Artillery

[Ivanov]

I'd be interested to hear from more experienced players, how do they see the role of the artillery in CMRT? In CMBS, my weapon of choice is precession artillery and forward observers with UAVs. But if no precession munitions are available, in general I think that the artillery barrage is merely a nice looking display of fireworks that may occasional cause a casualty or two. Obviously the precession strike capability is non existent in RT, so I'm wondering if artillery is important at all or if it's a secondary asset? What I can think of as important, is using the smoke screen to conceal the movement. Other than that, in general the artillery is slow to respond, inaccurate and with small direct impact on the enemy. How does the artillery suppression in RT works and for how long it's effects have an effect on the infantry?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Ivanov

[AttorneyAtWar]

Why do you think artillery has a "small" impact on the enemy?

It was the number one killer during the actual war and if used properly is probably the same in game, 81mm mortars are deadly accurate, 105mm howitzers and above are destructive when on target and rockets just murder everyone. Artillery is great at suppressing and killing infantry that is not dug in, and if they are dug in they won't be too happy for some time afterwords if there not dead.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Think of it this way, the effects of artillery remain equally valuable, but the amount of munitions required to achieve those effects is much higher.  So using artillery to suppress/stun/kill the enemy on an objective is a great idea, it'll just take 20-40 shells instead of the 5-10 it takes in CMBS.

[Ivanov]

In real wars, especially in WW2 and WW2 the weapons were notoriously inaccurate and required expenditure of tons of ammunition to kill one enemy combatant. The suppression effects of the WW1 barrage lasted for about 2 minutes after the artillery fire was lifted. That's why most of the subsequent infantry attacks were ending in slaughter of the advancing infantry. The soldiers didn't fire to kill and so on. But let's focus on the game not the real life;) 

Time again, I'm coming to the conclusion that the most effective assets in CM series are the tanks. They have a great firepower, their fire is accurate, they are mobile and well protected. Comparing to them artillery looks less spectacular - it requires spotters, takes time to impact and as I said in the initial post - based on my experience - it's actual killing capacity is not that great. In CMBS I don't even bother moving the vehicles from the area under the barrage, I just mount the infantry back into the APCs. So I'm wondering what is the main merit of artillery in the game and how should it be employed tactically?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Ivanov

[Ivanov]

Think of it this way, the effects of artillery remain equally valuable, but the amount of munitions required to achieve those effects is much higher.  So using artillery to suppress/stun/kill the enemy on an objective is a great idea, it'll just take 20-40 shells instead of the 5-10 it takes in CMBS.

Good point. How persistent are the effects of the barrage? Do I really have few minutes before the enemy manages to recover from the shell shock?

[Michael Emrys]

To get the historical effects of artillery in an average sized CM encounter, IMO you have to budget for a pretty substantial amount of it, like maybe a whole battalion or two. Then you can start to talk about serious consequences for the enemy. As to what it is good for, if you have to move your infantry on foot across any significant open ground to get close enough to where their own weapons become effective, laying a barrage on suspected or known enemy positions can force them to keep their heads down while you are moving.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Good point. How persistent are the effects of the barrage? Do I really have few minutes before the enemy manages to recover from the shell shock?

Unless a unit has taken enough casualties to break, the effects of being shelled will usually wear off in a turn or three. So you want the shells to keep falling until your own men are in danger from them.

Michael

[Ivanov]

To get the historical effects of artillery in an average sized CM encounter, IMO you have to budget for a pretty substantial amount of it, like maybe a whole battalion or two. Then you can start to talk about serious consequences for the enemy. As to what it is good for, if you have to move your infantry on foot across any significant open ground to get close enough to where their own weapons become effective, laying a barrage on suspected or known enemy positions can force them to keep their heads down while you are moving.

Michael

+1

Kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks!

[IanL]

Lots to cover there. I admit I like precision artillery in CMBS too. When I have it I use it. 

Once the precision ammo is gone or in ww2 here are some thoughts.

On defence. Having TRPs is helpful for sure but you don't have to have them. The key is to do one if two things. Know where your enemy is moving and call a strike in early on their route of advance. Or my preferred method, engage them and when they stop to deal with your defense you hold them up while you make call. To do that you need to protect your best callers. They might be the FO or the mortar platoon HQ. Always make sure they are behind a screen and behind cover if they are not working. For long calls you can move them back and hide while waiting for the spotting rounds to arrive. My preference is to make the calls maximin in length that way you can cancel or adjust then as needed. I would rather have a few to many rounds than not enough. If you are using church towers or other land marks for observation posts be careful and leave or otherwise hide from time to time. Your enemy may (will if it is me) target those locations with area fire. I have had a tank assigned to just hose down and blast a church tower an entire game just to make sure it did not get used for FOs or snipers.

[gnarly]

 My preference is to make the calls maximin in length that way you can cancel or adjust then as needed. I would rather have a few to many rounds than not enough.

That there is very good advice. I will remember to use that when FB drops.

[Warts 'n' all]

A very valid point from IanL... If I see a church tower in any battle, it is the first thing to get blasted by my tanks.

