Not been playing since CMBO. Where to begin?

[PanzerBlitz]

Hi everyone,

Not sure this is the correct sub-forum, but since it's the most recently released title...

I played CMBO a looong time ago (and I think I played CMBB as well? or CMAK? Don't remember) and when CMSF was released it didn't interest me one bit (maybe because I live in a non-NATO European country so that conflict theatre seemed a bit "irrelevant" to me, in a way, if you know what I mean). Being mostly interested in WWII-era and thinking CM went down a path I wasn't interested in I let the series slip out of my mind and just forgot all about it.

By chance, just a couple of days ago, I met the only guy I ever played a couple of PBEM games against in CMBO and asked him.. "Soo.. what games are you playing these days?". He replied that he was still playing CM and there were a lot of new versions released. I got surprised and went back home to check, and was pleasantly surprised!

It seems there's been some generation changes in the series and that the old CM-games I knew about belong to something called CMx1 and that everybody is waiting for CMx3

My question is: Should I pick up all (or whatever games I find most interesting) in the newer series or are they all sort of obsolete now with Final Blitzkrieg just released? I actually enjoyed the diverse unit types available in the old CM that I get the impression has been slimmed down to allow a deeper focus instead of 1 billion different units. Still, I like a lot of variety.

Anyway... Any suggestions on where to pick up for someone returning from CMBO with primary interest in WWII?

 

[Abbasid111]

The nice thing about the CM2 series is that whatever new features are developed for one game they get patched, we they are applicable, to other games in the series.

As far as where to start it depends on where your interest lies. If you are an ost front guy then Red Thunder, covering Operation Narration, is the game for you. If you are a west front kind of guy then you have CMBN, or Final Blitzkrieg. 

If you like sun baked rolling hills and an earlier start (1943) then it is Fortress Italy.

The biggest bang for the buck, IMHO, is the CMBN Big Bundle. You get the base game, the Commonwealth and Market-Garden modules, hours and hours of play.

[Abbasid111]

And I would be happy to give you your first PBEM game when you have the itch. 

[Abbasid111]

Operation Bagration I mean...damn autocorrect! 

[John Kettler]

PanzerBlitz,

Welcome aboard!

The first thing to understand in coming from the first of what we call the CMx1 games, is that as fun as they were, by comparison, CMBO in particular, and to a lesser degree CMBB and CMAK, are practically beer and pretzels events. By contrast, any game you choose here under the current WW II titles is a full blown sim, and you will need considerable retraining.

First of all, squads no longer are simply units of so many firepower factors at range X. Instead, you are now going to be dealing with individual soldiers, though there are group commands to make things easier. Much of what was abstracted in CMBO is modeled discretely in the current titles. For example, the old drill of putting troops in the woods and knowing they'll be safe from observation if set back a certain distance is now gone. LOS is computed on what paths exist to your individual soldiers from a given location or set thereof. This can be quite a shock. I speak from painful experience on this. Action Squares are much smaller, resulting in greater terrain granularity both from that and much smaller elevation increments, too.

Vehicles have various components modeled, and when hit, a shotline model evaluates the projectile's effects or lack thereof. These things are tracked in a bunch of categories, at the component level. You can, for example, nibble an AFV to combat ineffectiveness by attacks which wear down its optics, mobility,  slice off the radio antenna, etc. This is a huge change from the way CMBO handled things. AFVs can voluntarily dismount the crew, then get back in later. Sometimes, a tank will get penetrated, but no one gets hurt. Still, it may freak out the crew, which then bails out. Once the tankers' nerves settle, they may then be ordered back to their tank. And since the men are now handled separately, you can do historical things like having the TC and someone to cover him dismount and scout forward--before putting the tank in harm's way. In a CMFB comic book format AAR, the American player did exactly that and consequently found the lurking enemy armor and was able to successfully slip into position and get off the all-important first shot as a result. 

