Your suggestions for the game manual

[Maus]

A good index...... please!

[David Stone]

I second the request for an in-depth index... Especially good for the newbies!

[Goanna]

Damn, should have got up earlier. All my suggestions are already added. I would like to support Beman's and Howard Jones' suggestions.

The one thing that so impresses me about this game is how easy it was to learn how to work everything with little or no guidance, and how closely it brings to the computer those Avalon Hill games I grew up playing that took ages to play because they were so complicated. BTS has used the computer in the exact way I wish I could have thought of first.

So basically, I like whatever designers notes and info they want to throw in as cheaply as they can. PDFs on the CD are great for me.

------------------

desert rat wannabe

[Hundminen]

MAPS!

I don't think anyone mentioned maps should be included in or with the manual. I mean what kind of commanders went into battle without a decent map. Sure these demo scenarios are tiny, but from what I have read here, the full game will cover considerable areas with linked battles.

The maps should be detailed to show topographical features such as terrain (cover), elevation (contour lines?), buildings, rivers, crossings, etc.

I guess maps become even more important if the battles are all connected, yet only a limited amount of terrain is visible at a time (the way it should be). They might assist in deployment and planning.

They don't have to be anything fancy - black and white line drawings is fine.

Besides, maps make good reading material for the can (or between our late night PBEM sessions).

Hundminen

[Guest L Tankersley]

It seems like this is something I saw mentioned but a quick skim above didn't spot it, so here goes:

A brief summary of the units/vehicles in the game. This can be _quite_ brief (1-2 sentences each) but I think it would be valuable to many players. For vehicles, this would mention available dates, rarity, intended role, armament/armor, and maybe a note or two on how it was used/interesting characteristics. Infantry could probably be lumped together a bit, but for example I think you should at least address the distinctions between Volksgrenadiers, Panzergrenadiers (motorized and mechanized), SMG units, and so on. Maybe not down to the squad level, but at platoon/company (OB purchase) level you could probably summarize the general qualities of the unit in a few sentences.

[Donan]

Gads! I second a couple of suggestions that I usually always wish for: bibliography and maps..for sure (with a little historical note for perspective Of course, there are several other notable requests

[Eridani]

My Favoright part of every Game Manual is the technical section in back where the specs of all the different units are given... I know with the 50-100+ units in CM this might be hard, but it'd still be cool to see

-EridanMan

[Bullethead]

Moon said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> do you guys need (want) a quick start section/tutorial scenario?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, simply because it seems to me it's impossible to have a true tutorial because the AI and combat results are different every time you play the scenario. Thus, there'd have to be some major coding required to make something repeatable enough to be a tutorial. I'd rather BTS not waste time on this crap .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>would you like to see a step-by-step "how to make a map" section?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most definitely. Not only for scenarios per se, but because Fionn's CMMC idea will require a LOT of good map making .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>how much value has a historical overview over CM's time period for you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a game manual? ZERO!! Just put a short bibliography or recommended reading section at the end and save all the pages for discussing game mechanics.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>would you like descriptions of the scenarios and operations provided on the CD to be printed in the manual?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a couple of sentences at most. Give us something so we know the basic idea when we want to fight a specific type of battle, but not so much as to spoil the surprises.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>do you want/need a tactical hints section?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for true HINTS I think the URLs of this board, CMHQ, etc., would be all that's needed in this regard. But there should probably be a page or 2 on the very simplest forms of basic tactics, for the unwashed masses. You know, keep your units in command, use overwatch, how to do a single envelopment. No more.

Specific other things:

1. Complete list of all hotkeys, together with a brief explanation (remember how nobody understood the elevation angle of the camera?)

2. Brief description of how the AI does things like select targets in mid-turn, so when folks see this happening they'll know why.

3. Brief description of all the various factors that go into firing accuracy for same reason.

4. Brief description of everything that goes into morale state for the same reason.

5. A GOOD INDEX!!!!!!!

As far as general comments, I would also like to see ZERO photos from real life. Such "atmospheric" things only rob space and cost money while telling you nothing about how to get the game working or play it better. Only use screenshots from the game, and only when they illustrate points in the text. Also, print it in ink that won't smear when you hit it with a highlighter .

-Bullethead

[This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 12-31-99).]

[guachi]

Answers to commonly asked questions so they don't keep getting asked over and over and over and over.

Designer notes

Thorough description of all the functions in the game. Possibly done through short tutorials.

Discussion of some of the more esoteric things. Command delay, hull down status, Command radius, LOS, grazing fire, etc.

Thorough description of the all the things displayed on the status bar at the bottom of the screen.

