Moon Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Alright folks, you wanted some on-topic stuff, you're going to get it. While the time for suggestions for CM1 has basically run out, it's the perfect moment to voice your ideas, suggestions, thoughts and opinions about what you would like to see in the game manual coming together with the Combat Mission CD. Some previous threads and single posts have dealt with it, but this will be a nice cozy place to collect them all and see what BTS and Battlefront can make out of it. I'd like to emphasize STRONGLY, however, that while all suggestions are appreciated, not all can make it into the manual. All of us would probably like to see the penetration diagrams of all the guns versus all the vehicles printed, or in-depth descriptions of all the different tank models and infantry weapons... but it ain't gonna happen. Every page printed takes time and money, so taking something in might mean something else has to be left out - so do yourself a favour and keep it realistic, ok? And as a lead-in: the manual as it is contains all the necessary basics, of course, like explanation of orders, terrain features etc., but some of the questions could be: - do you guys need (want) a quick start section/tutorial scenario? - would you like to see a step-by-step "how to make a map" section? - how much value has a historical overview over CM's time period for you? - would you like descriptions of the scenarios and operations provided on the CD to be printed in the manual? - do you want/need a tactical hints section? And so on, you get the picture The above are just ideas that jumped to my mind, please understand that I'm not implying anything of the above might make it in. So once again, let us hear what you think should really really be in the manual. Thanks! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Most of the things you have listed would be nice, but the MOST important thing I can think of is a "how to" section, as in how to set an ambush,etc. And we all know what an ambush is obviously, but we need a *concrete* guide on how to turn commomn sense into quality gameplay. - For example, it is only because I have paid alot of attention to this board, that I know you should place your ambush markers 20 or so meters ahead of the spot you want to spring the ambush on, when using regular or green units. Many of us from the board will get these kind of finer details from the board, but we can't assume everybody who ends up buying the game will spend the same obsessive amount of time on this board that we/I do. There are plenty of other examples, like the best ways to hide and sneak, and I'm sure you can think of more examples. With a game this in depth, it takes explanation to make these tactics available to all players, thus improving reviews and sales. Just my 2 pence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Capt_Manieri Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I think there definetly needs to be a section regarding the using of the Scenario Editor. Plus, I want to a picture of Steve. (I'm not gay, I just want to see what he looks like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 First and foremost the manual should be written with an eye toward the new to wargaming player. This game will attract many "gamers" who are not "War" gamers. Folks who have played lots of action games, ect. Me...total wargamer, don't know a thing about other types of games...But those who are new to wargaming may learn the fun that WW2 gaming w/all the accuracy ect can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunnerdream Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I think the tutorial/quick start section is a must, not necesarily for experienced gamers, but for the thousands(hopefully) of grognard-wannabe's who may be slightly intimidated at first by the scope of this game. I myself have many friends who are interested in the time period involved and in wargaming in general, but who have been put off by the complexity of manuals from other games(West Front comes to mind). I REALLY want this game to succeed and spread like bubonic plague. The more the merrier! I believe, given the relative simplicity of the game/player interface and a newbie-friendly tutorial, you can attract even more customers and I can attract even more cannon fodder. The people I have played PBEM will, of course realize what a huge joke that last statement is. Gunnerdream...floating down through the clouds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I want range attenuation charts for all weapons within the game. If they will not be provided, I understand. In that case, I offer to put up on a web site range attenuation charts for armour piercing and anti personnel weapons. Email me for any information. I'll also tell you how to construct such charts yourself. It's simple. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 1st. A quick start/tutorial is vital. While the interface is pretty intuitive, it does have a small learning curve. Also imagine some reviewer trying to play the game. If there is something he can't figure out, it might color his review negatively. 2nd. It the mapmaker a seperate program, or is it in the main program? If it is in the same program, then probably important that it be in the manual. If it is a seperate program, then you might be able to save space for other stuff by making a help file document to be included on the CD. Just make sure a link to the file is created in the program group for easier (and more obvious) access. 3rd. A brief overview of the time period would be nice, just don't forget to include the references. 