbarians" and Romans was way smaller than between native people of Americas and colonizers. Sorry, history is brutal, and it is very good we now try to give those people their place- but it does not change a fact that withing context of an era they have zero chances to survive as they were.

And what Aborigens even have to do with North Americans? Another storm in a cup of water.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beleg85

[danfrodo]

11 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Let's just say it, this needs to be a government led effort and let's face it, that's Team America (**** yeah!).

Didn't see that comin' from LLFlank.  Thanks for the post, it definitely rings true w me overall. 

Stupid Mao tried to do idiot 5 year plans for industrializing & modernizing & becoming self sufficient.  Later Chinese leaders just said "hey, capitalists only care about profits and we have cheap labor!  And no pollution laws!".  And the stampede began.   Meanwhile, China got better & better & better and now can often say "yeah, we'll just make that ourselves, don't really need US overlords who now only have marketing & finance depts". 

edit: oh, yeah, sorry for continuing derailment of thread.  I'm done, I promise.  Unless someone brings up the NFL.  Or guitars or amps.  Or sausage. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by danfrodo

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

I professionally study these things in regard to barbaricum/Roman Empire dynamics. It's historical basics on level of first year of History

It says enough thinks you know everything from a politically correct European institution where ignorance rules. I have nothing further to say to you. Racism in disguise. This thread is about Ukraine stick to it.

Edited March 10, 2023 by chuckdyke

[sburke]

4 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

Didn't see that comin' from LLFlank.  Thanks for the post, it definitely rings true w me overall. 

Stupid Mao tried to do idiot 5 year plans for industrializing & modernizing & becoming self sufficient.  Later Chinese leaders just said "hey, capitalists only care about profits and we have cheap labor!  And no pollution laws!".  And the stampede began.   Meanwhile, China got better & better & better and now can often say "yeah, we'll just make that ourselves, don't really need US overlords who now only have marketing & finance depts". 

mmm count me as one of those skeptical of China's prowess.  Yeah they can create a slave factory to make iPhones but they also build stuff like this....  This is not an Escher drawing, that building is now horizontal.

[Beleg85]

2 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It says enough thinks you know everything from a politically correct European institution where ignorance rules. I have nothing further to say to you. Racism in disguise. This thread is about Ukraine stick to it.

Jesus.

Ok, I won't play this odd game, let's better get back to topic perhaps.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beleg85

[Battlefront.com]

2 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

US project is genuinly a creation of emigrants, unlike Old Continent.

Oh, I agree that by comparison the US has set a better example than pretty much any other peer when it comes to integration of different religions, races, and languages.  And no, we did not have pogroms and (for the most part) legalized discrimination (African Americans being the big exception).  But whoa boy were things NOT good for the first couple of generations.  Animosities of immigrants carried over to America pretty much intact and there was always fights to make sure some other group was at the bottom and kept there.

But we're straying off topic and things are getting heated.  So let's call it a day on this one, eh?

The point of all this was to remind everybody that nationalism is a problem everywhere.  Sometimes more so than at other times, sometimes more in one place than another.  Nobody should get too comfortable with their own country's track record or future possibilities.  It needs constant moderating influences.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

1 minute ago, sburke said:

mmm count me as one of those skeptical of China's prowess.  Yeah they can create a slave factory to make iPhones but they also build stuff like this....  This is not an Escher drawing, that building is now horizontal.

Hey, but at least it stayed in one piece!  Here's a luxury condo in Florida that got quite a bit of attention not to long ago:

[danfrodo]

Speaking of getting back on track:

1.  anyone have any updates about how much damage from last night's terror-missile attacks?

2.  any updates on Bakhmut?  Last I hard, like 12 hours ago, UKR was reinforcing the flanks and looking to push RU back from the supply lines and had fixed a bridge, improving supply line.