Bibliography even if it is a short one

Brief unit description, especially the obscure ones. Escort company? Sturmcompanie? I had never heard of these and had to ask what they were. There are so many unit types in the game it is easy to get confused. Remember the discussion about the function of infantry guns?

Artillery - This has apparently changed enough that those of us with the beta demo will need some help.

Short tactical tips - Remember all the discussion about the Hellcats? And the current discussion about StuGs? On board usage of mortars. Using suppressive fire. Conducting a close assault. Good use of artillery. Using man-portable AT weapons (and avoiding them). Effective set-up of AT guns. Close coordination of infantry a armor. Keeping units in command. Turretless vs. turreted. Open topped vs. close topped. Effective terrain usage.

These don't have to be long. Just a few sentences to point us in the right direction.

Jason

[Lindan]

<table> <tr><td bgcolor=#648277><font color=#e7e9de size="-1"><div align="center" valign=center>Tutorial

</div></font></td>

<td bgcolor=#e7e9de><font color=black>

I think a tutorial could be made by including

some screenshots during and at the end of the "give orders" -phase in combination with some commented movie-files to show the results of the given orders. Would be a nice feature for players new to the genre. (and a nice chance for the designers to produce themselves. Imagine a movie-file with the background voice of Steve "..and again the BRILLIANT tactics of tank commander STEVE show how to utterly wreck the enemy's left flank by giving -hunt- orders to the units behind this hill...*eg*"

<hr>

oh, and plz include a nice calendar for 2000 with pin-ups posing on Tigers, Panthers and such. (or perhaps Linda Evangelista sprawled on a Jagdtiger..please!)

</font>

</td>

</tr>

</table>

[Mystiverse]

i think that it is vital to have info aimed at the less informed.i play war games with a friend online but hes always talking about how he is not familiar with all the units involved with ww2.some quick run down on various units and how they are effective alone and in mixed groups would be good.i dont think pictures are nessesary but maybe a good running demo of the game engine and specific weapons in action could fit the bill.

[von shrad]

I want very complex rules complicated more by unusual and rare exceptions.Few examples,a poor index,lots of errata included in future boxed sets only for sale,contradicting rules and many changes in an annual newsletter that is offered for sale, not for free. OOps wrong game.

[Guest MantaRay]

What I would like to see is the "designers notes" and thoughts on why they did things the way they did. I know it wont get in, but it would be nice to see the designers theroies.

Also I would like to see a mission or two from the eyes of the developers. Not a tutorial mission either, but an indepth log of why they set up different ways. Maybe even some illustrations too.

Ray

------------------

[billcarey]

To go with the "seat of the pants" mentality rather than the mathematical precise command style, I would like to see unit descriptions written as grunts opinions. Something like (for the StuG)

"Well, they ain't much out in the open, and you can flank the hell out of them, but if a StuG is waiting for you - watch out. Its gun can hammer a sherman from pretty good distance, and the things are tough to spot when they have some cover to work with."

If people want the specific info on each unit they can hit enter in the game and see it. I'd just like a quick this unit does this and is good at that and has this really bad design flaw (i.e. no armor and open topped)

- Bill

[dalem]

Moon-

Well, most of the guys have covered most of the specifics, so let me hit the 'big picture' for manuals. I've bought tons of games and tons of PC games over the last 20 years, and *nothing* makes me less likely to buy 'the next installment' than a crappy manual. My imagination can fill in for abstracted graphics or abstracted game mechanics, but I *cannot* fill in for a lousy manual

Talonsoft is an example of this: Battle of Antietem - decent manual- clear, readable, good examples of gameplay/options. But East Front? Simply unplayable. Worst manual I'd ever seen. No more Talonsoft for Dale.

Even if you have to do the sneaky standard of "the manual you get with the games is decent for bare-bones, but you have to spend another $30 on a Prima Strategy guide to really understand the game", that's fine with me, as long as the info is available SOMEWHERE.

-dale (manuals are VERY VERY important)

p.s. for details, I REALLY like designer notes - "we did this because of blah-blah-blah", etc.

[howardb]

Is it just me or is the Microprose manuals one of the best there is out there? I remember the manual for Across the Rhine it had the thickness of a large Tom Clancy novell.

[Doug Beman]

MP makes very good manuals in my experience (except for B17 Flying Fortress, which was sort of skimpy) It's a real shame that Across the Rhine was such a disappointing game.

DjB

[Lee]

I would like to see descriptions of the vehicles in

the game. Now, I realize that there are too many to

give a full-blown account of each. But at least some

stats and info. on the major types.

