How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[kraze]

Just now, Aragorn2002 said:

Perhaps those Ukrainian helis should pay a visit to the Red Square or one of Putins holiday resorts.

All in due time.

I mean in the perfect world if the West somehow decides the valid point of giving us some kinda ballistic missiles is a valid point - dropping one on $1 bln putin's palace would've been a massive psyop, considering that palace is not far and next to a Black Sea coast

[Aragorn2002]

2 minutes ago, kraze said:

All in due time.

I mean in the perfect world if the West somehow decides the valid point of giving us some kinda ballistic missiles is a valid point - dropping one on $1 bln putin's palace would've been a massive psyop, considering that palace is not far and next to a Black Sea coast

Something to look forward to...

[BletchleyGeek]

This picture sums up quite well many of the things that are wrong with this war.

Last week a VICE journalist dashed into Irpin capturing many images of randomly murdered civilians. I guess now is evident to all the magnitude of the carnage in those suburbs of Kyiv. Perhaps not an orchestrated evil like Srebrenica, but likely to be the work of the thugs on Putin's "leibstandarte" troops. Eternal shame on the perpetrators, I hope that justice finds them all.

I agree with Kraze in one thing. The most likely peace that comes out of this war will just be the end of the first round in a series. French- German enmity played out across 150 years, and six wars (counting separately the Napoleonic ones). That's a grim baseline to compare with.

I don't think democracies can do much about this, right now, other than provide the material to Ukraine that ensures the defeat of Russia as quickly as possible, and to prepare as well as possible for the next one.

Edited April 3, 2022 by BletchleyGeek

[Haiduk]

10 hours ago, dan/california said:

It is much easier to make a guided mortar round than it is to make a guided artillery round. So if Ukraine was 80% of the way to a guided 152mm round, they were 99% or maybe a 101% of the way to a guided mortar round. The U.S. also has some very nifty guided mortar rounds, and I think they would be one of the very simplest systems to train the Ukrainians up on. 

Situation is ridiculous. We have such development of 120 mm guided morar shell as far as since 2014. But... Our MoD didn't interest this all theese years. Even after 2016, when upgraded version with name Krucha has appeared, situation didn't change. So, our development bought Poland and now is producing guided 120 mm shells for own SP-mortar RAK. And we can just hone our skills in shooting acuracy with dumb ammunition. 

[CAZmaj]

1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Perhaps those Ukrainian helis should pay a visit to the Red Square or one of Putins holiday resorts.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/b-21-stealth-bomber-anddogfighter-200003

[Kraft]

English subtitles, these are the guys who ambushed the 4 BMDs with dead VDV littererd around near Gostomel. Some unreleased footage and background. The "strange idea" sounds like a nice intel gift

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kraft

[LongLeftFlank]

14 minutes ago, Kraft said:

These are the guys who ambushed the 4 BMDs with dead VDV littererd around near Gostomel.

And these guys charged toward our trenches. What were they thinking? I don't know, you can't ask them any more.... 

And the narrator says he'll (maybe) remember them 'until his next booze'.  Здоров'я, брате!

[Haiduk]

10 hours ago, keas66 said:

Seems like the more things change the more they stay the same - Was Russian going  into Ukraine with whatever the Russian equivalent of Einsatzgruppen units  to "de-nazify"  the Ukrainian Country side ?

No. No any einsattzgruppen. This is usual soldiers of regular units. Many have opinion, that most cruel are Chechens, Dagestans, Osetins. But no. Most cruel are minor nations of Russia - Buriats, Tyva and Russians from depressive regions themselves, from deep asshole villages.  Exactly units from Buriatia, Far East, and SE Syberia mostly occupied NW outskirts of Kyiv. Locals now tell the origins of their fury and hate is that they came here and seen that "oppressed by nationalists" live much better than in their "raised-up Russia". That even our villages have paved roads and lightening, that our houses clear, inhabitants have hausehold appliances, electronic, much better clothes.