4th. Campaign descriptions certainly. Scenario if there is room. 5th. Tactics/hints? Eh... not priorty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 ***- would you like descriptions of the ***scenarios and operations provided on the ***CD to be printed in the manual? For me, such things as the above; an 'index' with a summary is all I would need (so I would 'know' to look at the CD for such info). Don't know if I can explain this clearly; How many men, rifles, AT weaps, Lt MGs, etc for each type of platoon/company of Infranty per 'name'. Example : US Engineer, US Recon etc, (ain't even going to try to spell some of the German types My thinking is for DYO type...If I just see 'Recon' squad when trying to add units to a map, I won't know how many men or how they are armed in order to decide which units I want to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carentan Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I've been keeping my powder dry for just this discussion thread. I'm a dedicated buff of WW2 history, but I would hardly qualify for the title of "grognard." Therefore, most of the things that I benefit from in a wargame manual are fluffier than the penetration tables section. I think a logical (albeit unordered) series of chapters would include: Issuing Orders Viewing the Battlefield Tips & Techniques (including one or two tutorials wriiten with a Fionn-esque flair ) General discussion of effective use of unit types (Infantry, Armor, AT, etc.) Scenario design (I think very thoughtful discussions of operations, creation of a scenario/op from scratch and the wonders of the DYO would make me as happy as a pig in slop) I'm sure I will think of more headers/ chapter subjects worthy of inclusion, but off the top of my head I can imagine the topics that will offer me the least, too! Those would be: Tables of any obscure nature (my college major had to be re-written without pre-calculus just so I could graduate I'm math-dumb and some days making change is a struggle ) Historical setting (IMHO, this is the single most beaten-to-death manual stuffer known to the human race. Please spare me I already have Ambrose to tell me what I'm supposed to believe Pictures of guys operating an MG42 (seen a thousand already!) OK, that's my irreverant take on manual-dom. I am dying to make some self-gratifying contribution to this game that I have been awaiting. Alas, I imagine the wisdom of the already-assembled team puts my small offering to shame. Carry on! ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I would like to see the printed manual contain just the basics of how to use the game and editor. Beyond that, I would like more in depth coverage of the game and editor provided as PDFs on the CD. I tend to loose manuals, but not CDs. It would also keep printing costs down. ------------------ --- Dan Brown dbrown@owc.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I would like a good 'basic' training section. Something that made you feel you were ready to go to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 If possible, I would like the manual to be ring-bound so it can be opened flat without pinging shut again and I would like a good index so we can find things easily. Now what should be in it? Some tutorial scenarios would be very useful. I know CM is relatively intuitive but there are layers of complexity. One tutorial could introduce some basic training (orders, movement). Others could be more “advanced training” (combined arms coordination, ambushing etc.,). Sort of like the way Descent Freespace or I-War structured their tutorials, although of course I realize there is no similarity between these games and CM. Tactical hints would definitely be useful (IMHO) also full explanations of what all those funny heart and lightning bolt thingys that appear for HQ units actually mean. I agree with Carentan wrt historical ballast although I wouldn’t rely on Ambrose for what to think about the involvement of troops other than US - maybe Keegans 5 armies in Normandy Another addition perhaps as a html file on the CD rather than in the manual would be a list of links to relevant web sites – I’ve come across very many interesting web pages by following the links provided by the contributors to this board. Best wishes to everyone for the new year. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hoerter Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I imagine this is mostly in, but I'd like a very detailed decription of the various orders. Since many of them carry a reasonable amount of subtlety special attention needs to be made clarifying there differences. For example, many people were unsure of the use of sneak, not to mention setting ambushes properly (as was mentioned above - I personally still have plenty to learn here). Granted, we played with a beta demo with limited documentation. Also of importance is the use of orders in conjunction, ie the myth of mid-turn pauses or helping units to interract with one anther. As a case in point, I have difficulty with the best course of action when making contact in wooded areas. I stick to very short moves or try to overwatch if possible, but the range is terribly short. Since these are the most fundamental way we interact with our units I just want to make sure they receive special attention. There are many manuals out there that make it to print with undocumented commands... Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizen Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Like to see in manual (if not already): 1. A guide to what units can take Victory Locations and guard prisoners and how close they need to be. 2. A guide to the hitorical rarity of vehicles and units printed. I think scenario descriptions should just be in with the scenario briefings. citizen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Most of the stuff -can go onto the CD, like penertration charts etc Are they? ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 12-30-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donan Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Well most of what I would like have already been mentioned. Contents page. Good index. Ring bound. There seems to be some argument about historical descriptions being included, but I have lot's of books on all arenas of WWII, but I would still like a brief description of what a particular battle that is being presented so I can not only get an immediate feel for what is being presented, but to know what the designer had in mind too. I really would like description of who is envolved and a OOB. I'm just echoing much of what has been said and agree with it: order descriptions, tactical hint's ...etc. As someone mentioned, CM is very intuitive, but there is alot of subtlety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scurlock Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 -Q: do you guys need (want) a quick start section/tutorial scenario? A: I learn a lot from tutorials. Many people don't use them. There loss my gain; knowledge is power. -Q: would you like to see a step-by-step "how to make a map" section? A: If it's very complex, or has features one would not intuitively expect: by all means yes. -Q: how much value has a historical overview over CM's time period for you? Not me personally but I've played may people in SP who were ignorant of the the history of the timeframe of the particular scenario we were playing. If you have the space it would be a great public service. A good map would be especialy helpful. I have comprehensive data on tank production figures. I would like to see this information available to everyone, iether in the manual or on line. Hopefully this will help people build realistic scenarios. It's frustrating for allied players to constantly have to deal with powerfull but very rare German equipment. If you want it just send me an E-mail, I'll send it. -Q: would you like descriptions of the scenarios and operations provided on the CD to be printed in the manual? A: The in-game descriptions should be sufficient. -Q: do you want/need a tactical hints section? A: A suspect it will eleviate a lot of frustration for many. A small investment in making the game more enjoyable, and more popular. Here's a plausible and I'm sure incomlete outline. I'm taking this right from a manual I found very helpful (why reinvent the wheel?). I list it to generate ideas. Averything listed obove should be able to fit under one of these headings. Getting started: What comes with the game Copy protection Mouse and other controls Tutorial Tactical Controls Preference Settup Campains Battle Generator/Building Custom Scenarios Tactical Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 What up guys!! 1. Tutorial section should be kinda in depth: an LOS demonstration for newbies perhaps and a detailed section on ambushes. 2. Be brief on the map making stuff, seems like BTS's interfaces are pretty easy to understand and use. 3. NO long dribble about historical overviews & time periods! A couple of sentences telling what CM1 covers. 4. IMO, the CD will probably have enough "operations & sceanrio briefing" information by itself-- just leave it out of the manual or be really brief. 4a. An extensive explanation of how "operations" function is probably needed though. The HQ command ratings should have a deeper explanation than just: "morale, combat, stealth etc." Tell the player how they effect unit performances specifically. A fast reference chart showing that a Volksgrenadier Battalion (when purchased) has 'x' SMG squads, 'y' Hvy SMG squads, 'z' 81 mm mortars etc etc would be nice. Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeekStrikeDestroy Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I also like to see designer's notes in manuals. Included should be the underlying philosophy of the game and a justification for the major design decisions that were made (ie why features are included or excluded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbg2112 Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I'd also like to see something ring-bound, or at least capable of being ring-bound (i.e,. shrink-wrapped hole-punched pages so I can put them in my own notebook, if that's what it takes to keep costs down). This was something a "real" game from a "real" games company did, and while I eventually gave up on the game because they still hadn't fixed it after a year's worth of patches, I liked the ring-bound manual. What's nice about it is that I can add articles on tactics or whatever, printed maps, etc. and keep it all together. Keep in mind, though -- I think this is nice to have, but having the game sooner is even nicer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 arn't you glad you asked! here's my only comment. i play golf online. many people have developed charts to make it more playable. what ends up happening is the game becomes a math excercise instead of what it was intended for, a golf sim. now you can say 'you don't have to use them' which is true, but when i play (using limited charts) i can play average or par golf. but nothing diminishes my enjoyment more, than an opponent shooting a ridiculous score of 18 under par BECAUSE OF CHART USEAGE. i want to know what an ATG is and maybe how it was used (in brief) but not, that if you set one up at 321 meters from the intersection with a 15degree elevation you are guarenteed