[IanL]

On the attack there are a couple of more options that I sometimes use. For preplanned you can plan where your assault will go and set things up to hit a target area just before you get there. Timing that with no information on the enemy is tricky and I usually only find that works well with an object that is close to your starting position. You can create a plannned smoke screen for sure but I nearly never do since timing is so important with smoke. Another useful role for preplanned artillery is to harrass your opponents movement paths. It can be very helpful if you cut off part of his force from coming to the aid of the location you plan to attack.

During the battle you can use your artillery to hit points of resistance. For example an at gun, bunker or a trench line. As you advance or scout and you find resistance stop and drop some artillery on it. Warning though this is when I would be plotting a mission on the attacker if I were on defense. So, watch for spotting rounds or hold back most of your attack force while you wait for the shells to arrive. This is also a good time to consider smoke as well. If you have an area with resistance you can drop some HE on it and time some smoke to cover your advance from the defence's supporting troops before you send your men in.

[IanL]

On the attack there are a couple of more options that I sometimes use. For preplanned you can plan where your assault will go and set things up to hit a target area just before you get there. Timing that with no information on the enemy is tricky and I usually only find that works well with an object that is close to your starting position. You can create a plannned smoke screen for sure but I nearly never do since timing is so important with smoke. Another useful role for preplanned artillery is to harrass your opponents movement paths. It can be very helpful if you cut off part of his force from coming to the aid of the location you plan to attack.

During the battle you can use your artillery to hit points of resistance. For example an at gun, bunker or a trench line. As you advance or scout and you find resistance stop and drop some artillery on it. Warning though this is when I would be plotting a mission on the attacker if I were on defense. So, watch for spotting rounds or hold back most of your attack force while you wait for the shells to arrive. This is also a good time to consider smoke as well. If you have an area with resistance you can drop some HE on it and time some smoke to cover your advance from the defence's supporting troops before you send your men in.

[A co]

You can also use arty to influence your opponent's decision making, without needing great accuracy or a lot of kills.

Will he keep his infantry in a treeline under harassing fire which might never let up?

Will he move a critical irreplaceable team (FO, gun or HQ) into an area where where random treebursts are happening?

Can he tell the difference between the fall of spotting rounds and a harassment mission? 

TRP's are also very useful to bring in a mission and then use LOS to adjust fire to where you really need it- 'improvised precision artillery'.

[Bozowans]

Artillery can be incredibly destructive in this game.

I like to call in very long bombardments using very low rates of fire, usually at the harass or maybe the light setting depending on the situation. If I have four guns in one of my off-map batteries, I might just use one or two tubes during a mission. Then I can keep a barrage going for a very long time, sometimes for the length of the entire scenario if I have enough ammo. The game is very slow-paced, and I don't often see a need for fast bombardments.

I think the most devastating barrage I've ever seen was in a CMBN scenario, during one of the campaigns. I was the British defending against an SS battalion. I had a couple batteries of heavy off-map guns and a few TRPs. The SS had to run across a few wheat fields and then reach a long line of low hedges at the end in order to fire on my positions. I had a feeling they would mass their troops behind that hedgeline for a base of fire and staging point for their assault. I put down a TRP on each end of the hedgeline, slightly inside the wheat fields, so I could draw a linear bombardment line between them, from one TRP to the other, like a curtain in front of my position.

When they started streaming across the fields, I called in all of my guns, on harass mode, using airbursting shells. The barrage was slow and lasted like 15-20 minutes, and they walked right into it. An entire SS company was annihilated, and another took heavy losses. The attack was shattered and I took almost no casualties during that scenario. I was kind of stunned when the scenario ended and I got to scroll around the field looking at all the bodies, almost all of them from the shelling.

When I'm attacking, I like to call in point target missions on harass mode. I'll destroy one foxhole/gun position and then adjust the same mission over and over to walk the shells onto new targets. I rarely call in heavier bombardments unless I'm playing as the Russians, since their artillery is so much less responsive.

If you call in a heavy, intense barrage onto a line of foxholes for example, you might hit a couple of guys when the first shells impact, but the rest of the enemy will drop down into their holes and wait out the rest of the barrage. The shells are wasted unless you get a rare direct hit or if you have assault troops already waiting nearby, ready to take advantage of the suppression.

However, if you have shells hitting intermittently over the course of 5, 10 minutes or longer, it can be deadly. The enemy will keep popping their heads up out of their holes between shells only for another one to land nearby 30 seconds later, spraying shrapnel into their faces while they're sitting up in their holes. They'll duck back down, and then the suppression will wear off and they'll pop back up again only for another shell to hit. 

Having random shells falling amidst the enemy over a very long period of time will also help your infantry get the upper hand in firefights throughout the course of the game.

[womble]

The "call a long, slow, low tubecount barrage early, and adjust the mission as new targets need servicing" method is an invaluable aid to using heavy, long call-time arty modules, whether you're on attack or defense.

If I'm attacking, and I've got arty, I'll tend to put a broad harassing mission on any urban objectives. If I've got TRPs, they might be placed so I can walk the mission around the town without having to be underneath it...  Starting the mission with a pre-planned call, possibly with a delay at an area in defilade from my setup zone saves on the number of TRPs I need, cos then I don't need to TRP the back field so much and I can bring the barrage to the front of what my observer can see using eyes, and move it back into the middle of the town using strategically placed TRPs.