One woman told, Russian soldier, which lived in their house, said " I will come piss to yard". She cried to him "Damn! For why you crap my yard if here is a toilet in the house!" Then Russian in angry hit the table with a fist and became swear that "you damned "khokhols" fattening here! We will burn this all to the f...k!" This is just orc horde. New barbarians.  

But on other hand Russian FSB had "shot-out lists", composed by local 5th column. Main targets - rtired ATO soldiers, Maidan activists, civil volunteers. Many of them missed on occupied territories. Russian also has been kidnapping local town mayors and village heads, forcing them to collaboration. In many cases they liberated them later, but for example all family of village head of Motyzhyn, Kyiv oblast icluding hук relatives, were executed - 6 victims total. 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Haiduk

[laribe]

17 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

No. No any einsattzgruppen. This is usual soldiers of regular units. Many have opinion, that most cruel are Chechens, Dagestans, Osetins. But no. Most cruel are minor Russian nations - Buriats, Tyva and Russian themselves from depressive regions, from deep asshole villages.  Exacyly units from Buriatia, Far East, and SE Syberia mostly occupied NW outskirts of Kyiv. Locals now tell the origins of their fury and hate is that they came here and seen that "oppressed by nationalists" live much better than in their "raised-up Russia". That even our villages have paved roads and lightening, that our houses clear, inhabitants have hausehold appliances, electronic, much better clothes.

One women told, Russian soldier, which lived in their house, said " I will come piss to yard". She cried to him "Damn! For why you crap my yard if here is a toilet in the house!" Then Russian in angry hit the table with a fist and became swear that "you damned "khokhols" fattening here! We will burn this all to the f...k!" This is just orc horde. New barbarians.  

This is what the PC and Woke Brigade of the West cannot grasp about Russia

[kraze]

5 minutes ago, laribe said:

This is what the PC and Woke Brigade of the West cannot grasp about Russia

It's natural for most people to comprehend someone's behavior from their own mental/cultural position.

And anything that is outside of the norm of the civilized person seems like a funny quirk - hence the genuine fascination of the western folk with russian/soviet "culture", not realizing those aren't funny quirks. Not funny at all.

Hence why it's so hard to explain to any person whose neighbors are either getting high in Amsterdam or chill in cafeterias near the Eiffel Tower - how anyone can be so genuinely evil and barbaric - it seems truly unbelievable and exaggerated.

And then you get Bucha and Mariupol.

[The Steppenwulf]

23 minutes ago, laribe said:

This is what the PC and Woke Brigade of the West cannot grasp about Russia

Tiresome and boring! Stop trolling!

[Squatter1]

6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

This is the most important point that should NEVER be in question as we discuss these things.  This is an illegal, unjustified war of choice and that means 100% of the civilian casualties in Ukraine are 100% the fault of the Russian Federation and the government under Vladimir Putin.  As such, the Russian Federation must be held accountable for all civilian deaths no matter how they occurred.  Period.

I'm an old CM player that's been lurking here for the information on this thread. 

First up: I abhor Putin's invasion and agree with the above statement. There is no justification for this kind of horrific violence, and Putin and those responsible should be held accountable. It is, as the quoted poster says: "an illegal, unjustified war of choice." No question.

But what I find quite astonishing is the myopia and hypocrisy of we in the West (I'm from UK). Substitute 'Iraq' for 'Ukraine' and 'US/UK' for 'Russia' in the paragraph above and surely it is just as true? Yet I have a feeling that most/many on this forum would find it difficult to accept that and would disagree.

And therein lies one of the great issues facing our world: when 'we' do it, it's right. When others do it, it's wrong. 

May I also say that the dehumanisation of Russian rank-and-file soldiers ('beasts', 'orcs', 'savages', etc) is terrifying, and is the language of genocide - simply other ways of saying 'Untermenschen'. Yes some (perhaps many for all I know) Russian soldiers have committed war crimes and deserve everything coming to them. But the majority of the poor, ill-educated, indoctrinated, scared and confused conscripts who would rather be anywhere else? Are they also 'subhumans'? 

Unpopular opinion: many posters on here need to check themselves and the language they are using, lest we all be dragged into the same moral sewer as Putin and those responsible for war crimes in Ukraine. 