a kill (and yes i know what bore-site is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I would like to see a bibliography featuring books as well as websites. Not many of us have the dough to get our own copies of WW2 manuals, translated histories, etc. and if they're online a URL section would be awfully nice. It would also be nice if there were some sample OoBs for us DYO'ers who want to make a reasonably accurate scenario right away, without spending weeks researching what units fought where (although we'll do that after the initial "playplayplayplay" frenzy wears off) Maybe show the org charts for one armored and one infantry regiment/division per nation depicted in CM (2nd SS Panzer, 3rd Armored, 30th Guards, etc etc) Perhaps also a chart that shows the "actual" footprint of each unit and the floor-area of the buildings available, so that we players can tell just how many infantry squads can be crammed into which buildings. I can't think of anything else right now, but I'm sure I will be back here. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also like to see designer's notes in manuals. Included should be the underlying philosophy of the game and a justification for the major design decisions that were made (ie why features are included or excluded).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ditto, one of the things I really liked about the old Avalon Hill board games was designer's notes section. Granted if you have been following this board for any length of time you will have been exposed to more designer's notes material than can ever be included in the manual, but it would still be a nice addition and might even cut down on the flood of "why is a squad represented by only 3 guys?" posts that are sure to follow release. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>sbg2112 I'd also like to see something ring-bound, or at least capable of being ring-bound (i.e,. shrink-wrapped hole-punched pages so I can put them in my own notebook, if that's what it takes to keep costs down).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yet again someone has read my mind, this would be a great feature and would probably be less expensive than having the thing bound. The only other thing I can think of is a quick reference for all of the commands and controls, this should include the page number or section number where the full description of the control is located. Probably you would want to have two reference pages one for the scenario editor and one for game play. ------------------ If something cannot be fixed by hitting it or by swearing at it, it wasn't worth saving anyway. [This message has been edited by Harold Jones (edited 12-30-99).] [This message has been edited by Harold Jones (edited 12-30-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 30, 1999 Author Share Posted December 30, 1999 Hey guys, thanks a lot for all the suggestions and excellent ideas. Everything is being looked at right now if it is feasible. Some of the things mentioned are already in, some won't be for sure (e.g. while doing your scenarios, DYO or editor, the units have availability already coded in, i.e. you can only choose what has been historically available at the time chosen for the scenario) Anyway, keep those ideas coming. Great stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 A lot of good suggestions above. Here are some things I think are key: * collect all the FAQs from this board and make sure their answers are somewhere in the manual in plain sight. This could be a formal FAQ list, or in the designer's notes, or sprinkled throughout the manual. If the answers to "why no bodies," "why only 3 men per squad," "why no general LOS tool," "why isn't my Tiger invulnerable," "why do my men stop firing at the target I designate and choose their own" and others we all know and love AREN'T in the manual, you can be sure we'll never be free of these issues on the board. * Detailed explanation of every available unit command. This shouldn't get into the mathematical models behind the commands, but should go into detail explaining how each affects fire, movement, morale, concealment and protection. Some of this information might also be presented in a small vignette/tutorial, but I really hate having to dig through pages of an example to find reference information that should rightly be centralized in its own section. * I think a general description of the included scenarios is useful (but you don't want to give too much away, either). How about this suggestion: put the scenario descriptions in a couple of electronic documents. One document just lists the scenario name, armies involved, attacker/defender roles, date and approximate size/length (company or battalion size, 20 turns). The other document is clearly labelled to indicate it contains detailed information, and lists OBs for each scenario, objectives, and so on. That way people that want to play through the scenarios blind can do so while still being able to make informed choices ("I feel like attacking with a company of Canadians today") and people that want a handy reference to exactly what's in the scenarios can have that as well. * As far as the historical overview goes....it has little or no value for me -- I've read a bunch of them already. But I think you probably need a section like this to set the stage for people that aren't well educated on the time period and events. Maybe start with a description of the war situation and state of the combatants, talk a bit about equipment, and then survey the general course of the war from Normandy to Berlin, mentioning significant battles/events. Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts