John Kettler Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: There are many German WW2 sources saying Russians are stubborn and keep making the same mistakes over and over. For example in the Tiger crew manual. I used to think it was just propaganda. Couldn't delete this part. Edited March 26, 2022 by John Kettler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: There are many German WW2 sources saying Russians are stubborn and keep making the same mistakes over and over. For example in the Tiger crew manual. I used to think it was just propaganda. Couldn't delete this part. Edited March 26, 2022 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, sburke said: so what you are saying is we are effectively making war obsolete? Instead of hitting an SLOC let's just decapitate the leadership. Facial recognition, bug size UAV... zap They already have a wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterbots But no war won’t be obsolete, it is the one thing we do extremely well and have found more creative ways to prosecute than any other creature on earth. My thinking is that we had better find aliens soon so we can take out our monkey war lust on them and not wipe each other out. I used to think this was a distant issue but as of late I keep looking up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Guy Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 After reading this religiously, I am always impressed with the level of knowledge and access to detail in this forum. I am again 15 pages behind so hope I am not regurgitating the same discussion. This war though has caught me off guard with how bad the Russians are performing. I did not think they were up to the standard of the US military but . . . I wrote my Masters Thesis on the Soviet army in Afghanistan and did see evidence of a change in tactics and improvements in performance over the 10 years as they implemented needed reforms, especially if you compare their performance in the first years of the war against their performance during the Apr 1985-86 offensives with their enhancement of CI/Air mobile units etc.. My mistake was to assume that improvement is continuous and that the Russian force today was much better trained than in the 1980s based upon the lessons of the past. What I see though are the same problems; relying upon an untrained conscript NCO corp, fighting a guerrilla war with no real interior lines, and allowing the enemy to attack supply lines such that eventually 35% of all combat power was devoted to securing those supply lines. The Soviets always fell back upon increased intensity of firepower to compensate – exactly what you are seeing in Ukraine. “It was a tactical fight that demanded tactical flexibility [and] the Soviets had to reinvent tactics in the middle of the conflict’ [Lester Grau]. They don’t even have a sympathetic puppet regime to absorb much of the casualties. There is a good article in the Atlantic with an interview of a foreign volunteer which paints much the same picture. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/american-volunteer-foreign-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/627604/ I see there being a need to adjust CM to take into account a nations model of operations where a top down model should be penalized if C3 is not rigidly maintained way more severely than one that relies upon a professional NCO corp (most Western armies, Germany 1939-43 vs Soviet/Russian/Arab forces). The Soviets/Russians seem to be paralyzed when C3 is broken and they wander in the woods with disastrous consequences. Another book that I really enjoyed was 'Armies of Sand (Kenneth Pollack) that goes over the same type of analysis and comes to very similar conclusions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: There are many German WW2 sources saying Russians are stubborn and keep making the same mistakes over and over. For example in the Tiger crew manual. I used to think it was just propaganda. Couldn't delete the quote. Edited March 26, 2022 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, akd said: @Haiduk, is this just ru.wikipedia hijinx or something? Dmitry Bulgakov Acting Defense Minister since March 14, 2022. Oh, nevermind. Seems Mr. Shoigu maybe had a little “heart attack,” so I guess Bulgakov is now Defense Minister. Edited March 25, 2022 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, John Kettler said: Bulletpoint, Let me give you a Soviet perspective on initiative, which is doubtless what you're seeing in this war. @John Kettler, you just triple posted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Just now, akd said: Oh, nevermind. Seems Mr. Shoigu had a little “heart attack,” so I guess Bulgakov is now Acting Defense Minister. Is that a 9mm heart attack? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Captain Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) This is very graphic but very relevant. I have to say the rescue guys are true soldiers and absolute heroes. Seriously, FU Russia. Edited March 25, 2022 by Phantom Captain 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 (edited) Much of the focus is on the tactical stuff. When the US, NATO or Western powers conduct large military operation there is a Theater Commander or some sort of equivalent who is in direct charge. Many commented including those with past military experience and had contacts that they could not name the Russian Theater Commander. What they saw was 3 separate areas of operations doing their own thing and competing for scarce supplies and resources. Neither were coordinating with the Air Force which seemed to be off doing it own thing. A Western army with a Theater commander would be coordinating all 3 armies as well as coordinating with air operations. He would also be coordinating supplies as well as higher level assets like artillery, EW assets, ADA, strategic recon-both air and ground and naval forces that may be taking place as well as space and other assets. The goal would be to reinforce success and insure synchronization and synergy between land, air and sea as well as between all fronts. The Russians are doing none of the above, fighting as a rabble. So really can any real lessons regarding whether the tank is dead, the drone is omnipotent and the future lies with UVGs that aren't even in service be drawn? Edited March 25, 2022 by db_zero 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Is that a 9mm heart attack? He was referred to earlier today as being involved in discussions with Armenia re Azerbeijan this afternoon, which would seem to imply that he's still in post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Just flipped on the news and it’s reported the Ukrainians now have more tanks and IFVs then the Russians do in Ukraine as they have captured and are re-using abandoned Russian tanks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, db_zero said: Much of the focus is on the tactical stuff. When the US, NATO or Western powers conduct large military operation there is a Theater Commander or some sort of equivalent who is in direct charge. Many commented including those with past military experience and had contacts that they could not name the Russian Theater Commander. What they saw was 3 separate areas of operations doing their own thing and competing for scarce supplies and resources. Neither were coordinating with the Air Force which seemed to be off doing it own thing. A Western army with a Theater commander would be coordinating all 