For example, for the Panzer IV have date first introduced,

general characteristics, then a short entry for each variant

in the game (or at least the major variants), with a few

stats, date introduced, number built, etc. With a line or

two giving Steve's and Charles' opinion of the vehicle's

performance in actual combat. And perhaps a

simple profile

line drawing of the most common variant of

that type of

vehicle.

Using these types of concise entries would provide an

interesting overview of what sort of vehicles the combatants

involved had fielded in the time frame of CM. It would allow

those new to WWII wargaming to get an easy feel for what

sort of armored vehicles they are goiong to have at their

disposal in various battles throughout the campaigns. And

it wouldn't take much space for such brief descriptions.

[RobVarak]

1. Bibliography/Recommended Reading Section. This can help newbies find introductory material and grogs fill in some stuff they may have missed. CM is a great learning tool, IMHO, and this would really help it in that department.

2. SHORT (obviously) equipment descriptions. Just enough so that a neophyte can familiarize himself with the general relative strengths/weaknesses of a unit.

3. Emphasis on explanation of commands and AI logic over tactics or extensive historical background. There are other sources for the latter, but only BTS knows the intricacies of the former.

Rob

[Mattias]

I started out making a list of things needed but got stuck on one of them old stumbling blocks. It is a matter of some heated debate and has been brought up before. It is however eminently relevant to this thread too.

The question is whether or not the “black box” should be opened or not. Shall the mechanics of the game be know to the player or should it be a matter of “natural” learning by trial and error?

I for one favour presenting, in the manual or on the CD, relevant parts of the data being processed behind the scene. Exactly how does LOS deteriorate through terrain, exactly what happens from the moment two tanks come within LOS of each other and to the point that one is burning?

The main reason for this is that I would to know if what I see is a bug, an oversight or a game decision.

I have no problem accepting game decisions or statistics (luck), but sometimes (in CM: rarely) something feels very, very wrong and Id like to know why.

The bottom line is really that substantiated input will be hard to produce unless the player get some sort of clue about the mechanics behind it all and it would makes those fleeting moments of, WHY!!, frustration easier to endure

M.

[This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 01-02-100).]

[Jarmo]

A basic explanation of used weapons and vechiles. I know there's a lot of 'em, but still

Not everyone knows why american riflemen are more effective than german ones, or wich is a better tank, jagdtiger or stuart, sherman or panther.

Not too thorough, just a few words about caliber, firing rate, accuracy, armor.

Maybe a chart?

[Mark IV]

A few things I haven't seen above, or want to re-emphasize:

1) Detailed list of terrain effects on unit defense and movement- scattered trees, creeks, bogs, stone walls. What effect on infantry, vehicles, what effect on incoming of various types- as someone else put it, anything required to turn common sense into quality game play. Expressed as plus or minus to the die roll would be fine, or however it actually works. Ditto for weather.

2) Detailed description of OBA and proper employment. This almost can't help being tactical notes, in a way. Some games really make a big deal out of OBA and it shouldn't be that hard. Adjusting barrages and pre-registering targets are probably not completely intuitive.

3) Detailed description of game mechanics for unusual weapons systems or vehicles (such as minesweepers and other Engineer vehicles, bridges (?), flamethrowers, etc. Too often I see detailed charts for real world capabilities of such weapons, but not instructions for how to use them in the game context. Trial and error are only possible at the expense of scenario "freshness".

4) Add my voice to pleas for a comprehensive index.

[L4Pilot]

Not mentioned til now:

PBEM explantion and instructions (and troubleshooting)

It's the onlything that was confusing to me ast all in the demo.

[PyroManiac]

What I would like to see is a listing of the ranks and rank insignia for the various armies involved.

Also, I work in the printing industry and have some suggestions. You can have the manuals printed in black and white using digital printing directly from your computer generated documents. You design it, they print it. This technology also makes printing smaller quantities less expensive. You can print them as you need them rather than making a HUGE quantity ahead of time. I am sure there are many printing companies that could do this for you.

I also like the idea of making the manual as a hole punched, ring bound book. They make smaller ring binders that fit half of an 8.5 x 11 inch page real nice. If not a ring bound book please consider a wire binding so that the book stays open where I want it.

If anyone at BTS would like to know more about the printing stuff send me an e-mail. I would be happy to tell you more.

[Eric Alkema]

I really like the idea of the ring or wire bound manual. I think that the primary function of the paper manual should be to give you something to refer to while you are playing. If the bloody thing won't stay open, that gets tricky.

Many of the excellent suggestions that have already been made don't need to be accessible while actually playing the game and could therefore appear on the CD as a PDF or whatever.

------------------

Eric