There's obviously much more which could be said, but what you really need to know is that the workload is going to be significantly higher than you're used to, the number of moving parts dramatically larger, and the decisions are agonizing. At close range, whole formations can be shredded in little time. I lost most of a British platoon in about five minutes of hedgerow fighting, to give you some idea. 

Another important thing to note is that the omnibus ETO warfare kit allowing you to fight with a vast array of units, AFVs, light armor, soft-skins and guns is gone forever. Instead, you have a game covering a specific area and timeframe. Additional optional content via a Module provides new scenarios and adds units specific to what the Module covers, including troops, AFVs and other goodies. Finally, there are vehicle packs. These are grog items which didn't really justify inclusion in the primary game or modules. Presently, you can only play what you've bought for a given game, but BFC is going to implement a new feature in which everything one player has is also available to the other player! How's that grab you?

CMBN lets you fight the Normandy campaign for the US, but the CW Module adds the British, Canadians and the Free Poles to the mix. MG is that whole A Bridge Too Far business, and practically everything that goes with it--except gliders and Bailey bridges! CMBN presently has the only Vehicle Pack for all of the CMx2 WW II titles. Abbasid111 is absolutely right about CMBN having the greatest overall game possibilities. CMFI has only the GL Module (another one's coming), and CMFB just came out and therefore is base game only. CMFI lets you fight in a world considerably different than CMBN; one in which the Sherman is a big nasty beast, there is a lot of terrain relief and the Allies get to have camo paint, too. There are AFVs and vehicles in CMFI which are completely unique to it. And did I mention there are no Panzerfausts?! Makes things somewhat exciting for a German player used to having the tank smiter. CMFB lets you fight the Battle of the Bulge, but the Modules are, I believe, going to cover the war clear through to VE-Day. The British will be in a Module, methinks the firs tone. CMRT is the only game in town on the Eastern Front and cover the Strategic Operation Bagration, which resulted in the devastating Destruction of Army Group Center in the space of a month. CMRT will be getting a Module before CMFI does, since it has none presently. Patches, which fix various problems, sometimes long lists, have ever been and shall remain Free.

Happily, you don't have to fly blind in making your purchasing decision/s,  for there are demos available for all the games listed. Be highly wary of the CMBN Demo, since it has the ancient of days V 1.03. Consequently, it's radically different in a slew of areas compared to where CMBN is now. Instead, may I suggest you watch this? It's years more recent. Also, I forgot to mention Upgrades. These are paid improvements to the Game Engine and add no new content. You absolutely want these, for in them numerous improvements, including resolution boosts. I have an anemic video card on my 132 y.o. in cyber years late 2009 iMac, and the difference was staggering.
 

 

I hope you found this unplanned long discourse useful. Should you have any further questions, you have but to ask and people will flock to assist. Does your handle indicate you play/played the AH classic? If so, in order to get into the proper frame of mind, may I suggest you investigate your wardrobe options (BFC having none) at Achtung T-Shirt?

Abbasid111,

It was kind of you to offer him a PBEM, but I'm disappointed you corrected the CMRT title before I could quip about it! But your amusing malaprop was nothing compared to the potential gaffe I barely caught earlier over on the CMBS Forum. Referring to the Minister of Defense, I meant to say "no disrespect to the mighty MoD" as a preface to a word similar to his last name, but I instead wrote "no respect to the mighty MoD." Happily, I noticed and fixed it before I could give inadvertent offense to our Russian contingent by posting the original! As for autocorrect, you ought to see the terrible things Google's Bandini Mountain Voice-To-Text does. Seems I spend more time fixing its insane choices, removing "comma" when I wanted that punctuation mark. Weirdly, it lists "Kama" as the top of the options. It takes perfectly good dictation (seems to be largely deaf when listening to an adult male) and turns it into something utterly unlike what was said to it, frequently changing the fundamental message in the process. This thing is a diplomatic diaster just waiting to happen. The latest version's even worse.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by John Kettler

[MikeyD]

The CHEAPEST thing to do is download ALL the demos and play them until you've exhausted yourself. Then once you've got your gameplay muscle memory built up again purchase the full game of your favorite demo. CMRT, CMFB and CMFI each play VERY differently. Italians in Sicily are very different from American straggler groups in the Ardennes, which are very different from Soviet tank riders. Don't worry about which is the 'biggest' or the 'best' or 'most updated', just focus on which you think is most fun to play.