[Aragorn2002]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

No. No any einsattzgruppen. This is usual soldiers of regular units. Many have opinion, that most cruel are Chechens, Dagestans, Osetins. But no. Most cruel are minor nations of Russia - Buriats, Tyva and Russians from depressive regions themselves, from deep asshole villages.  Exactly units from Buriatia, Far East, and SE Syberia mostly occupied NW outskirts of Kyiv. Locals now tell the origins of their fury and hate is that they came here and seen that "oppressed by nationalists" live much better than in their "raised-up Russia". That even our villages have paved roads and lightening, that our houses clear, inhabitants have hausehold appliances, electronic, much better clothes.

One women told, Russian soldier, which lived in their house, said " I will come piss to yard". She cried to him "Damn! For why you crap my yard if here is a toilet in the house!" Then Russian in angry hit the table with a fist and became swear that "you damned "khokhols" fattening here! We will burn this all to the f...k!" This is just orc horde. New barbarians.  

But on other hand Russian FSB had "shot-out lists", composed by local 5th column. Main targets - rtired ATO soldiers, Maidan activists, civil volunteers. Many of them missed on occupied territories. Russian also has been kidnapping local town mayors and village heads, forcing them to collaboration. In many cases they liberated them later, but for example all family of village head of Motyzhyn, Kyiv oblast icluding hук relatives, were executed - 6 victims total. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706

[Aragorn2002]

31 minutes ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Tiresome and boring! Stop trolling!

Can't we just leave the angry comments by Ukrainians about the war crimes for what they are? Personally I can perfectly understand their fury and I don't feel the urge to condemn their justified anger and sometimes unjustified hate. Calling them trolls is rather silly.

[DesertFox]

More deliberate killing of civilians by those bastards. In one of the apartments, the #Russian invaders set up a HQ with two rooms: the first one was a torture chamber, in the second, civilians were shot in the back of the head while tied up.

Graphic!

 

 

 

[DesertFox]

 

 

[The Steppenwulf]

38 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Can't we just leave the angry comments by Ukrainians about the war crimes for what they are? 

This comment...

This is what the PC and Woke Brigade of the West cannot grasp about Russia

...has absolutely nothing to do with Ukrainians being angry about Russian war crimes!

I KNOW exactly what it represents, and it has no place in this thread and that's why I'm calling it for what it is.

That's whether you, or anyone else likes it or not... it is trolling! 

Now I joined this thread after the first week of the war to read others views about the conflict, not to read about this sort of nonsense. Quite frankly, there's nothing that I am going to learn from this sort of socio-political diatribe, but there is a lot that I can learn about the military conflict. But these particular comments have no place here and are irrelevant to the topic. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by The Steppenwulf

[ASL Veteran]

 

[The Steppenwulf]

8 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

 

 

Wow you can run, but you cannot hide!

[DesertFox]

 

 

[DesertFox]

 

 

[billbindc]

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Nor to anybody who has seen them.  Shelling victims also don't tend to bind their own hands before getting hit.  Which obviously means they were murdered up close and personal by Russians of some sort (Army, OMON, Chechens, we don't know).

The mass graves are where the investigations are needed.  From a criminal standpoint there is a need to know what happened.

Steve

 

An interesting outcome to the virtual certainty that war crimes were committed is that what hesitation there was to rearming the Ukrainians for the next phase is gone. The limits on jets will continue probably (as a demonstration of restraint) but it's going to be anything goes on tanks, AD, etc. The language it's being discussed in has already changed appreciably. 

[DesertFox]

 

 

[Kraft]

53 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

I can't even imagine the terrifying helplessness and horror one would feel being dragged into that damp basement.

These crimes are also evidence to the fact that this is not the work of individuals but rather whole units participating or standing by.

[DesertFox]

17 minutes ago, Kraft said:

These crimes are also evidence to the fact that this is not the work of individuals but rather whole units participating or standing by.

Yep, those are not isolated cases. I fear once we see liberated areas around Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkov we will see pretty much the same.