CM Cold War - Beta AAR - Soviet Thread - Glorious Soviet Victory at Small German Town 1980

[The_Capt]

17 minutes ago, IMHO said:

@The_Capt, @Pete Wenman, is the map itself - without the OOB - available anywhere? I mean CM readable format.

Short answer is no but we can talk after release....

[IMHO]

1 minute ago, The_Capt said:

Short answer is no but we can talk after release....

OIC. No worries - it's just more convenient to follow AAR being able to check lines of fire. We'll keep our fingers crossed for the Easter

[The_Capt]

So for those wondering, I am planning an update soon.  I am waiting on turn 10 and then can do a 8-10 summary.  Hopefully tomorrow or next day latest.

Here is a teaser:

T64 can take a hit.

[MikeyD]

Note the text says 'HIT', it doesn't say 'Penetration'. Welcome to the world of Cold War. 

[Baneman]

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

Note the text says 'HIT', it doesn't say 'Penetration'.  

Always leaves you with a sinking feeling of impending doom in PBEM 

[The_MonkeyKing]

What is a "superstructure" on the front hull? Drivers hatch?

[LastLeigh]

Hm. Probably, or it could be referring to the front plate itself.

[The_Capt]

1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

What is a "superstructure" on the front hull? Drivers hatch?

Steel not meat...so we are good.

[LastLeigh]

1 hour ago, The_Capt said:

Steel not meat...so we are good.

I mean, it's nice of the Americans to ring the tank crew's bell to let them know it's time for lunch.

[The_Capt]

March to Glorious Victory Post # 5 - The Bitter Tonic of Sacrifice (Turn 8 - 11)

  So the theme of todays post is to validate The_Capt's rule #5 - never play by their rules, play by your own.  So in this episode we are building to a decisive moment one way or the other.  I posted the kill shot on the M150 for turn 8 previously, beyond that not much to report as I continue to move into a broad tree line position of Eyes.

Turn 9 we score another M150 kill as my tanks pull onto the shoulders on either side.  That is an AT3 and sabot round...it was the AT 3 that does the job.

You can get a good sense of the setup laydown on this shot of the kill.   I have infantry in the center and the two T64 pls on either shoulder.  The setup here is for the impending arrival of The Boys

So the good news is that is a Tank Coy (10 tanks strong) but the not so good news is that they are T62s.  The T62 can still do the job and can kill an M60 from the front pretty well, problem is that they are a little blind.  So I am re-thinking my approach to Kill Bil and Teeth.

Turn 10 is when my original thinking is validate.  If I stay in this tree line and play Bils game he will pick me off from that ridge, mainly because the optics on the US tanks are simply better.

Ok, this first one actually hurt the worst.  There was a Coy HQ and a FO in that BMP.

And the T64s are tough but not invincible, this one on my right.

And on my left another T64 (this one of those frustrating TAC AI shenanigans) and another BMP.  So the tree line and play peekaboo is not going to work, particularly with T62s...we move or die. 

Turn 11 sees no further losses but those T64s do take some bounces as the M60s on the hill have them well dialed in but by the end of Turn 11 we are in position.

So, dear reader, here we are at the edge of eternity.  I have two infantry platoons dismounted because I really do not want them to die inside their vehicles.  They are pushing up a bit towards the town.  I have a tank coy in a good position to push out and I still have a pretty good force on the shoulders.  Hmm...so what should the plan be?  Seriously...discuss.  

Right now, I am thinking about not swinging to the left and up but going straight through the town and up.  The primary issue is that those T62s are deadly up close (1000m or less) but I have to get them there and all that open ground to my left is not looking good.  There is probably at least a US tank Pl on that ridge to the left and another covering from the right both sweeping that open field.  If I can get into those wood beyond the town, we will have the knife fight and I will be in a better position to overwhelm.  The other option is to go right, lotta dead ground there.

So here is a shot of the map from the (included) scenario editor:

Very interested to hear from the audience cause I really have not made my mind up on this one.

[JM Stuff]

12 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

March to Glorious Victory Post # 5 - The Bitter Tonic of Sacrifice (Turn 8 - 11)

  So the theme of todays post is to validate The_Capt's rule #5 - never play by their rules, play by your own.  So in this episode we are building to a decisive moment one way or the other.  I posted the kill shot on the M150 for turn 8 previously, beyond that not much to report as I continue to move into a broad tree line position of Eyes.

Turn 9 we score another M150 kill as my tanks pull onto the shoulders on either side.  That is an AT3 and sabot round...it was the AT 3 that does the job.