[PhilM]

6 hours ago, PanzerBlitz said:

Hi everyone,

....

My question is: Should I pick up all (or whatever games I find most interesting) in the newer series or are they all sort of obsolete now with Final Blitzkrieg just released?

....

Anyway... Any suggestions on where to pick up for someone returning from CMBO with primary interest in WWII?

 

Just to elaborate a little on the other answers, including John's comprehensive overview: the answer to your specific question (above, my bold) is "No!"

We are all never satisfied with what CM is giving us at any one moment, and are as you say awaiting "CMx3". But the backwards porting of developments in the current CMx2 engine mean that all the titles are, essentially, up to date but for some *relatively* minor changes not yet ported backwards.

Details on naming / numbering of versions that may help you out; all of the current CMx2 titles are at "Game Engine 3" status (confused yet?  ), but with different version numbers:

CMBN (retrospectively considered game engine 1, now at 3): latest version badged v3.12 (but NB John's comment about the Demo status);

CMFI (retrospectively considered game engine 2, now at 3): latest version badged v1.2;

CMRT (game engine 3): latest version badged v1.03;

CMFB (game engine 3): latest version badged v1.01.

 

Dive in!

FWIW, my favourite - because it's so different - is CMFI, but I'm sure that you'll find something you like in the Demos.

[Combatintman]

7 hours ago, PanzerBlitz said:

I played CMBO a looong time ago (and I think I played CMBB as well? or CMAK? Don't remember)

My question is: Should I pick up all (or whatever games I find most interesting) in the newer series or are they all sort of obsolete now with Final Blitzkrieg just released?

 

The answer is in bold ... particularly the first bit ... if you can't remember playing CMBB or CMAK my guess is that you weren't terribly interested in them.  Take a look at CMBN and CMFB and give the demos a spin.

[Aragorn2002]

Buy them all, PanzerBlitz, because sooner or later you will do that anyway. All games are very good and CMBN is as much fun as CMFB is. If you like variety and you have the money you're in for a treat. The only game I haven't bought is CMBS, but sooner or later (depends on the modules and mods) I will probably buy that too.

[womble]

Another note to be aware of re: demos is that the FI demo is frozen at v2, IIRC. Black Sea, Red Thunder and the FB demo are the current CMx2 v3.nn engine.

CMx3 is, as far as we, the punters, know, mostly a gleam in BFC's eye at this stage and CMx2 is the only vehicle going forward, and it's a big bus with room for lots more code yet!

[kevinkin]

Lot's of great advice. Consider watching youtube videos too. There are soooo many. You can get advice from the commentators or least some first hand on - the - fly impressions not found in the instruction manuals. If you like the way the FB demo runs on your current PC then you are technically good to go. 

Kevin

[PanzerBlitz]

Wow, lots of replies in a short time

The community seems nice here. Much nicer than in some other games (Yes, I play World of Tanks, way way way too much, because it's quicker, easier, more seductive...).

@Abbasid111 I like the early years as well as the later. I'm not too picky about which front to play as I'm interested in basically the entire European theatre, but I think the Italian theatre might be a good place for me to start. Regarding PBEM.. .You like seal clubbing?  Eh.. We'll see.. I play pretty much solo, but who knows. Thanks for the offer

@John Kettler Wow, nice lengthy reply. Thanks! The detailed penetration calculations seem to find their ways into more and more games, or at least I've seen them in WW2Online which I played a lot a while back and also in War Thunder that I played a bit until I got tired of spawn camping. The way you describe crews ability to abandon and later return to their vehicle sounds familiar, but I wonder if I'm not confusing it with the old Steel Panthers series. Similar mechanic, different game engine  I'm prepared to take the time to try and learn the game again, as I'm sure I would've had to do even if I was only returning to CMBO.

Btw, yes, I played PanzerBlitz. I bought it back in -85 or something. I was only 10 years old at the time and none of my friends were interested in playing with me, so I had to wait until I did military service 10 years later until I got some opponents. After that, computer games took over and I actually got rid of the game, which I deeply regret now. Not that I'd play it again today, but it would still be nice to have it...

That achtung t-shirt site was great I have to tell you though, some of the things there... Maybe the culture is a bit different in the US. I live in Malmö, Sweden. If I was to put the balkenkreuz sticker on my car and wear WWII Germany themed T-shirts I would seriously fear for my life, at least in some parts of town. Funny thing is how people here say "we like different" and "ethnic diversity enriches" etc... These two T-shirts made me laugh out loud

http://achtungtshirt.com/Celebrate-Diversity-Ww2-German-Panzer-Tiger-Tank-D-Day-Tee-P4145813.aspx

http://achtungtshirt.com/Luftwaffe-Ww2-Fighter-Jet-Planes-Me262-Bf-109-Messerschmitt-P2503917.aspx

They're "so right" but "so wrong" at the same time

OK back on topic..

@MikeyD Life's too short for demos! I think I'll just pick one of the games and give it a go, probably CMFI. It's a good recommendation to get the demos and see which one I like most, but I'm afraid they'll take so long to get into I might as well just buy one of the games and start from there. Thanks.

@PhilM Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. I read a bit about it before but it was somewhat confusing. But to put it short, all CMx2 games are engine 3 versions so from that perspective it doesn't matter, as long as I buy the corresponding upgrade (if not included in the base game). Correct?

@Combatintman Heh, well.. The CMBO CD was the only one I actually found as I looked through my old games last night so that's the only one I'm sure I played. I might have played all three of them actually. I think I'm gonna enjoy all the European theatre themed games

@Aragorn2002 Buy them all? I know I will. Just trying to resist buying them all at once! Better to try and focus on one first though.

@womble Ah yes, the problem of keeping the demos up to date. That can actually be one reason not to get the demos as they may be slightly misleading  I'm sure they're just fine, but like I said, I'm probably just going to go ahead and go for CMFI

@kevinkin Yep, lots of good advice here! I watched a couple of youtube vids already but I'm gonna see what else I can find. Technically I think my computer should had no problems running any of the games. I've got an i7-4790 4GHz, 32GB RAM and nVidia 970GTX.

Thanks to everybody for your replies. I do have questions about one more thing though: Campaigns

I have a very vague memory of CMx1 games not having any kind of "real" campaign mode with core units. Seems you had to use some external tools to make it into some sort of meta game with setups used by the actual game itself to kind of simulate campaign functionality. Or maybe I'm confusing it with other games again? It was so long ago... I've searched this forum a bit and have found threads suggesting there are campaigns in which you sometimes play different parts of your core force in different battles, sometimes progressing with them to other battles, sometimes not. I take it the campaign system is more integrated now? Or maybe it always was?

 

[Abbasid111]

I don't know about the CM1 campaign system since I am only familiar with the current CM2 games. Usually you have a core group or unit that you command through the campaign. Sometimes other attachments to your core command will appear and you won't always have your total command together in every battle.

A lot of campaigns advance depending on how well you did in the previous battle. If you win you play battle A but if you lose you play battle b.

Also check out user made mods, scenarios and campaigns. fortress Italy is one of my favorites out of the WW2 titles.

[Erwin]

In CM1 all units in a campaign are effectively "core".  The designer can select levels of resupply, replacement (as well as what reinforcements will arrive and where) in future missions.  But the resupply and replacement level applies to all units.  I enjoyed the CM1 campaigns where you play on a section of a much larger map, and the result of each mission determines how far forwards (or to the rear) the next mission will start at.