3 armies as well as coordinating with air operations. He would also be coordinating supplies as well as higher level assets like artillery, EW assets, ADA, strategic recon-both air and ground and naval forces that may be taking place as well as space and other assets. The goal would be to reinforce success and insure synchronization and synergy between land, air and sea as well as between all fronts. The Russians are doing none of the above, fighting as a rabble. So really can any real lessons regarding whether the tank is dead, the drone is omnipotent and the future lies with UVGs that aren't even in service be drawn? A regime like Putin's literally cannot appoint a theater commander because that commander might decide that the best thing he could do for the Russian people is make himself Czar instead of the current incompetent in that position. This is at least triply true for an operation/war being conducted so close to Moscow. It is only ~750 km by road from Kharkiv to Moscow. One long days drive. If the Russian army turned around and decided to change the regime that put them in this mess there wouldn't be time for Putin to move a lot of forces around to oppose them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Well you are losing me there. So with modern MALE systems one can literally sit within an friendly AD bubble and strike an opponents rear areas. Eventually someone is going to mount a Switchblade onto a Class 2 UAV so now you have an airborne system carrying another system that together have an 80km range which means they can hit SLOC entry points in the theatre. Then someone is going to create a self-loitering system with smart DPICM and hit strategic targets like a ship or port…oh wait. S’ok though we got AA Guns. Where am i loosing you? I think the distinction between munitions and carrier systems is quite warranted as they have quite different characteristics in dealing with them. Since even the US army considers the Switchblade a munition rather than a drone i dont see myself beeing way off on this either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, holoween said: Where am i loosing you? I think the distinction between munitions and carrier systems is quite warranted as they have quite different characteristics in dealing with them. Since even the US army considers the Switchblade a munition rather than a drone i dont see myself beeing way off on this either. Well this was not a conversation about the carrier vs munition as I understood it. It was about the rising presence of unmanned systems on the modern battlefield and the overall effect that may have on modern warfare. You seem to be narrowing it down to carriers and munitions; however, it really much more than that. ISR, comms and eventually resupply, medivac and shield functions are going to follow. But hey whatever floats the boat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machor Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 10 hours ago, White2Golf said: My very first impression of the Russian VDV guys we did a few patrols with in Bosnia was this.... Their NCO's were very "un-NCO" like. Would you care to elaborate? I am asking because there was a 'very active' member of the forum several years ago who was a former Russian VDV NCO, and his political views aside, he seemed to know his stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 51 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Is that a 9mm heart attack? Heart attack in the back of his head, yup . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 52 minutes ago, akd said: Oh, nevermind. Seems Mr. Shoigu maybe had a little “heart attack,” so I guess Bulgakov is now Defense Minister. heh heh I think he needs to be added to the list 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, sburke said: heh heh I think he needs to be added to the list we’ll see. All sketchy rumors at this point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machor Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 6 hours ago, sross112 said: So when we are looking at the UGV/UAV game won't the best target be the control centers? How do you see the centers? I posted about the Ukrainian TB2s earlier in the thread: They are controlled from mobile command centers with a range up to 300 km. The drones fly autonomously to their mission area and back, meaning the centers need to transmit only during the mission. Thus, assuming you could locate the center via transmissions, you would need to hit it with a loitering air strike or a ballistic missile. The former is not feasible for Russians because they haven't done DEAD; the latter would need to happen in a short OODA loop, and then Ukrainian air defenses have been adept at shooting down ballistic missiles as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The_Capt said: @John Kettler, you just triple posted. The_Capt, Am well aware and am trying to fix. On my end it looked as though nothing happened at all, so I tried again and again. Luckily, I got here in time to eliminate my part of the posts, but could do nothing about the quote. Regards, John Kettler Edited March 26, 2022 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 34 minutes ago, dan/california said: A regime like Putin's literally cannot appoint a theater commander because that commander might decide that the best thing he could do for the Russian people is make himself Czar instead of the current incompetent in that position. This is at least triply true for an operation/war being conducted so close to Moscow. It is only ~750 km by road from Kharkiv to Moscow. One long days drive. If the Russian army turned around and decided to change the regime that put them in this mess there wouldn't be time for Putin to move a lot of forces around to oppose them. I don’t agree. Stalin appointed what amounted to Theater commanders. You just have to have the proper controls in place. Ask yourself this. Had Russian ran the operation properly with a good and efficient command structure the results could very well be different, success would have come quickly and the discussion would likely be different. People might very well be saying the Russians have a dangerous armored force and the West needs more tanks… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 1 hour ago, The_Capt said: They already have a wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterbots But no war won’t be obsolete, it is the one thing we do extremely well and have found more creative ways to prosecute than any other creature on earth. My thinking is that we had better find aliens soon so we can take out our monkey war lust on them and not wipe each other out. I used to think this was a distant issue but as of late I keep looking up. Meh Frank Herbert had them in Dune back in the 60's, but superior training allows Paul to save the Shadout Mapes. That is the answer to drones - bene Gesserit training. or sumfink 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machor Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 Intel leak: Ukraine will not run out of TB2s. Is it a system? Is it a munition? It's both. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machor Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 The Face of War: Russian POWs in Kharkiv: Dead civilians in Mariupol: https://twitter.com/antiputler_news/status/1507416262661521418?cxt=HHwWlICyidbGtespAAAA 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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