You can get a good sense of the setup laydown on this shot of the kill.   I have infantry in the center and the two T64 pls on either shoulder.  The setup here is for the impending arrival of The Boys

So the good news is that is a Tank Coy (10 tanks strong) but the not so good news is that they are T62s.  The T62 can still do the job and can kill an M60 from the front pretty well, problem is that they are a little blind.  So I am re-thinking my approach to Kill Bil and Teeth.

Turn 10 is when my original thinking is validate.  If I stay in this tree line and play Bils game he will pick me off from that ridge, mainly because the optics on the US tanks are simply better.

Ok, this first one actually hurt the worst.  There was a Coy HQ and a FO in that BMP.

And the T64s are tough but not invincible, this one on my right.

And on my left another T64 (this one of those frustrating TAC AI shenanigans) and another BMP.  So the tree line and play peekaboo is not going to work, particularly with T62s...we move or die. 

Turn 11 sees no further losses but those T64s do take some bounces as the M60s on the hill have them well dialed in but by the end of Turn 11 we are in position.

So, dear reader, here we are at the edge of eternity.  I have two infantry platoons dismounted because I really do not want them to die inside their vehicles.  They are pushing up a bit towards the town.  I have a tank coy in a good position to push out and I still have a pretty good force on the shoulders.  Hmm...so what should the plan be?  Seriously...discuss.  

Right now, I am thinking about not swinging to the left and up but going straight through the town and up.  The primary issue is that those T62s are deadly up close (1000m or less) but I have to get them there and all that open ground to my left is not looking good.  There is probably at least a US tank Pl on that ridge to the left and another covering from the right both sweeping that open field.  If I can get into those wood beyond the town, we will have the knife fight and I will be in a better position to overwhelm.  The other option is to go right, lotta dead ground there.

So here is a shot of the map from the (included) scenario editor:

Very interested to hear from the audience cause I really have not made my mind up on this one.

Very nice to follow yours briefing @The_Capt imagine...!!  that we can have a system in CM with layers system  in superposition to draw signs, infos, positions... to show a presentation...directly on the spot from the battlefield ...this cost you lot of time to draw yourself all save it in a jpg format eventual transform make some corrections cutting shortly your game or making it in pause than sending to all ! hungry reader on the forum page, to do it again and again...!

JM

 

[The_MonkeyKing]

@The_Capt It sounds like you were surprised by the T62s? Were you expecting T64s?

I would rush forward with the T-62 mass to get to close range cluster ****. When you move on mass Bill will get some killed but not even close to all of them. Addition targets can be provided with the BMPs.

While Bill is busy shooting up the mass I would shoot and scoot with the T-64s supported by BMP ATGMs. (put the BMPs to worse positions than T-64s so they get spotted before T-64s)

Bills tanks would be easy spots while they are firing. T-62s would do the dying, while T-64s would do the killing.

[The_Capt]

52 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

@The_Capt It sounds like you were surprised by the T62s? Were you expecting T64s?

Not so much surprised as I basically forgot.  In the old folks home that is the deep Beta, seriously a lot of names that are 20 years old on the forum, Bil was like that dear old crone always pining about the "Beta AAR".  We politely nod and smile at him, while reminding that he should put his teeth in the glass.  So he has been pestering on this since freakin Jan whilst we were also up to our necks in content design and development, along with TO&E support and a dozen other things ("ya Capt, cry me a river").  

Anyway, I humored the old guy until a scenario landed on my lap and here we are.  So, I was thinking T64s, or maybe even 80s (which in hindsight makes no sense for the timestamp) but T62s are not a deal breaker.  I have had them destroy A3s at 1500ms, they are just a bit trickier to manage.

Your plan is similar to my thinking but I am weight the merits of driving into those woods along #2.  

Edited March 3, 2021 by The_Capt

[The_MonkeyKing]

5 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Your plan is similar to my thinking but I am weight the merits of driving into those woods along #2.  

Tanks don't like it in woods. It scares them.

[The_Capt]

3 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Tanks don't like it in woods. It scares them.

True for Bil as it is for me.  That, and I know he really does not have infantry to speak of.

[Hapless]

Obviously hard to judge from the screens and the map but... the end of Route 2 looks like a good position.

From there you are blocking Bil moving directly to the objective and he will have to come into the woods to get you on your terms (a stronger option if you could bring the infantry along, but that ship may have sailed). As a bonus, your tanks will be concealed from air and artillery observation.