[Agua]

Yeah, just buy them all.  They all play the same.  Tank riders haven't been incorporated into the CMBN & CMFI family yet (and may not be simply b/c of the effort involved to add to those early models), but other than that, all the families (CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMBS & CMFB  are within a patch of the latest release.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Agua

[PhilM]

4 hours ago, PanzerBlitz said:

Wow, lots of replies in a short time

@Abbasid111The community seems nice here.

@John Kettler

@MikeyD

@PhilM Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. I read a bit about it before but it was somewhat confusing. But to put it short, all CMx2 games are engine 3 versions so from that perspective it doesn't matter, as long as I buy the corresponding upgrade (if not included in the base game). Correct?

@Combatintman@Aragorn2002

@womble

@kevinkin

Thanks to everybody for your replies. I do have questions about one more thing though: Campaigns

I have a very vague memory of CMx1 games not having any kind of "real" campaign mode with core units. Seems you had to use some external tools to make it into some sort of meta game with setups used by the actual game itself to kind of simulate campaign functionality. Or maybe I'm confusing it with other games again? It was so long ago... I've searched this forum a bit and have found threads suggesting there are campaigns in which you sometimes play different parts of your core force in different battles, sometimes progressing with them to other battles, sometimes not. I take it the campaign system is more integrated now? Or maybe it always was?

 

On the latest version thing: it was / is certainly BF's intention - and I think they have achieved it - that if you now buy any title, you get the latest version as at the point of purchase: no need for further upgrades or patches until more are released.

So for example, if you buy CMFI (good choice!!), you get v1.2 / game engine 3 by default, even though purchasers of the first version of the game have had to buy upgrades to get to that point ... make sense? Also, if you can get (I think so: haven't checked the store) a bundle of CMFI plus the Gustav Line add-on module, you'll have all the CMFI content currently available, and at the latest version.

The titles all have stand alone battles and linked-battle campaigns built in, as well as a quick battle generator.

You also should try looking at some mods for vehicle skins, uniforms, sounds, graphic effects ... and most of all for the in-battle UI, which does not show the game at its best. Look here:

http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/

Look for Juju's UI mods to improve the look of the interface no end ...

Also check out user-made scenarios:

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/

And if you like to play PBEM battles, via Dropbox rather than email, I'd suggest using Combat Mission Helper (CMH) to manage the "in and out" of the game files to drop box, available here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jvh9sx2zla2k0eq/S6LZaVAw_7

Hope this is of some use to get started!

 

 

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, PanzerBlitz said:

I'm prepared to take the time to try and learn the game again, as I'm sure I would've had to do even if I was only returning to CMBO.

That's good. I wouldn't want to spring a "gotcha" on you after you have put out your money, so be forewarned that the initial learning curve is very steep. These are complex games and there is a lot to know in order to play well. When CMBN was released there was a lot of groaning about the learning curve, including by yours truly. But you sound like you have a healthy enthusiasm and if you hang in there and keep at it that should pull you through. And as has been already said, there is a lot of help here. Reasonable questions usually get reasonable replies.

5 hours ago, PanzerBlitz said:

Btw, yes, I played PanzerBlitz. I bought it back in -85 or something.

Heh. I got mine in 1972, but I didn't so much play it as study it, as I did with most of the 100+ games I purchased between 1964 and 1992. Those were paper games. When I began buying computer games around 1993 I played nearly all of those.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing more of you in these pages.

Michael

[Sublime]

If you get FI id consider the gustav line module essential. It extends rhe fame from 3 mnths to 11. And adds so many formations to both sides. Best module for any one game imo.

Fb is brilliant. Love it. My love is WW2 but I adore BS. Its really fun.

SF is the oldest and Id recommend that and CM A least.

CMBN is probably most polished. It has a module addin SS Cmmnwealth Luftwaffe etc. Theres also a module for Market Garden and other battles taking BN from June to Sept or Oct 44. Theres also a vehicle pack and a battle pack for this game.

FB i love and captures the Bulge feel really well. It covers not just the bulge either - oct 44 to jan 45. So nordwind. Aachen. Siegfriend line. Alsace lorraine etc.