I tend to prefer to use mortars on-map in direct lay. At contact ranges they're fast into action, pinpoint accurate (as they ought to be) and devastating.

[kevinkin]

Not to change the topic toooo much: but any tactical tips of setting up the AI support targets given the options allowed in the editor? In general and  then Urban vs rural. 

Thanks

Kevin

[JasonC]

Bozonwans - be advised, the AI will "walk right into" an annihilating barrage, but human players just won't.  If you don't surprise them, and pin them down with the first flight of shells, they will be elsewhere 2 minutes later.  Stationary barrages don't hurt human players, unless they are very large in footprint (e.g. barrages by lots of small rocket modules can't really be avoided, because their impact zone is half the map).

[simon21]

I've played against people who are very good with the in game artillery.

You have to think of the artillery as an area denial tool.  It is extremely useful, if you match it up effectively against the right enemy.

It isn't for killing the enemy unless you can force to enemy to hold their ground.

It's more about making a statement that an enemy can't occupy key terrain unless they are willing to accept significant casualties.  

A lot of what these people have said is correct.  Pre-planned barrages are important.  TRP's are important.  Getting your best observer to a good position is important.

It's a thinking mans weapon.  You have to anticipate where your enemy will be in a few turns, as opposed to knowing. 

 

 

[Bozowans]

Bozonwans - be advised, the AI will "walk right into" an annihilating barrage, but human players just won't.  If you don't surprise them, and pin them down with the first flight of shells, they will be elsewhere 2 minutes later.  Stationary barrages don't hurt human players, unless they are very large in footprint (e.g. barrages by lots of small rocket modules can't really be avoided, because their impact zone is half the map).

That's certainly true. I've only played against a human player a couple of times. I would imagine that when playing against a human, a harassing barrage with a low rate of fire would be good for area denial over a very long period of time. But would that be more effective than trying to call a quick, intense barrage on his men before they can get away? I guess that would depend on the scenario.

[MOS:96B2P]

Artillery can be incredibly destructive in this game.

<SNIP>  if you have shells hitting intermittently over the course of 5, 10 minutes or longer, it can be deadly. The enemy will keep popping their heads up out of their holes between shells only for another one to land nearby 30 seconds later, spraying shrapnel into their faces while they're sitting up in their holes. They'll duck back down, and then the suppression will wear off and they'll pop back up again only for another shell to hit. 

 

This is a good description of what I have observed in game and this tactic works well.  A partial counter to this is to place troops in foxholes on the Hide command during a barrage.  They will not look up as often.  However if they are not looking up and shooting they are not interdicting your maneuver with fire and that still works in your favor.   

The "call a long, slow, low tube count barrage early, and adjust the mission as new targets need servicing" method is an invaluable aid to using heavy, long call-time arty modules, whether you're on attack or defense.

<SNIP>

I tend to prefer to use mortars on-map in direct lay. At contact ranges they're fast into action, pinpoint accurate (as they ought to be) and devastating.

This is a great TACSOP and I have been using it with good results since the first time I read a post (a few years ago) you made about it.  Thank you.

The direct lay I found is good for light mortars especially the US 60mm.  Do you also use medium mortars in direct lay or just light?  I have not tried this with the mediums. 

[IanL]

This is a good description of what I have observed in game and this tactic works well.  A partial counter to this is to place troops in foxholes on the Hide command during a barrage. 

Yes, hiding in foxholes is very effective against taking casualties from artillery.  Just don't forget you gave your men the hide command...

 

The direct lay I found is good for light mortars especially the US 60mm.  Do you also use medium mortars in direct lay or just light?  I have not tried this with the mediums. 

Yes, it works for 81mm mortars too.  My personal preference is to have medium mortars off map so they can have more ammo but it I have them on map I will use direct fire from them if I can. 

[Ivanov]

Some great points and tips here gentlemen. What striked me most, is that few of you stated that a intermittent barrage is more effective, than a continuous, heavy barrage. I've recently read a book called "Brains and Bullets", where the author also claims, that on a real battlefield the uncertainty of a intermittent barrage ( shells falling every minute or two ), has the greatest impact on the morale, thus it's most effective in suppressing enemy troops.

[Artemis258]

Forests. If there's any substantial wooded area, particularly one that might be defended by those tank-riding pepeshe rooski illegitimate sons of goats, I want at least 3 minutes of high intensity HE fire on the whole bloody thing before advancing. A platoon of med mortars per 100msq, minimum. Basically I don't clear forests, I clear matchstick factories!   

[gnarly]

On 21/03/2016 at 4:49 PM, Artemis258 said:

Forests. If there's any substantial wooded area, particularly one that might be defended by those tank-riding pepeshe rooski illegitimate sons of goats, I want at least 3 minutes of high intensity HE fire on the whole bloody thing before advancing. A platoon of med mortars per 100msq, minimum. Basically I don't clear forests, I clear matchstick factories!   

Noted if I ever play you in the WW2 era...