If Bil tries to bypass the wood on either side to get to the objective, then you should be able to hit him with flanking fire as well as fire from the Eyes on your valley side.

It's... not very dramatic, it's objective rather than force focused, a man in a scary hat may ask "Why have you lost your forward momentum, Comrade?" and (more disturbingly) it basically involves seizing a position and saying "What're you gonna do now?" to Bil Hardenberger... but, ground depending, I think he's only got bad options if you're in those woods.

Whatever you choose, you are currently on the wrong side of the valley and should rectify that as soon as possible

Edited March 3, 2021 by Hapless

[The_Capt]

10 minutes ago, Hapless said:

From there you are blocking Bil moving directly to the objective and he will have to come into the woods to get you on your terms (a stronger option if you could bring the infantry along, but that ship may have sailed). As a bonus, your tanks will be concealed from air and artillery observation.

Such a delicious tactical dilemma, wish it was someone else's.  Well infantry are not off the board, the two dismounted platoons are encroaching and I still have one mounted.  Getting them all into and past that village is a workable plan.  I like the center push but I am not entirely onside with switching to the defence once we are there.  Bil also has DPICM, which stings like iodine so I would rather keep going once we get to the other side.  Once I am up in those hills Bil is on his back feet and has to react.  I can keep scouts to secure the points of the objective but will be better placed to hit him if I can get up there with him. 

Either way, you are correct...wrong side of the valley indeed.  

[purpheart23]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Very interested to hear from the audience cause I really have not made my mind up on this one.

#3 Close the distance using the dead ground with overwatch, ez pz. How you break down the assault force vs. your over watch or base is entirely up to you, I would assume the T-64's and BMP's for cover and the T-62's to rush. Whichever you choose best of luck with it.

[Baneman]

It's hard to be certain of the lay of the land, but personally, I think I would go with #3 - IF the ground to be covered is largely protected from Bil's right.

After all, the advantage of attacking is that you can put all/most of your force in one place - any of Bil's units that don't have LoS to the action area are wasted assets until he can move them. 

But it kinda depends on the cover he has over the #3 route - 5-10 seconds exposure on the move is ok, more, probably not.

Either way, any large armoured movement is going to attract attention and that could leave your infantry relatively unmolested as they invest the village so I wouldn't wait too long.

Then again, I'm famously useless at Modern warfare, so there is that. 

[The_Capt]

2 minutes ago, Baneman said:

Then again, I'm famously useless at Modern warfare, so there is that

So unless you are talking about pre-War of 1812, it is all pretty much "modern" warfare.  The components remain the same even if the speed and distance changes.  The problem to my front would be recognizable to Grant or Lee as fundamental: how to get my mass to a better position than my opponent without getting it destroyed in the process?  We have been doing position-based warfare for a long time, even if we change the name now and again.

Now in the next 10-20 years this will likely change.  How to create mass without mass, or mass-less warfare?  Fighting at null distance and omnidirectional warfare, stuff like that.

Now I am leaning towards a 2.5 option.... 

[MikeyD]

Whenever I see a map with a forward slope you have to descend with the enemy overlooking you I just groan.

[Lethaface]

If the goal is to close the distance as soon as possible, I'd go for the quickest route to move to the other side - all moving at the same time as much as possible.

Dead ground sounds nice but from the screenshots it seems you still need to cross the open before reaching there? If it's just a short bit to get in the dead ground  and it allows to move your whole force forward without the chance to get plinked, I guess that is the best option.

But it doesnt seem like that to me from the screens. Some smaller patches of dead ground can/will also temporary divide your force into the part which is covered by dead ground and the part which isn't, allowing Bil to focus these while limiting your returnfire options. 

 

[LastLeigh]

I advocate running it down center, in true Russian fashion. Dead ground is nice, but better yet is throwing your mass as tightly as possible against a section of his line, and then exploiting your breakthrough. It'd be even better if you could throw your artillery at him just before you smash him with your mechanized attack.

[Holien]

Out of interest the loss of the FO  and Co HQ, does that mean no one else can call in the Arty?

That is a big package to put in one BMP?

Was that by choice?

Just waiting to see how Arty plays out in this game.

As for your choices I guess smoke does not help you and is of no use in hiding your approach?

[The_Capt]

24 minutes ago, Holien said:

Out of interest the loss of the FO  and Co HQ, does that mean no one else can call in the Arty?

No, I have two other FO teams.  They came together, I was going to dismount as soon as they made that forward tree-line...which they did not make it to.