RT is great bc Ost is my favorire front but actually so far my least fav ww2 game besides FI ( vanila FI ) idk why cant put my finger on it.

Id also like to help you if u want a pbem where we can openly discuss what happens so you can learn about the game

[PanzerBlitz]

@Michael Emrys 1972? I wasn't even born then  I get the feeling I'm a junior around here, heh.

Thanks for your friendly and helpful replies everybody! I bought the CMFI+Gustav Line bundle plus the 3.0 upgrade for $75 tonight. Downloaded and installed. It's getting a bit late here in Sweden to start going through the manual right now I think (1:20 am) but I guess this officially makes this thread off-topic as this is the CMFB sub forum

And thanks for the PBEM offers! I'll keep them in mind if/when I feel it's time to take that step.

Thanks again!

[Abbasid111]

Nice! Look forward to hours of enjoyment with your new purchase.

It is now official, you have been assimilated 

[Bulletpoint]

On 5/6/2016 at 3:40 AM, PanzerBlitz said:

My question is: Should I pick up all (or whatever games I find most interesting) in the newer series or are they all sort of obsolete now with Final Blitzkrieg just released?

The older CM games are not obsolete, as after CM:Battle for Normandy they are basically all the same game with a few regional features (tank riders, flame throwers, etc.). It's not like in the good old days when newer games blew the older ones out of the water.

Just get the game that takes place in the time and place you find most interesting.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

The older CM games are not obsolete, as after CM:Battle for Normandy they are basically all the same game with a few regional features (tank riders, flame throwers, etc.).

And as previously stated, the older games do get updated to the latest standard.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

-

Edited June 6, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[John Kettler]

PanzerBlitz,

Glad you've found something you like and have taken the plunge. Nor was I surprised to see all the helpful people who arrived in your OP and chimed in with valuable advice and insights. Thanks also for confirming my gut was right on your having a connection to AH's pioneering tactical WW II game.

Michael Emrys,

Evidently, I didn't have so much as a smattering of your wargame budget, so what I did have or have access to got played heavily, sometimes to the point of counter unreadability! Such was the fate of those for SPI's SSN. But not only did I play Red Star White Star, Mech War 77 and Firefight practically to death on the modern land battle side of things, but they helped me land my first job in military aerospace! It was from them that I learned the 130 mm M-46 gun was and Russian Army and Front-level weapon. Being able to produce that tidbit mid-interview when a retired Army Lt Colonel popped in perplexed on why he couldn't find it the long range gun in DIVARTY was doubtless what helped land me my first job as a de facto Soviet Threat Analyst. Never hurts to show the department manager of Operations Analysis, the assistant manager and all the section heads you actually do know your stuff when in the very uncomfortable and intimidating interview hot seat!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Evidently, I didn't have so much as a smattering of your wargame budget, so what I did have or have access to got played heavily, sometimes to the point of counter unreadability! Such was the fate of those for SPI's SSN. But not only did I play Red Star White Star, Mech War 77 and Firefight practically to death on the modern land battle side of things, but they helped me land my first job in military aerospace! It was from them that I learned the 130 mm M-46 gun was and Russian Army and Front-level weapon. Being able to produce that tidbit mid-interview when a retired Army Lt Colonel popped in perplexed on why he couldn't find it the long range gun in DIVARTY was doubtless what helped land me my first job as a de facto Soviet Threat Analyst. Never hurts to show the department manager of Operations Analysis, the assistant manager and all the section heads you actually do know your stuff when in the very uncomfortable and intimidating interview hot seat!

Great story! It warms my heart to know that all these hundreds, nay thousands, of hours of wargaming paid off now and then. Y'know, it has occurred to me now and then that if I had finished my degree (I was a philosophy major) I might have ended up working for the Rand Corporation. You and I might have been in the same line of work. But my feet found a different path, and all in all I am just as glad. The life I found was by and large healthier and more rewarding, if not perhaps as remunerative.

Michael